|
sebmojo posted:It's been a while, but I think that is a bit goon telephoney? Congratulations you actually thought about it instead of listening to the average goon nonsense
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 22:12 |
|
|
The main character kills the leader of the revolution in order to stop them killing a kid because step 2 of throwing off the shackles of oppression is "slit the white children's throats". Crossposting my thoughts on this from a short while ago: Breetai posted:Pictured: Bioshock Infinite's sole moral choice: do you hurl the ball at the young couple who are being publicly vilified for 'race mixing', or do you throw it at the carnival barker who is encouraging you to hurt them? Breetai has a new favorite as of 02:28 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:26
|
|
|
I am really torn between Booker and Aiden Pearce from Watch Dogs 1 as my least favorite video game protagonist. They are both awful.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:26
|
|
|
While I think the game didn't treat it with enough nuance, I think there's a childrish, centrist expectation that slave revolts must be noble and dignified affairs. A protest, a speech, maybe some mustache-twirling bad people are allowed to get shot, and then afterwards the noble victims must extend a hand of friendship to their oppressors afterwards. Anything less would be plainly uncivil. A group brutalizes, dehumanize and tortures people long enough to keep them as slaves? When that dam breaks, they're going to explode into a tsunami of rage and fear. Reprisals are not going to be targeted or clean. Revolutions are not nice.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:27
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:The protagonist says "the only difference between Comstock (the white supremacist) and Fitzroy (the black revolutionary leader) is how you spell the name" but then the protagonist is an rear end in a top hat Yeh anybody who does a Wounded Knee might have some biases
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:27
|
|
|
Cool Kids Club Soda posted:Yeh anybody who does a Wounded Knee might have some biases the best thing to come from infinite was https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEjdihKnYk
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:32
|
|
|
Humbug Scoolbus posted:I am really torn between Booker and Aiden Pearce from Watch Dogs 1 as my least favorite video game protagonist. They are both awful. Aiden is just kind of lovely and generic whereas Booker is literally a wounded knee vet and creator of a racist sky society. Also Aiden's got a cool coat.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:33
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:The protagonist says "the only difference between Comstock (the white supremacist) and Fitzroy (the black revolutionary leader) is how you spell the name" but then the protagonist is an rear end in a top hat The protagonist is comstock. If you create the circumstances for violent bloody revolution, then you bear responsibility for the violence and blood of that revolution.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:38
|
|
|
Kitfox88 posted:Aiden is just kind of lovely and generic whereas Booker is literally a wounded knee vet and creator of a racist sky society. Also Aiden's got a cool
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:41
|
|
|
Cool Kids Club Soda posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 02:43
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:It's been a while, but I think that is a bit goon telephoney? Because Bioshock Infinite's plot was kind of a mess all things considered? I know it probably wasn't intended to come off as a "Both sides are equally bad" way, but either from the plot being scrapped and patched back together so much, that you end up with a mishmash plot that relies on "alternate dimensions" to cover any areas they couldn't cleanly patch together, or Levine just ended up writing a plot where he tried to take a centrist position ("What if not racism... AND not violent revolution?") that kind of forgot that the people that were being overthrown had been depicted as being fully deserving of the revolution putting them against the wall. Or to put it another way: Apparently Levine thinks he hosed up the portrayal of the revolutionist leader so much that Burial At Sea retcons her to just acting like a psychopath so Elizabeth will kill her and explicitly states she didn't want to kill the child.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:07
|
|
|
Kitfox88 posted:Aiden is just kind of lovely and generic whereas Booker is literally a wounded knee vet and creator of a racist sky society. Also Aiden's got a cool coat. Aiden's big problem is he's clearly the victim of at least one, maybe two, big rewrites that're so clumsily executed you can still see the white-out on the pages of the design doc. He's clearly meant to be a distant father dealing with his daughter's death badly, rather than Uncle Prepper Batman looking in on his sister and feeling guilt about his niece's death. The other is what I swear is hard swap from "The unidentified vigilante" to "~The Fox~", that doesn't even get named until Aiden gets outed as being "~The Fox~"
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:17
|
|
|
