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MariusLecter posted:As much as the galaxy and even the warp revolving around the emperor seems cool, I don't like that idea. I like the idea of The Emperor as having essentially learned the wrong lessons from history and eventually going "gently caress it, I'll just make them all listen to me" and being torn down by his own hubris. The Emperor falling into fascism and beginning the Great Crusade at all was what lead to 40k being The Worst Timelime.
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Sep 1, 2022 12:49
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1564961983476137984?s=20&t=7VmpI83x2jm6NSyt61BqXw Malcador 
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Sep 1, 2022 12:51
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Improbable Lobster posted:I like the idea of The Emperor as having essentially learned the wrong lessons from history and eventually going "gently caress it, I'll just make them all listen to me" and being torn down by his own hubris. The Emperor falling into fascism and beginning the Great Crusade at all was what lead to 40k being The Worst Timelime. quote:‘Didn’t you just tell me of the bloody slaughters perpetrated by crusaders?’ said Uriah. ‘Doesn’t that make you no better than the holy men you were telling me about?’
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Sep 1, 2022 13:38
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Improbable Lobster posted:I like the idea of The Emperor as having essentially learned the wrong lessons from history and eventually going "gently caress it, I'll just make them all listen to me" and being torn down by his own hubris. The Emperor falling into fascism and beginning the Great Crusade at all was what lead to 40k being The Worst Timelime. I prefer to think that the Great Crusade and the Heresy, with the subsequent stagnation and decay, it's basically an echo of the rise of mankind in the Dark Age of Technology, and its collapse during the catastrophic Age of Strife. The existance of the Warp is literally a ticking time bomb and the entire setting is broken by design.
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Sep 1, 2022 13:38
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I actually like how both the Necrons and Old Ones are ultimately responsible for loving everything up forever. The Emperor, as poweful as he is, ultimately exists in the aftermath of the War in Heaven just like everyone else. Unless he's secretly an Old One I guess in which case hes been getting owned by Chaos for a lot longer than we thought.
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Sep 1, 2022 15:11
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Can't wait for the 20 book epic retelling of the Age of Apostasy once the Scouring Series is over with. Meanwhile the Horus Heresy series of the 40k timeline will be on book 8 by the same time. 
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Sep 1, 2022 15:43
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NihilCredo posted:e2: Anyway, if things are supposed to go full circle, then The End and the Death - Vol. 2 should be written by Ian Watson. He's only 79 years old, you know loving hell this reminds me I was in touch with him and he was more than happy to sign all my first editions of his early 40k works and send them back my way but then covid happened and I didn't want to get him killed waiting in line at the post office. I need to get on that ASAP before it is too late.
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Sep 1, 2022 16:26
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DaysBefore posted:I thought one of the daemons was implied to be Cain
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Sep 1, 2022 17:48
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There is however, a daemon prince that is Genghis Khan. I am having a real funny mental image of an inquisitior just absolutely dunking on a daemon prince who ascended because they killed a planet or three by pointing out that they probably killed proportionally less people then Genghis did with horsey boys given the human population at the time. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 1, 2022 |
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Sep 1, 2022 17:50
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That's implied to be Doombreed, but people have other candidates in mind for him because Genghis was a bit more chill than some of his successors.
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Sep 1, 2022 18:03
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Just finished Echoes of Eternity, and holy poo poo Vulkan dunking on Magnus one of the most satisfying parts of the whole series.
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Sep 1, 2022 19:02
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How many of the current 40K Chaos marines are heresy era veterans? Do the old legions still comprise the bulk of the traitor marines or has Blackheart managed to outnumber them with his renegade pirate fleet?
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Sep 1, 2022 19:22
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Arc Hammer posted:How many of the current 40K Chaos marines are heresy era veterans? Do the old legions still comprise the bulk of the traitor marines or has Blackheart managed to outnumber them with his renegade pirate fleet? As many or as few as the story in question needs. I think by process of elimination most renegade Marines are not Heresy veterans but there's no numbers on that stuff. Same reason the Tanith 1st keep getting whittled down yet somehow original Tanith are all over it still after 20 years.
