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some plague rats posted:...what? What fields are you picturing when you say "all fields"? "All academic fields" you could maybe make the argument, but everything...? Even if there's no practical use in a job, computers are universal enough that a basic survey course would be appropriate strictly from a broad understanding of how the world works purpose of education.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:30
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I mean when I hear "teaching people basic programming" what level of school are we talking? From what I understand it's becoming more common in elementary through highschool and that seems as good of an endeavor as teaching any maths or sciences. As a course in college/uni, I'll probably just repeat my point about logical problem solving being a good skill. some plague rats posted:I have no idea. Why do I need to know that? We have a whole department of people who studied computer programming in depth who make it work and fix it and I don't see how me being taught basic fiddling would be useful compared to having them do it. They don't need to know how to run lines or replace poles or clear trees or any part of my job, why would I need to know how to do theirs? This really does feel like a solution in search of a problem But again, it's more broad strokes that I think are beneficial. It goes the other way too - there's a lot of computer touchers that could have used more stuff like humanities or social studies to balance out the pure-logic skills.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:32
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There's like a billion repetitive tasks people do for hours every day that can automated by a simple script. I have literally done this in various jobs. Edit: For reference, I can't program poo poo, but I can recognize when something looks script-able and google. Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:37 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 05:35
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some plague rats posted:Can you give an example of two of what you mean by this? Calculus opens up a better understanding of the physical world. I remember taking physics and calculus in high school at the same time, and once I understood the basics of calculus the physics made so much more sense. Even something simple like velocity being the derivative of position and acceleration being the derivative of velocity. some plague rats posted:I have no idea. Why do I need to know that? We have a whole department of people who studied computer programming in depth who make it work and fix it and I don't see how me being taught basic fiddling would be useful compared to having them do it. They don't need to know how to run lines or replace poles or clear trees or any part of my job, why would I need to know how to do theirs? This really does feel like a solution in search of a problem Because the purpose of education is not just to give you job skills. A history major should take calculus for the same reason an engineer should take a history class.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:38
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DeadlyMuffin posted:Because the purpose of education is not just to give you job skills. A history major should take calculus for the same reason an engineer should take a history class. If that's the case, why programming? Why not carpentry or wiring or other things that will actually prove useful for the rest of your life? What do we base it on?
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Aug 30, 2022 05:43
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Programming gives you a basic understanding on how computers work and what things are simple to do, and whatnot. And you will be spending a huge amount of time on computers no matter what you're doing. Let me tell you how absolutely awful lawyers are at using word processors.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:46
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Clarste posted:And you will be spending a huge amount of time on computers no matter what you're doing. This is a myopically white collar take?
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Aug 30, 2022 05:49
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some plague rats posted:If that's the case, why programming? Why not carpentry or wiring or other things that will actually prove useful for the rest of your life? What do we base it on? The objective isn't to teach programming as a skill so you can go program things. The objective is to give a better understanding of how computers work through understanding some of the most basic digital logic concepts that underpin all of it.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:53
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some plague rats posted:This is a myopically white collar take? You literally just told us every job you do is tracked from a computer that tells you what needs to be done next.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:55
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Jarmak posted:The objective isn't to teach programming as a skill so you can go program things. The objective is to give a better understanding of how computers work through understanding some of the most basic digital logic concepts that underpin all of it. Yeah I get that. Why always computers though? Why not household electrics? Why not car maintenance? Why not basic carpentry? These are all things you're going to encounter underpinning everything. Why the focus on computers always?
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Aug 30, 2022 05:56
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Jarmak posted:You literally just told us every job you do is tracked from a computer that tells you what needs to be done next. And? I spend five minutes in the morning looking at the ipad to see where I'm going and five minutes to close out the job. Is ten minutes a day at most "a huge amount of time on computers"? And that's just my side of things. The vegetation and maintenance crews just have a big whiteboard in the yard. Not a great gotcha.
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Aug 30, 2022 05:58
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some plague rats posted:If that's the case, why programming? Why not carpentry or wiring or other things that will actually prove useful for the rest of your life? What do we base it on? Do you see how your question implicitly states that the subject I was talking about is useless? It's tactless. Carpentry and wiring are great, practical skills that more people should be taught. But I draw a bit of a distinction between practical skills like those and something like history or calculus that give you more of an insight into how the world works and why. I was responding specifically to the question about calculus, but a very basic programming class would help someone understand how the tools around them are built and function. A history class won't help me repair my house, and carpentry won't help me understand why the world is the way it is, or guide how I vote and participate in society. I don't have DeadlyMuffin's One True Curriculum (tm), but in general I see a benefit to a wide range of subjects and in helping people develop the tools to understand how the world around them works, and why. That's 100% independent of job skills, I believe we as a society are better off if more people have the toolbox to understand the world around them. DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Aug 30, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 06:00
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some plague rats posted:If that's the case, why programming? Why not carpentry or wiring or other things that will actually prove useful for the rest of your life? What do we base it on? That said, I did have an electronics course in my Comp Sci program where we did do some wiring stuff, albeit not your typical electrical wiring, but it also taught aspects of logic and coding-adjacent concepts. You mentioned household electronics and I think that's a good point. I think there is very much an argument to be made about knowing how stuff you use every day works, and how you might be able to repair it on your own. That said, I think it's going to be less likely to come up as a tangent to most jobs. And yeah, maybe computer programming is not going to be useful for blue collar work, but if you're independent, coding or software skills might be useful if you want to manage aspects of your own business like setting a website or any kind of online presence, or need to basically do any kind of computer touching as part of the business. Maybe you need to set up inventory software, or use a database. There's a ton of stuff that helps and simplifies these days, and you could certainly always farm it out, but again, it's still a really helpful skill in an age where so many things relate to computers.
