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I can tell this thread doesn’t have too many EEs in it because we’ve gone entirely too long without just blaming it on software… I know early generation GFCI/AFCI were likely 100% analog but I want to say I remember reading an article recently where most of the units nowadays have a little mixed-signal ASIC that adds some filtering / processing to try and avoid nuisance trips. It’s a circuit you’re deploying in the field though that needs to be as cheap as humanly possible to produce… it’s always going to have introduced some new failure modes. I’m sure the logic was the amount of times it helps vs nuisance tripping made it “worth it” but then to Motronic’s point, “solving” the nuisance trip / actual fault by doing something janky is probably the norm most of the time. Clearly the feedback loop of “here is what happens in the field / what we find over time” back to code revisions is breaking down over time and not reflecting pragmatism… Speaking of GFCI though… since I’m protected at the breaker, I’m installing some USB-C outlets in the kitchen. They are chonky boys… look what I found from the guys that did this kitchen:    What tool would I use to cut / widen the backsplash so this actually fits? I have not cut or drilled glass before. File it down? loving sloppy work here… the glass pretty clearly overlaps the gang box. Replacing the backsplash is on my list anyways, but not that soon. movax fucked around with this message at 19:40 on Aug 21, 2022 |
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Aug 21, 2022 19:33
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Diamond death wheel. Wear safety goggles. If you have a dremel that might be the best option. I'm sure they make diamond oscillating tools as well. You're going to be making a lot of high velocity glass dust so you should clear out the area of anything edible, especially fruit and bread. Wipe all surfaces down with a wet rag when done. Wear gloves.
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Aug 21, 2022 19:50
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H110Hawk posted:Diamond death wheel. Wear safety goggles. If you have a dremel that might be the best option. I'm sure they make diamond oscillating tools as well. You're going to be making a lot of high velocity glass dust so you should clear out the area of anything edible, especially fruit and bread. Wipe all surfaces down with a wet rag when done. Wear gloves. Sweet — thanks! Used my Dremel and it went quite well: 
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Aug 21, 2022 22:16
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movax posted:Sweet — thanks! Used my Dremel and it went quite well:  looks good!
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Aug 21, 2022 23:33
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Any suggestions for doing something similar with porcelain tile?
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Aug 26, 2022 18:20
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Blindeye posted:Any suggestions for doing something similar with porcelain tile? You can use the same method for porcelain, but if you have the space/right shape you can use tile nippers (https://www.homedepot.com/b/Flooring-Flooring-Supplies-Flooring-Tools-Tile-Tools-Tile-Nippers/Porcelain/N-5yc1vZcdu8Z1z0u711). They will make less of a mess and work great on porcelain (they would probably have just shattered/pulverized those glass tiles).
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Aug 26, 2022 18:44
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Hi Wiring Thread - I'm hoping someone can help me identify this buzzing thingy. I'm a noob. We recently bought a house, built in 1948. I'm very sensitive to noise and I noticed a mild buzzing sound when I was in the living room - seemingly coming from below. It's not as loud as when the fridge is on, but it's definitely there. I finally tracked it down to this situation in the crawl space. (Don't worry, I turned off the breaker before I started poking around)    I have verified the buzzing is coming from the older-looking bottom thingy. It seems to vibrate and since it's attached to the main joist it makes a noise that is sort of "deep" if that makes sense. I assume since it's basically vibrating the entire joist. From what I can tell, the newer looking thing is spliced (pig-tailed?) into the old thingy (or vice-versa?). The top thing has a coverplate that I removed to take pics. The wires go to the following places as far as I can tell: Bottom right thin red wires go to somewhere close to front porch. Bottom left red wires seem to go to an old breaker box. Top right black goes to new breaker box, top left black goes to the old breaker box. I know barely anything about wiring but it seems like the bottom thing is original and the top thing was added sometime when the wiring was updated (we think in the 70's or 80's). There is an old breaker box that is all pig-tails in a utility closet, and then a new breaker box on the outside of the house. I recently had GFCI/AFCI breakers installed on the new breaker box since basically the whole house was ungrounded. I guess first of course is: is this dangerous? But secondly, how can I get it to stop buzzing? My first thought is to cushion the poo poo out of it with weather stripping? Should I call an electrician and have them figure out what it is and if it can be removed? What does the buzzing thingy do?
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Aug 27, 2022 18:51
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That's a doorbell transformer (most likely) and that wiring is a mess. I wouldn't suggest that as babby's first home electrical project. Properly functioning doorbell transformers are silent, so you probably want to get someone to just replace it for you. Something buzzing like that would drive me nuts too.
