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Malpais Legate posted:That one is pretty standard as far as drag names go, though. not the name, more the mix of ru paul and howard stern
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Aug 31, 2022 01:57
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Steve Yun posted:What queer stuff hasn’t aged well in Sandman? I remember people mentioning there are some but can’t think of any The comic version of A Game of You has some troublesome stuff with how people treat Wanda, the trans character. She is portrayed pretty well, but those around her misgender her and even claim the Moon doesn't care about her chosen gender, it considers her a man. The Audible adaptation softens it a bit by changing some things (A character simply infers that Wanda can't menstruate where in the comics she straight up says "Wanda is a man" It doesn't remove the transphobic rear end in a top hat neighbor who gets his face cut off and talks poo poo on her from beyond the grave, but he's always been positioned as a jackass who doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to trans people.
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Aug 31, 2022 05:18
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Thessaly is a pretty big self-aggrandizing rear end in a top hat in general, being a lovely TERF decades before the term was coined is just par for the course for her.
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Aug 31, 2022 06:07
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Bussamove posted:Thessaly is a pretty big self-aggrandizing rear end in a top hat in general, being a lovely TERF decades before the term was coined is just par for the course for her. Yep. BIG COMIC SPOILER. Love her activly helping Lyta work with the Fates to gently caress with Morpheus, but when he dies, she goes "I want to kill you for killing him" Pick a lane, lady
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Aug 31, 2022 06:09
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I guess I should read it over again because everything from books 2-4 is memory holed and I mainly fixated on the gods and kings stuff
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Aug 31, 2022 06:37
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:The comic version of A Game of You has some troublesome stuff with how people treat Wanda, the trans character. She is portrayed pretty well, but those around her misgender her and even claim the Moon doesn't care about her chosen gender, it considers her a man. The arc ends with a very clear affirmation that Wanda is a woman, so your examples (which match up with my memory of the story) are just kind of examples of arseholes being arseholes. To me, at least. I get why people might not enjoy seeing that portrayed, or become triggered by the portrayal of those aspects, but ultimately I don't think there's an inherent harm in portraying real world cruelty. IMO the bigger problem is that Wanda has a tragic death so that the cis protagonist can learn an important lesson about being herself, and I don't see them changing that tbh.
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Aug 31, 2022 08:09
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IMO the transphobia depicted in A Game of You lands much better now than when it was originally published as everyone now knows exactly how lovely TERFs are and how hurtful deadnaming is.
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Aug 31, 2022 08:12
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Open Source Idiom posted:IMO the bigger problem is that Wanda has a tragic death so that the cis protagonist can learn an important lesson about being herself, and I don't see them changing that tbh. Yeah I would agree with that but part of what makes that problem feel way worse is you get to that after all the transphobia too. So if they are not going to do some major structural rework like softening is the way to go imo. But yeah the big problem with game of you is just... its sorta trite. in the sandman compendium they talk about how like, gaiman categorizes arcs as "male" and "female" (which is kinda eye rolley but i digress it was like 20 years ago) and game of you is in the latter. so here is this arc that is about women in characters and thematically... and its just banal overall in those aspects imo... and then a transwoman, who gets killed off for the service of the cis main character in the arc about women. Not saying you would need to rewrite the story so wanda lives or anything, but just how the comic arc comes across is infuriating. Also I mentioned this earlier but the whole bit where she is like conventionally attractive in the afterlife feels weird too. On one hand I could appreciate it because there is an element of escapism to it where its like "cool you can be cis in the afterlife if you want." But the way it comes across in the comic sorta feels like a weird way to show validation in her identity, that "hey, she gets to be pretty now"
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Aug 31, 2022 08:49
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Necrothatcher posted:IMO the transphobia depicted in A Game of You lands much better now than when it was originally published as everyone now knows exactly how lovely TERFs are and how hurtful deadnaming is. Yes, quite.
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Aug 31, 2022 09:23
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Might be worth noting that Wanda herself talks freely about her birth name and is the first character we hear it from, which I'm not sure what the conventions were in the trans community at the time, but I'm on the fence whether that would be received today as "the show deadnames its trans character!" or "the show depicts deadnaming as bad, but Wanda the character is fairly chill about her birth name".