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Aug 30, 2022 06:00
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some plague rats posted:Yeah I get that. Why always computers though? Why not household electrics? Why not car maintenance? Why not basic carpentry? These are all things you're going to encounter underpinning everything. Why the focus on computers always? We're going in circles because you seem to be defining the only type of knowledge that has value as practical skills. You ask for someone to explain how knowledge that isn't a practical skill can be useful to you, but the only answer you accept is in the form of practical skills that knowledge gives you.
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Aug 30, 2022 06:14
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there's enough computer touchers in the world, it's more fun learning to juggle
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Aug 30, 2022 07:10
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Given how we have multiple dumb techbro threads, I'm not sure we want more people with just enough knowledge to be dangerously stupid.
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Aug 30, 2022 07:25
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After reading all these posts about programming, I'm kind of wondering if people are confusing "programming" with "general computer knowledge"? I can be a Python master for example, and that's not going to mean I know how to use Excel or Word very well (someone correct me if I'm wrong) or learn them easily because I'm a master programmer. Nor would it help if I had an Ipad that bricked on me, as another poster used as an example. General computer knowledge on the other hand is most definitely a good thing to know for an incredibly wide range of jobs including blue collar work. Believe it or not, not everyone knows the simple act of browsing folder and file structures in Windows. Especially younger people who's "computer" experience has been mostly smartphones and tablets that you can use without ever having to mess with the file system and in Apples case is almost completely hidden away.
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Aug 30, 2022 07:53
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well yeah, thats because computer class did infact become programming 101 and babys first Hello World program. no science , math, or philosophy history/context on how CS came into existence. schools assume you know how to type, you know how to "research (aka how to not poo poo fake news, from not shitfake news, bias etc etc)". there's a bunch of other computer related deficits here. just imagine a fractral of ignorance.
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Aug 30, 2022 08:09
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some plague rats posted:This is a myopically white collar take? If you work in a grocery store like half your job is bugfixing the self-checkout lanes.
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Aug 30, 2022 08:51
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Jarmak posted:The objective isn't to teach programming as a skill so you can go program things. The objective is to give a better understanding of how computers work through understanding some of the most basic digital logic concepts that underpin all of it. i don't disagree but that's closer to logic-based math problems than anything specific to computer programming. Clarste posted:If you work in a grocery store like half your job is bugfixing the self-checkout lanes. i took 'programming' to mean 'coding', if it's just tech troubleshooting then yes, we all likely do it within our jobs. but i think the utility of knowing actual coding concepts is limited. DeadlyMuffin posted:Do you see how your question implicitly states that the subject I was talking about is useless? It's tactless. the utility in learning about carpentry or wiring is not about knowing how to do a specific task, but why its done in the way it's done. Much the same as learning the basics of programming.
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Aug 30, 2022 11:07
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weird vanilla posted:Math is its own kettle of fish because of the poor way the K-12 curriculum is handled. One of my students' favorite assignments in the first year seminar courses I've taught is reading "A Mathematician's Lament" and getting to trash on the way they're taught math. After some examples and explanations in the paper, they then actually enjoy finishing up a math worksheet. I found that article fascinating. When I was a kid I was interested in math but the learning experience left me stressed out and feeling stupid. As an adult even basic math sets off an anxiety response after decades of telling myself "you're no good at math." I don't even try. I remember being sick for almost a week in high school and when I returned I did poorly on an exam because I missed learning about "functions." I still have no idea what they are. I wish I'd been taught math in a way that didn't leave me feeling stupid.