Well yeah, obviously they weren't actually trying to say that being racist is as bad as not being racist. The problem is that they screwed up the delivery of the actual themes so bad that it really seems like they might be saying that. I actually remember playing the game and I can assure you that the heel turn of Fitzroy is sudden, jarring, and stupid. There is no (discernible) underlying theme throughout the game of oppression leading people to sacrifice their morals. The Vox Populi are the good guys who fight the racists, and then Fitzroy comes out of the shadows holding a pair of scissors to a child's throat, and then the Vox Populi are bad guys to shoot at. If I remember correctly they literally have you travel to a different timeline at some point to justify the drastic and otherwise inexplicable shift in how the Vox Populi are portrayed between the start and end of the game. I have to assume this was the result of script rewrites. I actually like Bioshock Infinite a lot better than most people on these forums, or so it seems, but there really is not much of an argument to be made that people are being too hard on the story. It really is that bad. How about a little thing I like in a game? How about Bioshock Infinite? The mechanics and visuals of Elizabeth's tears are extremely cool to me. I really wish the game did more with giving the stuff Elizabeth pulls out of tears attributes that show they are clearly from a different timeline. For example, there are enemies in the game called Mechanized Patriots which are statues of founding fathers holding miniguns that can walk around and shoot you. Every so often you get the chance to pull a friendly one from a tear. When you do, if you look very closely, you can see that the flags they have hanging off them are regular American flags rather than the flag of Columbia.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:38
|
|
|
Man I noticed that about the flags on a livestream around the time the game came out, and it was such a fantastic tiny detail that I paused and spent twenty minutes with my chat just talking about how cool it is that they implied with one enemy that there's a bizarro-Columbia where the ENTIRE UNITED STATES seceded and the floating city is the last bastion of hope and progressiveness instead. THEN we went on to considering that even this other Columbia would still be a poisoned well by being of-its-time and just as backward thinking and it was a wonderful garden path to go down overall. I agree that it should have been stuffed completely to the gills with those little garden paths to spot and think about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:45
|
|
|
I loved the final scene, it was extremely beautiful.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:47
|
|
|
sebmojo posted:I loved the final scene, it was extremely beautiful. Planting one of the unused beta Elizabeths from the very trailers that started this discussion into that moment was a really great touch. They nailed the atmosphere even if I personally don't like how the plot went, imo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 03:52
|
|
|
It was rad as hell when you sabotage the airship and then ride out as it crashes and guys on the ground chant your name.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:12
|
|
|
Pretty much 90% of the approach to revolution and rebellion in video games, hell most media, is basically the same as bullying in schools: "Well Billy may have shouted racial slurs and stolen little Barry's lunch, but Barry did punch him in response so both parties share some blame in this and need to work through their issues"
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:15
|
|
|
I loved Bioshock Infinite, I think it's biggest flaw is that the stuff with the Vox Populi doesn't really make much sense without the overall greater context of the ending, but happens like halfway through the game. Still, the gunplay was fun, the graphics were great for the time, and not nearly enough games go the route of making the protagonist completely and utterly irredeemable, even in the context of magical alternate dimensions and superscience. Plus, Elizabeth is a really fun character - she's written pretty terribly for most of the game but then at the end when she's given any real agency at all, she immediately erases you from existence as hard as she possibly can.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:17
|
|
|
nothing about the vox populi makes sense regardless of context the fact that they're given less nuance than the turbo-imperalist faction says a lot about where levine's "truth is in the middle" nonsense actually falls Ariong posted:Well yeah, obviously they weren't actually trying to say that being racist is as bad as not being racist. The problem is that they screwed up the delivery of the actual themes so bad that it really seems like they might be saying that. I actually remember playing the game and I can assure you that the heel turn of Fitzroy is sudden, jarring, and stupid. There is no (discernible) underlying theme throughout the game of oppression leading people to sacrifice their morals. The Vox Populi are the good guys who fight the racists, and then Fitzroy comes out of the shadows holding a pair of scissors to a child's throat, and then the Vox Populi are bad guys to shoot at. If I remember correctly they literally have you travel to a different timeline at some point to justify the drastic and otherwise inexplicable shift in how the Vox Populi are portrayed between the start and end of the game. I have to assume this was the result of script rewrites. it's dumber than that. the vox are friendlies after the dimension hop where they win, and then fitzroy gets on the intercom and ominously says that booker "complicates the narrative," at which point every single vox instantly and permanently becomes hostile. in levine's story, the racist oppressors are given some nuance and depth, right down to a few that briefly try to shelter booker before the cops kick in their door. the communist-coded oppressed class are hooting, slavering orcs Oxxidation has a new favorite as of 04:32 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:21
|
|
|
Oxxidation posted:nothing about the vox populi makes sense regardless of context It's that booker/comstock has already screwed everything up WAY too badly and trying to fix it closer to the present doesn't undo or prevent further bloodshed and tragedy It's....like a huge part of what leads to the ending. But then there's a bunch of game left between it and the actual ending, like those trumpet guys and a ghost (? pretty sure, i played it over a decade ago) It worked for me, because I binged through it one weekend when I was traveling every week for work, but as it's presented it's totally understandable to miss some of the connections when played "normally".