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Aug 27, 2022 18:53
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Motronic posted:That's a doorbell transformer (most likely) and that wiring is a mess. I wouldn't suggest that as babby's first home electrical project. If you get someone out to fix this, see if you have any other electrical stuff that needs fixing as well. This isn't a ton of work for someone that knows what they're doing, so you're likely going to be paying just to get them to show up. Adding extra stuff (replacing outlights/light switches/etc) isn't really going to be that much of an extra cost.
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Aug 27, 2022 19:01
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Thanks for the quick reply! We don't have a doorbell (or so I thought). This is actually solving another mystery.... Right next to the old breaker box there is thing:  Doorbell alarm? And then I thought "but we don't have a doorbell button outside by the door....." so I took a look:  lol I'm assuming at some point the doorbell broke and the owner just caulked over the doorbell button instead of dealing with it? Just curious, what makes the wiring a mess? I'll probably call an electrician and have them deal with it.
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Aug 27, 2022 19:12
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Lackmaster posted:I'm assuming at some point the doorbell broke and the owner just caulked over the doorbell button instead of dealing with it? I think yo'ure right about "doorbell broke, remove button", so in that case you can just have this thing disconnected. Wiring is a mess because it's old cloth jacketed stuff. It's largely fine if you do'nt touch it. As soon as you start messing with it it's likely to start shedding insulation and may leave you in a situation where an entire run needs to be replaced or other mitigation has to be done.
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Aug 27, 2022 19:19
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Motronic posted:I think yo'ure right about "doorbell broke, remove button", so in that case you can just have this thing disconnected. Understood - that makes a lot of sense. Thanks!
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Aug 27, 2022 19:28
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That is called the "doorbell chime." Concur with Motronic on this one, with an addendum. The doorbell button probably broke so they tried to replace it, lost the wire in the doorframe, then plastered over it. I suspect the reason it's buzzing is that the wires are shorted together in the doorframe. No worries: that's the reason for the transformer -- make it so a dead short doesn't have enough power available to do anything bad. It's entirely possible that you can 1) turn off the breaker to the doorbell circuit and 2) disconnect all the red wires from it and it'll stop buzzing. You might also be able to have your electrician friend drop a new bit of wire down the doorframe to that plugged hole and have a working doorbell again.
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Aug 27, 2022 22:05
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just a heads up that does not apply in this case and would have been very unlikely given the location anyway, it could have also been a transformer for heating controls (usually a thermostat). have gone to a couple houses where "their friend who knows electrical" "did something" and now the heat doesn't work
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Aug 27, 2022 23:11
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Welp, maybe I can get help here! What the gently caress is going on with this switch box?  I grounded the ungrounded switch (why wasn't this connected???) but don't want to touch anything else.
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Aug 27, 2022 23:48
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Upgrade posted:Welp, maybe I can get help here! That'd be a three-way switch so there should be another switch that controls the same light and they're setup in that when they're off they still feed the hot over to the other switch. It can be a little confusing.
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Aug 28, 2022 00:13
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Ohhh I’m very stupid. Yea.
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Aug 28, 2022 00:17
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Crossposting from the fix it fast thread: I know there is such a thing as an in line gfci for power tools, like this: https://a.co/d/eUYtA7E But is there an in line surge protector? Looking for something to use for my band playing in bars. I don’t want just a standard power strip type because there’s a good chance it’s going to get covered in beer/alcohol when playing in a bar, and I want the surge protector because sometimes the power in those places is dodgy as poo poo and I’d rather not have a power surge wipe out the mixer or my amp. If there’s something I could splice into an extension cord, even better.
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Aug 28, 2022 00:18
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AFewBricksShy posted:Crossposting from the fix it fast thread: Would this work? (I'd try to find a better source then amazon if you're going to buy it)
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Aug 28, 2022 02:09
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AFewBricksShy posted:Crossposting from the fix it fast thread: That same beer is pretty likely to wipe out your mixer or amp. Something like this? https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-8-ft-Cord-6-Outlet-2-USB-A-2100J-Surge-Protector-RG608U/315708358 What about a pelican knock off with all the foam removed, and some holes drilled in it? Is any of your gear rack mounted? Or somehow living in a box you could mount a power strip in 1U of? Or otherwise drill a off the shelf one upside down on the underside of the top of it? You really just need it "off the ground" to keep it from getting drowned. Remember properly plugged in stuff can take a little splash. Maybe suck less so people aren't chucking whole beers at you? 