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Sep 1, 2022 19:47
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There's also the weird thing where a new Chaos Marine given old armor/geneseed/Butcher's Nails harvested from a fallen Heresy-veteran might sometimes start having vivid memories of Siege of Terra and develop habits and patterns of that are not theirs originally. Plus, you know, Fabius Bile can clone dead marines and transplant memories.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:25
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a lovely king posted:Same reason the Tanith 1st keep getting whittled down yet somehow original Tanith are all over it still after 20 years. I remember the vets having a moan about how the Tanith were now a minority in the Tanith 1st now in Warmaster/Anarch.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:25
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Azubah posted:lol they just announced the final book for Siege will be two volumes. gently caress yeah new Throne art !!
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Sep 1, 2022 20:29
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Shroud posted:Just finished Echoes of Eternity, and holy poo poo Vulkan dunking on Magnus one of the most satisfying parts of the whole series. If you don't mind posting spoilers, I love a good dunking.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:34
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a lovely king posted:As many or as few as the story in question needs. Pretty much this. It's insane that the World Eaters even survived the Heresy and the Scouring, to be honest. AnEdgelord posted:I actually like how both the Necrons and Old Ones are ultimately responsible for loving everything up forever. The Emperor, as poweful as he is, ultimately exists in the aftermath of the War in Heaven just like everyone else. Unless he's secretly an Old One I guess in which case hes been getting owned by Chaos for a lot longer than we thought. Due to how central the Emperor is to the Imperium both in the Great Crusade/Heresy era and in 40k, we tend to forget that the setting is actually bigger than just the golden boy and his armored mutants. It's actually pretty funny and ironic when you realize the Emprah and the early Imperium are just squatters sitting on top of the ruins of a more advanced civilization trying to salvage as much as they can from a bygone era and getting hosed in the process. It really puts things into perspective.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:35
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Angry Lobster posted:Pretty much this. It's insane that the World Eaters even survived the Heresy and the Scouring, to be honest. Prospero Burns drives this home with the scenes of the Wolves fighting a crazy hypertech sci-fi offshoot of humanity that has gone full brain-in-jar.
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Sep 1, 2022 20:41
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OPAONI posted:If you don't mind posting spoilers, I love a good dunking. These are from a conversation in the Webway, in the moments between physical blows Magnus: “What do I have to justify? Each time I was attacked, I defended myself. Each time they tried to silence me, I made sure to speak out. The Imperium lavished punishments upon my Legion, draping its hypocrisy over us as a funeral shroud. We fought back” Vulkan: “Look at the horrors your side has unleashed upon Terra. The massacres, the mutations. Magnus, you are taking part in the extinction of your species… You cannot truly think you have done nothing wrong. Even you, brother. Even you, in your arrogance, cannot believe this is justified.” Magnus, using Lorgar's arguments: “Necessity justifies all. And this is necessary. Without this primeval force, without this Chaos, there will be stagnation. Ignorance instead of illumination. Existence instead of life. I did not write the laws of our universe, brother. I take no joy in the truth of reality. But I won’t hide from it.” Vulkan: “Necessary according to whom? The alien god that exalted you and now demands you commit genocide?” ... Vulkan: “Russ was lied to by Horus, deceived into attacking.” Magnus: “I know. It changes nothing” Vulkan: “But it should. You, who value truth so highly, willingly align yourself with the one that engineered Prospero’s death. And when the Space Wolves fleet arrived in your sky, what did you do, Magnus? Did you try to enlighten Russ? Did you use your power to prevent the assault? Or did your belief in your own persecution leave you assuming the worst of the Emperor’s intentions? All witness accounts say you languished in your tower, welcoming the destruction as your penance, until you decided to fight in the final hours, when it was far too late to stop the massacre. ... Why would the Emperor order you and your entire Legion dead? Did you not stop to wonder at the scale of this misunderstanding?” ... Magnus: “But how was I to know? He refused to tell me of His grand plan. If He had told me…” Vulkan: “Again, you see the worst in all others, absolving yourself of blame. Why did you need