My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 11:15 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 09:51
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A Game of You is completely skippable. The story is forgettable and nothing of importance happens.
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Aug 31, 2022 17:07
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A Game Of You is the first Sandman story I read, so there’s certainly a lot of nostalgia attached to it, but as a young gay high schooler who spent his childhood in my own fantasy worlds, it resonated so strongly with me and I still love it.
Seluin fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 18:17
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Alhazred posted:A Game of You is completely skippable. The story is forgettable and nothing of importance happens. If you want to call introducing the character who drives the entire second half of the story "nothing of importance", sure. It's also the only story that sheds any light on how the Dreaming really works. And skipping it would be pandering to the bigots. It's moot anyway. We already know that they won't be skipping it.
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Aug 31, 2022 18:22
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Jedit posted:If you want to call introducing the character who drives the entire second half of the story "nothing of importance", sure. It's also the only story that sheds any light on how the Dreaming really works. And skipping it would be pandering to the bigots. Her romance with Dream happens completely off screen and she's isn't even mentioned by name in Brief Lives. It would be pretty easy to introduce her as girl that Dream dated and then broke up with.
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Aug 31, 2022 18:56
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Jedit posted:And skipping it would be pandering to the bigots. a good chunk of the lgbt peeps i know when they heard about the adaptation were like "boy i hope they don't do that arc"
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Aug 31, 2022 19:27
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if you think they blew the money on setting up the Martin Tenbones CG character to only use him in about 10 seconds of footage you are sorely mistaken
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Aug 31, 2022 19:27
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Flesh Forge posted:if you think they blew the money on setting up the Martin Tenbones CG character to only use him in about 10 seconds of footage you are sorely mistaken I want a spinoff with Barbie and Martin Tenbones.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:30
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A Game of You is the thematic heart of the entire story, serving the same role as Men of Good Fortune or The Education of Charles Rowland do to The Dolls House and Season of Mists to the overarching story of the whole 80+ issue run.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:44
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Alhazred posted:Her romance with Dream happens completely off screen and she's isn't even mentioned by name in Brief Lives. It would be pretty easy to introduce her as girl that Dream dated and then broke up with. She does play a small but crucial role in The Kindly Ones, and I think having her character and motivations established is valuable to the narrative. It wouldn't be impossible to write around one way or another, but taking out her introduction story is not completely trivial.
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Aug 31, 2022 19:51
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Neil did say that he is taking a step back from writing that episode and plans on letting the trans and LGBTQ+ writers in the writer's room shape A Game of You for the series if and when they get there. He even suggested Wanda's story might change, which would be interesting. But between them setting up Martin Tenbones and Allan Heinberg and Neil talking about how they plan to interconnect Season of Mists and Game of You, it's not getting cut out if Season 2 is indeed a thing.
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Aug 31, 2022 20:19
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Neil did say that he is taking a step back from writing that episode and plans on letting the trans and LGBTQ+ writers in the writer's room shape A Game of You for the series if and when they get there. He even suggested Wanda's story might change, which would be interesting. yea like i said earlier with how they changed like, sketchy lgbt stuff already i am like legitimately looking forward to game of you even though its my most hated arc but i don't think anybody thinks its getting cut out at this point in the thread... we had one poster said they should skip it and then everyone keeps making posts about how they are not going to skip it when everyone knows they aren't... its v confusing...
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Aug 31, 2022 20:24
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Neil did say that he is taking a step back from writing that episode and plans on letting the trans and LGBTQ+ writers in the writer's room shape A Game of You for the series if and when they get there. He even suggested Wanda's story might change, which would be interesting. Probably ideal situation. I’m thumbing through it again and… it’s in a shaky space where it’s only a good portrayal of transsexuals if you see Wanda’s struggle with body image and 100% feel sympathy and not any disgust. I have several trans friends who are still pre-op because of health care costs to the point that one has basically given up on getting an operation. I can only imagine how difficult and demoralizing it is to be in that situation where your body doesn’t match your self image. It’s easy to imagine how most audiences will see the bulge in Wanda’s underwear and her broad shoulders and see it as a mockery instead of empathizing for her as I assume Gaiman intended.