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Aug 30, 2022 11:41
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BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:i took 'programming' to mean 'coding', if it's just tech troubleshooting then yes, we all likely do it within our jobs. but i think the utility of knowing actual coding concepts is limited. The point is that understanding basic coding logic helps with that even if you're not actually writing code. It helps you understand how "dumb" a computer is, as it were, and what kinds of mistakes it might make.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:07
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Dick Trauma posted:I found that article fascinating. When I was a kid I was interested in math but the learning experience left me stressed out and feeling stupid. As an adult even basic math sets off an anxiety response after decades of telling myself "you're no good at math." I don't even try. I remember being sick for almost a week in high school and when I returned I did poorly on an exam because I missed learning about "functions." I still have no idea what they are. One of the things that surprises students is that this essay was written in the early 2000s. They especially get into those last two pages of the essay because it totally encapsulates what they just went through coming out of high school. “If this guy nailed it before I was born, why is it still happening?” was the question I had to field this year.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:24
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Charliegrs posted:After reading all these posts about programming, I'm kind of wondering if people are confusing "programming" with "general computer knowledge"? I can be a Python master for example, and that's not going to mean I know how to use Excel or Word very well (someone correct me if I'm wrong) or learn them easily because I'm a master programmer. Nor would it help if I had an Ipad that bricked on me, as another poster used as an example. General computer knowledge on the other hand is most definitely a good thing to know for an incredibly wide range of jobs including blue collar work. Believe it or not, not everyone knows the simple act of browsing folder and file structures in Windows. Especially younger people who's "computer" experience has been mostly smartphones and tablets that you can use without ever having to mess with the file system and in Apples case is almost completely hidden away. BIG-DICK-BUTT-gently caress posted:i don't disagree but that's closer to logic-based math problems than anything specific to computer programming. We were discussing elementary coding class in a general ed requirement, literally BASIC. Nobody takes those or teaches those because they think programming in BASIC is actually a useful skill that you'll use. The programming is a vehicle to better understand how the computer takes instructions and basic digital logic structures. I don't disagree that we can probably find a better way to teach that, because you can say that about most any general ed subject.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:24
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I feel there needs to be pushback on the idea that college is for education not job training. That may be the ideal, and may have been true at some point. It's not reality now. Generations now have been told going to college is "the" way to get a job, the courses are structured to lead to a specific field of employment, and gate checking for a degree before your resume is even looked at by a human is reality.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:44
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I briefly went to college for computers (before I briefly went for something else before quitting) and I'm not sure I've ever had to think about what I learned. The "little bit of knowledge" I spent that time and money on would have been necessary for a career in computers, but it's only value to me was affirming I'd rather dig holes than fiddle with tech for a living. I haven't touched a laptop or desktop in months. I do literally dig holes for a living of course (among other far-from-computer tasks). I don't want to become a gimmick, but personally I feel theres somehow less value in learning how to operate atop a pile of products and technology in these days. I can't imagine how something like programming could be nearly as useful to the average person as, say, philosophy. But which one is focused on jobs, productivity, money? If we're talking knowledge for knowledges sake, anything computers (beyond the most basic understanding of navigating Operating Systems or the internet) wouldn't be topping the list in my opinion and experience.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:46
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So now I guess instead of (or along with) election fraud, the 2020 election was rigged because of the FBI ignoring Hunter's laptop https://news.yahoo.com/trump-demands-reinstatement-rightful-president-203820572.html Trump demands reinstatement as 'rightful' president or 'a new Election, immediately!' as some Republicans seek distance from him Orange Turd Loser posted:In his statement, Trump wrote in all capital letters that the "FBI BURIED THE HUNTER BIDEN LAPTOP STORY BEFORE THE ELECTION knowing that, if they didn't, 'Trump would have easily won the 2020 Presidential Election.' This is massive FRAUD & ELECTION INTERFERENCE at a level never seen before in our Country." This loving guy, man. Also, yet another "in all of human history" occurence. Donald Trump is like Forrest Gump or Zelig he's made history so many times
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Aug 30, 2022 12:51
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bird food bathtub posted:I feel there needs to be pushback on the idea that college is for education not job training. That may be the ideal, and may have been true at some point. It's not reality now. Generations now have been told going to college is "the" way to get a job, the courses are structured to lead to a specific field of employment, and gate checking for a degree before your resume is even looked at by a human is reality. There is no reason it cannot do both. It can be more like technical or trade schools in the sense of job training- 2 years for an associate's or 3-4 for a bachelor's but mostly degree requirements, if that's what a student wants. Many other countries do it this way, particularly for STEM degrees but also others. It can also be for a broader, liberal education, particularly if it's low-cost and people can continue to take courses throughout their lives if they want. The problems are the education system(s) in general, the perception of education among the general public, the legal/government aspect of education, but also capitalism as it relates to tertiary education. None of it easily solved even with a ton of extra money. There's also the industry of continuing education + certifications and it's a whole other can of worms. I do not think there will be a real solution until the constitution is amended or somehow interpreted that there is a human right to an equal and equitable education.