to know of the Great Work? You were warned not to toy with the warp. We all were. But you couldn’t resist. You believed that you knew more, that you knew best. And why is it that you alone lament being kept unapprised of father’s plans? Why is Sanguinius not enraged that he never knew of the Webway Project? Why am I not enraged that I was kept ignorant of it? Why did you need to know?” Magnus: “Had I known the truth, I would never have… done what I did. Father should have told me.” Vulkan, laughing in disbelief: “How could father have predicted you would defy His one command? Not only did you use the warp against His orders, you fuelled your psychic warning with human sacrifice. How could any of us have known you were capable of such barbarity?” Long passage: “Here,’ said the Magnus of Now, watching the Magnus of Then. ‘Here is where I made my choice. You saw the Emperor make His final offer to me. You heard Him promise me a new Legion, if I would only forsake Horus and come back to you all. A matter of mere weeks ago, brother. Will you tell me you’ve forgotten it?’ Vulkan sighed. He seemed suddenly weary. ‘That is not what transpired here, Magnus. The last unstained shard of your soul burst into the Throne Room and begged to be saved. With a heavy heart, father refused you. That is what I saw. That is what happened.’ Magnus’ laughter was blunt, practically a derisive bark. ‘And you say I’m the one who has been deceived?’ Vulkan was too tired to rise to the bait. He met derision with solemnity. ‘This thing that runs through you, this chaotic force you proclaim as freedom, is not a disease to be caught on contact. It is the layer of emotion behind reality, a poison that has achieved near sentience. It makes its prey into willing victims in their own damnation. You are riven by it, Magnus. Hollowed out by it. And it was already in your Legion, in your sons’ blood and genetic code, in the form of the Flesh Change. And when you dealt with the Pantheon, believing you had cured your children, all you really achieved was a deepening of the taint, hiding it from sight, delaying the inevitable. This thing, this force, cannot be cured, Magnus. You cannot pray it away once the rot sets in. Once you are on the Path… your fate is sealed.’ ‘Wait, Vulkan. Wait. How can this be? How do you know all of this?’ In the silence that reigned in the wake of those words, the Throne Room began to fade. Golden mist hazed its way around them, revealing patches of wraithbone architecture. Vulkan was relentless, his voice growing firmer. ‘How could the Emperor ever trust you now? Why would He offer you a new Legion, let alone a place at His side? You dreamed up your own redemption, just to give yourself something to rage against. Because you need to feel as though you are the one choosing, not having the choices made for you. The creature that exalted you will never let you see the chains that bind[…]”
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Sep 1, 2022 20:57
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Angry Lobster posted:Pretty much this. It's insane that the World Eaters even survived the Heresy and the Scouring, to be honest.
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Sep 1, 2022 21:09
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Prospero Burns drives this home with the scenes of the Wolves fighting a crazy hypertech sci-fi offshoot of humanity that has gone full brain-in-jar. Those weird moments are some of the best parts of the heresy.
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Sep 1, 2022 21:13
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Shroud posted:These are from a conversation in the Webway, in the moments between physical blows Even having read that section already, seeing it all posted in one chunk is just pure   Magnus is totally that meme of the guy jamming a stick in the spoke of his own bicycle, and everyone knows it but him.
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Sep 1, 2022 21:19
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Is the current book typical Heresy era Marvel fiction or is it an actual story .
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Sep 1, 2022 21:21
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euphronius posted:Is the current book typical Heresy era Marvel fiction or is it an actual story . Echos of Eternity is an actual story.
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Sep 1, 2022 21:27
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Magnus: I AM BEING SILENCED!
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Sep 1, 2022 21:28
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Angry Lobster posted:Pretty much this. It's insane that the World Eaters even survived the Heresy and the Scouring, to be honest. Well see I'm not entirely sure on how many Chaos Marines remain mortal and permadead when they're in the Warp. Angron managed to summon up 50,000 World Eaters for the First War of Armageddon which is absolutely insane considering how damaged they were after Kharn shattered them and the Emperor's Children in one night. Are they still alive and able to die or do they resurrect in the Warp?