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Aug 28, 2022 04:22
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Good -- those Leviton USB-C outlets are great for killing off power bricks to power various Internet of Crap devices! Bad -- after installing another one, I hosed up something when I flipped the breaker back on (kept tripping) and went and cleaned up how I tucked the wires back into the box. After that, heard clicking from one of the GFCIs in the kitchen... no bueno. Looks like it's bad / pushing 'reset' just click-click-click. Good -- that double-box where a pair of GFCIs were installed (which I always thought was weird) turns out to be where my MWBC enters the kitchen! Right next to where my coffee corner is. I replaced the GFCIs with some outlets I had lying around (since I don't need the protection anymore, as the breaker covers it). But, it got me thinking... I've always loved how fast kettles are when I'm in London/South Africa/anywhere with 220 V. The gangbox install kinda sucks anyways so replacing it with a triple gang wouldn't be a big deal. Can you put a 240 V receptacle on a MWBC? The breaker will stay the same, the other receptacles will stay the same, I just want to add a 240 V receptacle for a fast kettle. I had idly considered the comedy option of installing a UK receptacle, but a NEMA 14-20 probably makes the most sense? I'll modify the cord as needed if I don't get a North American market 240 V kettle. I can see an imbalance tripping the breaker if it happens (blasting the kettle while also having my Breville running or something) but I don't typically use those at the same time.
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Aug 28, 2022 04:51
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movax posted:
You can put any listed receptacle on on any circuit that supports it. I have NEMA L6-15 (250VAC with ground, no neutral) receptacle in my kitchen for... reasons. I'd have a 6-15 except they're completely impossible to order right now and I've got a pile of L6-15s for work-related reasons. 14-20 or L14-20 makes more sense for normal people: if you've got four wires, use 'em all, I say.
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Aug 28, 2022 05:13
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:I have NEMA L6-15 receptacle in my kitchen for... reasons. Well?  Also yes for others if you have h/h/n/g use a 14-* outlet, you can always pigtail your way to dropping the neutral. And don't use L(ocking) varieties like some kind of weirdo. Or don't be a coward and put a IEC 60309 for your kettle.
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Aug 28, 2022 05:34
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I wonder if this is one of those things that code doesn't really have an answer for, buuuuuut in theory it seems like there shouldn't be anything wrong with this approach as long as your MWBC is set up properly with a pair of tied breakers. The PO of my place set up at least one MWBC while accidentally - or purposely? - missing that rather important step. They were on opposite phases, but on regular breakers with no tie or other markings indicating anything out of the ordinary.
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Aug 28, 2022 05:59
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IOwnCalculus posted:I wonder if this is one of those things that code doesn't really have an answer for, buuuuuut in theory it seems like there shouldn't be anything wrong with this approach as long as your MWBC is set up properly with a pair of tied breakers. The PO of my place set up at least one MWBC while accidentally - or purposely? - missing that rather important step. They were on opposite phases, but on regular breakers with no tie or other markings indicating anything out of the ordinary. It wasn't always required that multiwire circuits with a shared neutral have breaker ties. I got bitten more times than I'd like from "the circuit is off" neutrals. Current way around this is 12/2-2+g cable: black/white, red/white-with-stripe + bare ground. it's not 12/4 (black, red, blue, white +g); it's designed specifically to send two circuits to a place without having to have a tied breaker.
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Aug 28, 2022 06:15
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H110Hawk posted:That same beer is pretty likely to wipe out your mixer or amp. Something like this? https://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-8-ft-Cord-6-Outlet-2-USB-A-2100J-Surge-Protector-RG608U/315708358 That actually might be perfect. The issue isn’t people throwing beer at us because we are awful (I’ve gotten good at dodging bottles) it’s that usually our mains are set up in front or to the side of us, and the crowd uses them as tables. The place we played on Friday has a small rear end stage so we had both of our main speakers and light cords completely soaked in beer. We’ve probably got 25-30 power cables we need to plug in between monitors, amps, racks, keys, petal boards, and lights, so we are usually running at least one or 2 extension cords to where we are set up, then plugging into the rats nest from there. I’ve got a gfci box to protect against something shorting out due to spillage outside the wall, but we also have no idea what the condition of the power were plugging into is, hence the desire for a surge protector as well. devicenull posted:Would this work? (I'd try to find a better source then amazon if you're going to buy it) That also might work, but I’m concerned it might fall out of the wall if it’s in a lovely outlet. It still might be worth picking up though. Thanks.
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Aug 28, 2022 13:52
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AFewBricksShy posted:The issue isn’t people throwing beer at us because we are awful (I’ve gotten good at dodging bottles) it’s that usually our mains are set up in front or to the side of us, and the crowd uses them as tables. The place we played on Friday has a small rear end stage so we had both of our main speakers and light cords completely soaked in beer. 
H110Hawk fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 30, 2022 23:59
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This caught my eye yesterday at Legoland. Told guest services and it was gone when I came back later in the day.   