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Aug 31, 2022 20:47
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Personally the biggest issue I have with A Game of You is the art; the artists on that storyline have a very hit and miss record on being able to depict the nuances of a trans woman whose features don't pass as well as they would like without turning into outright mockery, and regrettably the main artist for those issues is the worst at it. It's comes across as disrespectful and just viscerally unappealing, so I usually skip it on rereads. After watching the show I did go through it again for the first time in a long time and I appreciated the story more than I did before, so I'm glad they're planning on covering it, but man that art has some issues.
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Aug 31, 2022 21:07
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the holy poopacy posted:Personally the biggest issue I have with A Game of You is the art; the artists on that storyline have a very hit and miss record on being able to depict the nuances of a trans woman whose features don't pass as well as they would like without turning into outright mockery, and regrettably the main artist for those issues is the worst at it. It's comes across as disrespectful and just viscerally unappealing, so I usually skip it on rereads. Game of You is one of my favorite stories, and the artist is well suited for the Land fantasy stuff with the weird animals and creatures. The stuff in the city though, WOOF. Wanda is drawn very weirdly in some cases, and also the homeless woman who is afraid of dogs looks straight out of a really bad minstrel show design. I am not sure how intentional any of it was, but yeah. It's a yikes.
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Aug 31, 2022 21:20
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From the scene where Hazel is surprised Wanda has, and I quote, a thingie, it seems like she's supposed to actually pass quite well. Then again, Hazel is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed.
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Aug 31, 2022 22:05
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TheBigBudgetSequel posted:Game of You is one of my favorite stories, and the artist is well suited for the Land fantasy stuff with the weird animals and creatures. The stuff in the city though, WOOF. Wanda is drawn very weirdly in some cases, and also the homeless woman who is afraid of dogs looks straight out of a really bad minstrel show design. I am not sure how intentional any of it was, but yeah. It's a yikes. Supposedly they had some kind of big screw-up with the pencil job there. Colleen Doran's art looks fine later on. But the pages where they wake up from the nightmares, wow that's bad. Reading Sandman the first time as a teenager, I thought Game of You was really boring, sort of a sidetrack between two really good, big picture story arcs. But later on I've started to appreciate it more. It is a sad one and has some archaic attitudes but like Neil has said, sometimes Gods (and Moons) can stuff their opinions in their sacred recta. For the TV Show, it has some nice juxtaposition with the colorful fantasy elements and the gritty suburb horror stories. My Lovely Horse posted:From the scene where Hazel is surprised Wanda has, and I quote, a thingie, it seems like she's supposed to actually pass quite well. Then again, Hazel is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Hazel's views on contraception in this arc should already clue you on that. TeaJay fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Aug 31, 2022 |
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Aug 31, 2022 22:33
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I will say that Wanda seems to be modelled on Eric Stoltz in Mask to a far greater degree than the nuances of portraying imperfect passing demand
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Aug 31, 2022 22:43
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It’s been a long long time since I read A Game Of You and I don’t even want to imagine how bad it looks nowadays, but out of all the Sandman comics it’s got to be the one that made the most impact on me. If you asked me to picture Sandman Wanda’s grave is the first image that comes to my head. She was my literal first introduction as a teenager to a trans character who didn’t exist as a “Guess what’s up her skirts Lads!!” punchline, one of British TV’s favourite skits. She broke me of my unthinking transphobic assumption that being trans was some sort of fetish thing; nothing in my life had ever questioned that message before. A visibly masculine person who wasn’t greeted with gales of laughter for being dressed the ‘wrong’ way, who was a fully-rounded person who suffered from that attitude that up until that point I’d never once questioned because that was just The Way Things Are… I was distraught for her when she was rejected by the Moon and even more when she died. Up until then, you know, I never really questioned the attitude of “you might be queer in your private life but do pretend to be normal when visiting the family, you know it upsets them to see what you’ve become.” Her in her coffin: deadnamed, hair sheared, dressed up like a man by her parents was an act of injustice, a humiliation I finally understood she never deserved - and then her real name scrawled in pink lipstick over the headstone was a catharsis. Seeing her looking cis when Death collected her nailed home for me that,deep in their very core being, trans people are just trying to live the truth their bodies and society deny them. Like I said, she’s a clumsy portrayal aimed at telling the ignorant cishets that Trans People Are People Too with all the subtlety and nuance of an after-school special. I’d love to see her updated for the 2020’s. Still took me twenty more years before a personal revelation made me realise why Wanda affected me so much