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Sep 1, 2022 21:33
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Finished 'Echoes'. Easily the best Siege book for me, with 'First Wall' coming second. I really like how visceral it is. ADB is really good at capturing the grinding exhaustion, gallows humor, and brutal scale of the war's apex. After several books in which it felt things barely happened, this really does feel like an escalation, the last stretch into the climax. High Points: -Sanguinius. I have never really read a Blood Angels book I liked before, so this felt really overdue. He feels a bit wrong for the setting, but maybe that's the point. He's the primarch that was too good for this sinful setting. Still captivating, charismatic and believable. Especially as the contrast to Angron; one who took a broken legion and did his best to uplift it, and one who broke his legion in his own shape but still failed to bond with them. -Arkham Land's scene of basically Forrest-Gumping his way through a vicious convoy assault. Especially him freaking out and accidentally vaporizing an Imperial Fist that was trying to help him. I like it when even geniuses and 'good' guys mess up instead of being perfect and virtuous all the time. -Lotara. Just...look what they did to my beautiful waifu. It hurts, but it's awesome. -The afterword: It's really earnest and a good insight on being part of this kind of long undertaking, the themes and elements of the setting and how to work with them. And the utter moral sinkhole of all sides. Which is a bit amusing because.... Low Points: -Black/White morality. Look, I get it. Chaos is not fun or pretty or stable. It makes your teeth all gunky and poo poo. But especially for an author who seems to be pretty aware of the 'It's all different flavors of evil' nature of the setting, the loyalists are just resplendent, unerring, virtuous heroes every time. No one is swayed by survival or power or opposing arguments. No one defects when the option is offered. Hell, a criminal murderer is redeemed back into super-pure purity by a speech (a good one, admittedly). No one is even allowed to look ugly! Despite being in a war with the god of disease, no one has the runs or boils. Even though everyone has been wounded by months of grueling combat with chainswords, plasma guns and such, no one has scars, a hosed up face, nothing. Blond aryan supermodels to the very end. And objectively good, too. -Jobbing. Holy poo poo, the traitors can't get a W for poo poo in this book. If you are a named character on the rebel side, you are being clowned on 24/7 in this book, and your side is only winning to add gravitas to the struggle of the good guys before the tide turns as we know it must. Kharn? Punked. Kargos? DOUBLE punked. Ka'Bandha? We all knows daemons never ever win. Freaking -Angron-? Dabbed on by an already exhausted Sanguinius. That new Word Bearer apostole that appeared out of nowhere for this book? Yeah, really sounds like he'll live through this, trust me! -Vulkan. This is a pet peeve because I really don't care for the Perpetual aspect of the story. The dialogue part of the clash between Vulkan and Magnus was golden and a joy to read. The fight? Terrible. Pre-decided. Might as well have sent any Perpetual in if not dying was all that was needed. Hell, find an immortal guy with a really nasal voice, or keeps farting all the time, and send him in to serially annoy Magnus and ruin the ritual, would have achieved the same thing. Now, don't be fooled my griping above. Nerds will nerd and it's a great book. But as an aside, to add to what others said. How are there ANY World Eaters left, indeed. So we start with 100k in the opener of the Heresy. Purge maybe 20k on Isstvan, while also taking what, 10k losses? Then spent almost a decade fighting in the vanguard and deadliest spots of every battle, while also killing their own guys in the gladiator pits. Then the severe casualties on Terra itself. Slaughtered by loyalists whenever they need someone to make them look good. War with the emperor's Children over Skalathrax. No apothecaries or such to collect geneseed and make more guys. There have to be, what, barely enough World Eaters to fill a school bus at this point. As written, it's a dumb idea. I could see an approach similar to the khorne guys from WH Fantasy, in that they also have some honorable/clan customs that temper the madness. But they already did that with both Space Wolves and Blood Angels, so frothing maniacs it has to be. Even if logically they would slaughter their own ship crews in transit because going a week without killing is too much.
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Sep 1, 2022 23:03
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40k Ships can get too silly sometimes. Some writers like Abnett ignore a lot of the weird grimderp stuff and write spaceships that sound like they could reliably do things in space and it works better for me when you consider they have to use them for a galactic empire. It just doesn't make sense to take a priceless ship and then crew it with pressganged slaves and take it on journeys that apparently have a >1% chance of getting everyone onboard sent to hell. Then you add in the World Eaters...
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Sep 1, 2022 23:23
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30k World Eaters just pick up the pieces and put themselves back together off screen because Warp Fuckery.
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Sep 1, 2022 23:24
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World eaters are generally rare enough that in most books its written as a big loving deal when like 6 of them show up together.
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Sep 1, 2022 23:25
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There's a single World Eater in the second Urdesh book and he's so tough that Priad -- a captain who has sleepwalked through all his previous fights -- barely beats him.
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Sep 1, 2022 23:54
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He's in the first book too IIRC, but he doesn't seem to do much.
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Sep 2, 2022 00:44
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Didn’t the World Eaters have multiple worlds that basically served as Astartes factories during the Heresy, churning out tens of thousands of new frothing madmen a year? I imagine they’d still struggle to maintain their numbers, given their tactics, or lack thereof, but it seems like at least someone on the Black Library staff went, “wait, how can these guys always get slaughtered and then come back to get slaughtered more?”