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:29
|
|
|
Rockman Reserve posted:then at the end when she's given any real agency at all, she immediately erases you from existence as hard as she possibly can. Herself as well, since she's Bookers daughter. There was a good game somewhere in Bioshock Infinite that Ken Levine did his level best to destroy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:36
|
|
|
Rockman Reserve posted:I loved Bioshock Infinite, I think it's biggest flaw is that the stuff with the Vox Populi doesn't really make much sense without the overall greater context of the ending, but happens like halfway through the game. Still, the gunplay was fun, the graphics were great for the time, and not nearly enough games go the route of making the protagonist completely and utterly irredeemable, even in the context of magical alternate dimensions and superscience. Plus, Elizabeth is a really fun character - she's written pretty terribly for most of the game but then at the end when she's given any real agency at all, she immediately erases you from existence as hard as she possibly can. yeah lmao fucken owned booker you dumb putz
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:39
|
|
|
Rockman Reserve posted:
It was Comstock's, and by extension Booker's, dead wife
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:43
|
|
|
I gotta do a Bioshock replay, the trilogy was free on epic a while back so I've got em when I want em I was ok with Infinite mostly when I played it, but it won me over with the epilogue scene where some version of Booker is out there with some version of Elizabeth and maybe those ones will be ok. Kind of Dark Tower-ish
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 04:51
|
|
|
ty for binfinite chat goonfriends, it's annoyed me for a bit but even though i don't think it's 'both sides are wrong' i can see now how sloppy storytelling makes it look that way. my favourite little thing in games is seeing the dwarf fortress nerds blissfully happy big dumb faces, there are men who are unironically living the dream. also the soundtrack for the new steam version slaps https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgXQKqGhfIY
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 05:03
|
|
|
I enjoyed bioshock 1 and what i played of 2
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 05:51
|
|
|
vox solaris > vox populi
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 05:55
|
|
|
moonmazed posted:vox solaris > vox populi Well,. obviously. I mean, have you seen the DIMENSIONS of the sun?!
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 06:10
|
|
|
Ariong posted:If I remember correctly they literally have you travel to a different timeline at some point to justify the drastic and otherwise inexplicable shift in how the Vox Populi are portrayed between the start and end of the game. I have to assume this was the result of script rewrites. It doesn't magically fix everything, but it is extremely telling that the version of the Vox Populi that are bloodthirsty monsters are from a dimension where Booker ended up as Daisy's right hand man before being bumped off/martyred. Once again confirming that regardless of which choices he makes, Booker is just the biggest piece of poo poo and only knows violence. Something that the game manages to pull off even despite the hodge-podge nature of the script is that Booker's journey through Columbia is purgatorial. Every problem that arises is directly born from one of his prior sins and subsequently interrogated. It's not even all that subtle but it's at least a coherent throughline that helps justify some of the game's excesses (ghost mom). John Murdoch has a new favorite as of 07:45 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 07:41
|
|
|
Booker DeWitt and Simon Jarrett of SOMA should form a club of games where a much more competent female protagonist has no choice but to be attached to your hip and it actively drags down her competency. I'm sorry Simon was written to be a huge idiot Catherine, they did it on purpose and it's really clever and I will always be sad Some Dickhead is the guy who has the job of preserving humankind.  I think Simon might be my favorite Intentionally Dense protagonist. You get to see the exact moment at which he is accidentally misled and where his naivete toward the far-out concepts presented to him takes over. Speaking about his opinion of the 'coin toss' moment, for those that have played. The scan that was saved of Simon had a relatively fresh brain bleed injury, but even if you don't allow some forgiveness in his retention of information based on that, consider what it's like to have a concept like body-jumping actually explained to you. He's told early on not to think too hard about the nature of his existence or face overloading by Catherine, who also faces that threat, and so he trusts her from then on to elaborate on all the stuff that involves his body. If the tutor isn't very good (Catherine), and you aren't a very good learner (Simon), nobody's gonna retain anything, which results in the 'coin toss' mentality. It's brilliant because it's very human. She just didn't get it across very well and a more intelligent person would have understood what she meant, and it very nearly screws them in the end. CJacobs has a new favorite as of 08:56 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 08:43
|
|
|
I only saw an LP of SOMA but I loved the moment at the end where Catherine gets so frustrated with Simon that she has a cyber-aneurysm and short circuits
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 08:59
|
|
|
I always loved that Simon still has human hands after you emerge from the brain scan, but before you're forced to confront the reality of PATHOS facility. Fun fact, you can turn on your flashlight in SOMA before the game lets you know that you have one. if you do so, Simon has a line where he is confused and can't even understand where it's projecting from (because it's coming out of his chrome dome robot face). That line is so utterly trippy because I think it's the first time I've seen a protagonist say outwardly, "what in the gently caress? I do not get this at all. Man, I'm just not gonna think about it." Sebastian Castellanos of The Evil Within another contender for that trophy, it actively helps him survive!