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Aug 31, 2022 00:09
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That's very "overnight cleaner broke off the vacuum cleaner plug"
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Aug 31, 2022 00:11
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Motronic posted:That's very "overnight cleaner broke off the vacuum cleaner plug" Yup. Some appliance got yanked at an angle and they finally get to replace it.
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Aug 31, 2022 00:17
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Is coming out of a regular wall box with MC cable under and through a vanity to a box mounted on the side of the vanity code compliant? Fuzzy/area dependent but at least not stupid? I'd like to get on the bidet bus with the biggest obstacle being power at the toilet and this is the simplest solution for 2 of my bathrooms and seems like it'd be fine to me but while I'm not a stranger to home wiring I'm no electrician. I do not have to worry about any inspections but I'm pro dont-do-stupid-poo poo.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:11
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  Is this cloth wiring? House was built in 1955 and almost none of the outlets have ground.
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Aug 31, 2022 06:16
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Elem7 posted:Is coming out of a regular wall box with MC cable under and through a vanity to a box mounted on the side of the vanity code compliant? Fuzzy/area dependent but at least not stupid? If you get a box cover that has an appropriate hole for an MC nut and the MC and new box are attached/supported appropriately there is no issue with that.
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Aug 31, 2022 14:06
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Admiral Joeslop posted:
Yes, looks the same as what I have in my 1953 house. Yours is in better shape. https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Old-Fabric-Insulated-Electrical-Wire-ID.php e: looks like you might have a ground. I'd test it before assuming. 
opengl fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 14:56
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Bleh. Gonna be costly to replace. Most of the upstairs is two prong so I'm slowly replacing the load in outlets with GFCIs. I tested every three prong in the house and the only ones actually grounded are the washer/dryer area and the one next to the water heater, which is good since a freezer and fridge are going down there. Speaking of, would having a fridge and freezer on the same outlet be too much load? I'm not sure how to check that.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:24
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Looks like fibers from the jacket to me.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:39
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Even if it was a conductor, it looks far too thin to support any possible fault current for even a short period of time.
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Aug 31, 2022 16:47
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Coming here from Home Zone thread: We're replacing a lovely drop-in stove from the 80's with a nice new induction slide-in. We have a bit of carpentry to do to make that happen, but aside from that, the current range is hard-wired via a junction box sitting on the ground under the stove. It's on a 50 amp dedicated circuit. Current wiring (pardon the mess, it was like this when we bought the house I swear:  Back of new range:  There's presumably room back there to flush-mount an outlet, and I have appliance cords for both 3 and 4 prong. I'm just not positive how to add an outlet to an existing wall where there isn't a box already. I don't care how it looks, it'll be behind the stove. I'm also not adverse to just hardwiring into that box - Edit: would something like this work, assuming I have 4 wires? https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leviton-50-Amp-Single-Surface-Mounted-Single-Outlet-Black-R20-55050-P00/311373554 Edit 2: 3 wire version Edit 3: I was able to get the stove out enough to access the junction box. What appears to be coming up from the breaker is 2 black and a ground. The existing stove was a 4-wire stove and had neutral (or at least white, I'm not sure what it is) tied in with the ground inside the junction box. This wasn't my wiring job:  I note that's aluminum so I may need an al/cu connector I think. Not sure how that would work for an outlet. ssb fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 18:37
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Eh, I decided this was beyond my comfort/skill level even if someone were to tell me exactly what to do, so I have an electrician coming. Feel free to answer for other people's sake if you want, but I'm just having an outlet installed into the wall back there.
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Aug 31, 2022 20:42
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Admiral Joeslop posted:Bleh. Gonna be costly to replace. Most of the upstairs is two prong so I'm slowly replacing the load in outlets with GFCIs. I tested every three prong in the house and the only ones actually grounded are the washer/dryer area and the one next to the water heater, which is good since a freezer and fridge are going down there. your appliances should have their wattages on a name plate. if they're on a 15amp breaker, your maximum would be 1800w but there's debate whether or not fridges + freezers are a continuous load, which would mean only being able to use 80% of the breaker, so 1440w. if they're on a 20amp breaker, 80% of 2400w gets you 1920w. might not be a bad idea to just use 80% anyway given the questionable condition of the wire and not knowing how the gently caress its run in the walls ssb posted:Eh, I decided this was beyond my comfort/skill level even if someone were to tell me exactly what to do, so I have an electrician coming. Feel free to answer for other people's sake if you want, but I'm just having an outlet installed into the wall back there. good call! there's exceptions in the code that can be met (250.140) specifically for stoves and dryers in this 3 wire scenario but it's probably best to leave that to someone who is certified or better yet, someone who will take the blame when an AHJ says no.
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Aug 31, 2022 21:38
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