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Sep 2, 2022 01:06
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Broken Record Talk posted:Didn’t the World Eaters have multiple worlds that basically served as Astartes factories during the Heresy, churning out tens of thousands of new frothing madmen a year? I imagine they’d still struggle to maintain their numbers, given their tactics, or lack thereof, but it seems like at least someone on the Black Library staff went, “wait, how can these guys always get slaughtered and then come back to get slaughtered more?” Parallel of Russian military tactics, historically.
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Sep 2, 2022 01:48
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I'm gonna be that guy really quick and point out that the Russian human wave thing wasn't real and every time it's repeated it boosts Nazi loser propaganda about why they got their poo poo pushed in.
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Sep 2, 2022 03:44
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would hard troop and materiel numbers for every faction increase your enjoyment of the story???
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Sep 2, 2022 03:54
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50,000 world eaters in 40K doesn’t mean 50,000 original XII Astartes, it means 50,000 astartes who have sworn themselves to Khorne. they probably adopt world eater iconography. it’s a dirty secret of the imperium that a LOT of space marines have turned traitor over the years. it’s the only explanation for 1) how many traitor marines there still seem to be and 2) how rare space marines are despite the imperium having the technology to mass produce them.
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Sep 2, 2022 04:05
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Sephyr posted:But as an aside, to add to what others said. How are there ANY World Eaters left, indeed. So we start with 100k in the opener of the Heresy. Purge maybe 20k on Isstvan, while also taking what, 10k losses? Then spent almost a decade fighting in the vanguard and deadliest spots of every battle, while also killing their own guys in the gladiator pits. Then the severe casualties on Terra itself. Slaughtered by loyalists whenever they need someone to make them look good. War with the emperor's Children over Skalathrax. No apothecaries or such to collect geneseed and make more guys. Broken Record Talk posted:Didn’t the World Eaters have multiple worlds that basically served as Astartes factories during the Heresy, churning out tens of thousands of new frothing madmen a year? I imagine they’d still struggle to maintain their numbers, given their tactics, or lack thereof, but it seems like at least someone on the Black Library staff went, “wait, how can these guys always get slaughtered and then come back to get slaughtered more?” Yeah so it isn't really mentioned much, mainly because all POV characters aren't chumps, but Horus instituted a HUGE effort to speed-run as many new astartes from all of the traitor legions as possible before the assault on Terra. I believe the majority of traitor astartes are actually 7 years or younger when they land on Earth, definitely the world eaters at least. They aren't as good, have even more hosed up psyche because the hypno-training is rushed, etc but they are still astartes and its numbers that count. Once in the eye all the traitor legions continued to get new recruits but again we really only get POVs from the veterans so we don't see much of it.
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Sep 2, 2022 05:34
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moonmazed posted:would hard troop and materiel numbers for every faction increase your enjoyment of the story??? Unironically yes. You ever seen this quote? quote:I have at my command an entire battle group of the Imperial Guard. Fifty regiments, including specialized drop troops, stealthers, mechanized formations, armored companies, combat engineers and mobile artillery. Over half a million fighting men and thirty thousand tanks and artillery pieces are mine to command. Emperor show mercy to the fool that stands against me, for I shall not. It's the intro to an Imperial Guard book and it's supposed to awe us with the massive strength the Imperium can gather when it wants. But to anybody with a half-decent high school education, the quote is utterly comical because it implies that an Imperial Warmaster, basically a Field Marshal In Space running an entire Crusade, commands roughly the same number of men as were present at the Battle of Leipzig, many fewer than at Verdun, and a fraction of those at Kursk. Now you could say: well, the problem is that the author gave a number. If he hadn't used numbers at all, there wouldn't have been any dissonance, ta-dah. But it's really freaking weird to read a book of military-themed sci-fi/fantasy without any of the characters bringing up numbers. How many war room scenes are there in most book? How many desperate last defenses? You write a series like Gaunt's Ghosts, you're going to regularly have scenes that cannot play out the same with 10,000 Tanith or 100,000, whether you actually write the number or not. There are some numbers that can be handwaved because they're sufficiently removed from the story. "How many Eldars are still around" is a good one - you can feature billions of Eldar in your story and it's still plausible that the total number in the galaxy is still a tiny fraction of how many there were at their height and they feel like a desperate remnant.
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Sep 2, 2022 10:27
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