CJacobs has a new favorite as of 09:13 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 09:05
|
|
|
CJacobs posted:I always loved that Simon still has human hands after you emerge from the brain scan, but before you're forced to confront the reality of PATHOS facility. Fun fact, you can turn on your flashlight in SOMA before the game lets you know that you have one. if you do so, Simon has a line where he is confused and can't even understand where it's projecting from (because it's coming out of his chrome dome robot face). Maybe it's like JC Denton where he opens his mouth to let the light out
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 09:34
|
|
|
CJacobs posted:Booker DeWitt and Simon Jarrett of SOMA should form a club of games where a much more competent female protagonist has no choice but to be attached to your hip and it actively drags down her competency. I'm sorry Simon was written to be a huge idiot Catherine, they did it on purpose and it's really clever and I will always be sad Some Dickhead is the guy who has the job of preserving humankind. I haven’t played the game and I’ve only read the synopsis, but here’s a question regarding the coin toss Is the point that there really isn’t one? If I make a duplicate of my body and brain, there’s a zero chance that my present consciousness will somehow transfer to the new body. There will be another me running around with my memories but they’ll have their own consciousness. The me that was around when the duplicate was made will still be sitting in the body that created the duplicate. My understanding is that the protagonist gets upset about “losing the coin flip” in the ending but that was the only possible outcome
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 09:45
|
|
|
Kit Walker posted:I haven’t played the game and I’ve only read the synopsis, but here’s a question regarding the coin toss To explain the moment in full: You're correct in your assessment, and Simon is objectively wrong (on purpose from a writer's perspective). Simon has to jump bodies to proceed deeper into the ocean, and when he does so his consciousness is copied as a new brain scan into the dormant chip, which then activates, temporarily creating two Simon's. He's never been in this situation before because if you recall back to the start of the game, his very first scan ALSO was instantaneous and done while he was awake. From his perspective, he has always won this "coin toss" that he reconciled to explain to himself how he is always 'continuing' the mission deeper and deeper into the ocean in new bodies. That's part of the dread that builds in the game's final... I dunno, several hours after he makes that connection mentally, even. You're meant to grasp that he's wrong in the moment, as you can choose to personally deactivate the old body which is still mumbling about the scan. Simon doesn't understand the sacrifice that he's going to need to make- the one WE are playing as is not going to be present on the ARK, but because he's just not a scientist, he will never understand the concept. It's really tragic and part of why I like his portrayal so much! SOMA is definitely worth a watch from a quality source if you don't enjoy playing horror games, and absolutely worth a playthrough if you are a fan. CJacobs has a new favorite as of 10:22 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 10:12
|
|
|
2house2fly posted:The protagonist says "the only difference between Comstock (the white supremacist) and Fitzroy (the black revolutionary leader) is how you spell the name" but then the protagonist is an rear end in a top hat Such an rear end in a top hat that his daughter goes out of her way to kill him in every timeline in fact  Edit: oh whoops, thread moved on Weird Pumpkin has a new favorite as of 12:20 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 12:13
|
|
|
The thing about the "coin toss" is that it's an entirely out-of-context device. We, the audience, can only experience one perspective at a time, so when the first-person main character is duplicated the game has to choose which one we're bound to for the rest of the story. We're the ones making the coin toss and winning or losing it. The first two times he gets duplicated, we "win" by following the one with the longer and more engrossing life; at the end of the game we "lose" by following the one still stuck on the bottom of the ocean.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 14:36
|
|
|
CJacobs posted:To explain the moment in full: Man, I love SOMA. Existential horror that really sticks with you. Inferior has a new favorite as of 14:40 on Sep 1, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 14:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 22:12 |
|
|
Only thing I would change about Soma's ending is to have us actually start with the 'good' arc ending, and then smash cut to the bad ending undersea freak-out. It would have had a different and in my opinion better impact.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2022 15:06
|
|