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Aug 30, 2022 12:55
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bird food bathtub posted:I feel there needs to be pushback on the idea that college is for education not job training. That may be the ideal, and may have been true at some point. It's not reality now. Generations now have been told going to college is "the" way to get a job, the courses are structured to lead to a specific field of employment, and gate checking for a degree before your resume is even looked at by a human is reality. I mean the idea of general education for all is a valid and great idea. The problem is that when that ideal was developed, college was mostly state subsidized and people were paying very little cash for the overall experience. Now it's a major investment, more than a house, so of course it should be expected to pay cash dividends. But the idea of a more abstracted, general all purpose education is absolutely valid, it just would have to be state subsidized again. Society overall benefits from having everyone learn some humanities. But society needs to pay that bill not student loan debt.
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Aug 30, 2022 13:06
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bird food bathtub posted:I feel there needs to be pushback on the idea that college is for education not job training. That may be the ideal, and may have been true at some point. It's not reality now. Generations now have been told going to college is "the" way to get a job, the courses are structured to lead to a specific field of employment, and gate checking for a degree before your resume is even looked at by a human is reality. College IS job training. It is just that most of the majors are job training for 'How to be a Graduate Student in Subject X'. That was part of the career path of almost every professor. It is what they know, so that is what they teach. It is kind of wasteful that people in the US are encouraged to sit through job training for a job (professional academic) that they likely aren't interested in and for which there are not a lot of job prospects.
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Aug 30, 2022 13:09
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BiggerBoat posted:So now I guess instead of (or along with) election fraud, the 2020 election was rigged because of the FBI ignoring Hunter's laptop Is he just reposting old Truths at this point?
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Aug 30, 2022 13:10
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Update regarding the thread title: https://twitter.com/MIAagainstFash/status/1564388444947849220 So according to new communiques, Gavin McInnes was only pretending to be blacksited spontaneously, as one does. Turns out it was all a trick. Unless saying it's a trick is itself a trick.
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Aug 30, 2022 13:22
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silence_kit posted:College IS job training. It is just that most of the majors are job training for 'How to be a Graduate Student in Subject X'. That was part of the career path of almost every professor. It is what they know, so that is what they teach. But I WAS interested in that job and the gen ed load kept me from pursuing it
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Aug 30, 2022 14:57
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My grandfathers advice was to get a business degree, no matter what I wanted to do in life. I ignored him because I was a super smart 18 year old. Now I wish I would of done a 5 year MBA program somewhere. I have a masters, but I never actually worked in my field. Was a big waste of time/money.
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Aug 30, 2022 15:06
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davecrazy posted:would of Oh, the humanities.
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Aug 30, 2022 15:34
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https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1564617652471054338 If you scream into an empty echo chamber, does anyone actually hear you?
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Aug 30, 2022 16:13
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projecthalaxy posted:Update regarding the thread title: Well, yeah, it was obviously a trick. The cops aren't gonna straight-up disappear a white guy for several days. But if he stops his podcast midway, drops off Twitter for a few days and tells all his friends to pretend he's missing, he gets to be showered in attention from extremely online people from all parts of the political spectrum while he's partying away the weekend.
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Aug 30, 2022 16:19
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BRJurgis posted:I briefly went to college for computers (before I briefly went for something else before quitting) and I'm not sure I've ever had to think about what I learned. The "little bit of knowledge" I spent that time and money on would have been necessary for a career in computers, but it's only value to me was affirming I'd rather dig holes than fiddle with tech for a living. I haven't touched a laptop or desktop in months. I do literally dig holes for a living of course (among other far-from-computer tasks). I actually had to take higher level philosophy courses as part of my BS in Computer Science. Structured arguments and common logical fallacies are very important for computers (but not posting, obviously) as it turns out! I also had a course on circuitry and wiring. At least one class was in how operating systems actually operate too, and another was in how to put one together and what things in it do (this I have never used, because it taught me I'll just gently caress it up somehow no matter how easy it is lmao).
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Aug 30, 2022 16:41
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davecrazy posted:https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1564617652471054338 Lol amazing. He's really lost in the sauce with those memes, full epistemic closure, just reee-ing into the void (or to millions of other people who are also red and nude at their computers)
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Aug 30, 2022 16:59
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Jarmak posted:We were discussing elementary coding class in a general ed requirement, literally BASIC. Nobody takes those or teaches those because they think programming in BASIC is actually a useful skill that you'll use. The programming is a vehicle to better understand how the computer takes instructions and basic digital logic structures. I don't disagree that we can probably find a better way to teach that, because you can say that about most any general ed subject. I took an elective for Pascal in high school, a language which was unused by anyone even in my time, and though I forgot a lot of the specific commands, the concepts have stayed with me this whole time. Much of what I had learned then was seamlessly applied to some scripting languages over the years, mostly scripts for video game/MMO related stuff. I kinda hated high school for a number of reasons, but their tech related classes were ahead of the curve and I'm glad I took them.
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Aug 30, 2022 17:01
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