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Aug 31, 2022 23:53
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TeaJay posted:Supposedly they had some kind of big screw-up with the pencil job there. Colleen Doran's art looks fine later on. But the pages where they wake up from the nightmares, wow that's bad. the inker had something come up, I think it was a child being born. thanks to good planning, the chief editor had to ink the book, like, overnight, to get it to ready to print on time. doran threatened to break his fingers if he ever touched her work again. the reprint they did in 2004 cleaned it up some
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Sep 1, 2022 00:33
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Regarding the Moon goddess: My takeaway is that Barbie respects Wanda’s gender when a goddess does not and that therefore Barbie is good and the goddess is an rear end in a top hat. I feel like the comic is saying your gender identity is valid even in the face of society and gods saying it is not. I think the comic is trying to break us of the notion that being supernatural/powerful automatically makes one right
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Sep 1, 2022 03:14
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Steve Yun posted:Regarding the Moon goddess: Neil Gaiman has said that this is basically the intended take. Someone up thread mentioned that at the time that it happens Thessaly seems like a badass who knows what's going on, and only later turns out to be a fuckup who has no clue about anything, so people tend to view the TERFy bits through the lens of that first impression rather than the intended message that the TERF character/moon is an idiot rear end in a top hat who is of no use to anybody.
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Sep 1, 2022 03:37
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the holy poopacy posted:Neil Gaiman has said that this is basically the intended take. Yeah that is definitely the timeline and the effect. I didn't pick up on it until a much later reread.
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Sep 1, 2022 03:49
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yeah literally everything else in the comic refutes thessaly.
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Sep 1, 2022 04:24
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Flesh Forge posted:yeah literally everything else in the comic refutes thessaly. Just another in a long line of supernatural beings being huge dicks in the Sandman. A character doing flashy magic tricks doesn't make them a beacon of morality (see: all of Hellblazer)
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Sep 1, 2022 04:56
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I am breschau. I green lit adam sandler movies and this is my punishment!
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Sep 1, 2022 06:19
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The thing that has always bugged the poo poo out of me about the OG comics is how Destruction would give his talking dog chocolate 
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Sep 1, 2022 06:55
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Flesh Forge posted:The thing that has always bugged the poo poo out of me about the OG comics is how Destruction would give his talking dog chocolate This destroys the dog. totally in character
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Sep 1, 2022 07:27
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The Annotated Sandman at https://www.enjolrasworld.com posted:Yes, the art looks really bad. It's George Pratt's fault. According to hearsay, Pratt inked Doran's pencils in two days. According to Neil Gaiman, Pratt left for vacation leaving the last four pages undone. Dick Giordano inked those, deliberating using a style similar to Pratt's. Doran has threatened to "break Pratt's fingers" if he ever comes near her art again, and now has an "inker approval" clause in her contracts with DC. Here are some images of the original pages and the improved pages from the 30th anniversay edition for comparison. Not linked directly because of (badly inked) NSFW lady bits. https://i.imgur.com/383Av3R.jpg https://i.imgur.com/mgPyuNt.jpg https://i.imgur.com/EaUKTQl.jpg
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Sep 1, 2022 07:42
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I'm only 3 episodes in so far, but I'm loving it. I didn't expect they could find someone who could speak convincingly in white on black speech bubbles, but Sturridge manages it somehow. He looks like an emo dork and it's perfect. The gripes I've had so far are minor. Like Constantine looked to clean. But then maybe they didn't have required budget to make Jenna Coleman look disheveled. Patton Oswalt as Matthew I did really dislike though. He's not that bad, but in the one episode I've seen him in so far it's "Here's Oswalt, doing his Patton Oswalt voice." It's probably the result of some producer wanting a big comedy name for the wacky side character role to get some more publicity.
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Sep 1, 2022 08:52
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It's a shame that there doesn't seem to be a way to get the original colouration of the comics anymore, short of ebaying all the issues. The new one isn't all bad but I'm absolutely allergic to some of the awful gradients they use.
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