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Bobby Deluxe posted:Stunning strike should definitely be once per turn, as it is you can very easily burn 4 ki in one round and brute force them into either a low save or expending a legendary resistance or two. This would only be acceptable if it cost no Ki. Monks do NOT need a nerf.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:22
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Mr. Lobe posted:This would only be acceptable if it cost no Ki. Monks do NOT need a nerf. Yeah, brute-forcing bosses into burning their legendaries so the casters could get their spells to work was one of the few ways that my buddy's monk felt like he had something important to contribute to combat aside from middling DPR.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:26
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I try to play a monk in everything because I like the concept. I love my monk, he's just so bad that the rest of the party complains constantly about how useless I am. Heck remember when they almost gave monk a good subclass(dragon) and then nerfed it before releasing it and now it also sucks? If stunning strike is the reason wotc won't make the monk fun or interesting, lock it behind a subclass or high level or remove it and add some interesting features to the monk.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:27
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Bobby Deluxe posted:Stunning strike should definitely be once per turn, as it is you can very easily burn 4 ki in one round and brute force them into either a low save or expending a legendary resistance or two. I disagree, the monk SHOULD be good at this sort of thing. Burning almost all of your ki points at low levels and still a significant fraction at high levels to force a single target negative status is fine. The problem only comes into play when the DM has decided their will only be 1 enemy on the map, and honestly, that is a bad idea anyway due to action economy reasons. Even if we assume KI is doubled for the monk, it still is a great deal of resources to stun 1 enemy. Compare a monk pouring all their resources to stun an enemy to a paladin doing the same to outright kill an enemy. Dead>Stun.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:28
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In my most recent campaign I looked at the PCs and created a list of scenarios that each one would excel at or be challenged by. For the long death monk in particular I decided on including vertical elements and bodies of water to move across and mobs of weaker minions he could take out with a hit or two, which would also grant him temp hp. At first I had to give the player a few suggestions of how he might take advantage of running along walls (such as running along the wall of a hallway to get on the other side of some enemies) but he eventually took to coming up with ideas himself. In the final fight of the campaign I had a chamber with a raised platform surrounded by a sea of ghouls, as well as several flying enemies. During the battle he ran across the heads of the ghouls (I made sure to describe it as a "sea" of ghouls to get him thinking about the possibility) and at one point ran up a wall and jumped off a wall to attack a flying enemy before teleporting (he was a shadar-kai) back over the platform and slow falling to safety. He also had to deal with increasing numbers of ghouls climbing onto the platform (1d6 ghouls per round of combat), but his number of attacks allowed him to mow them down and get temp hp back. While I'm at it, in that encounter I also included a number of monsters with particularly dangerous abilities (ideally for the rogue to judiciously dispose of) and a homebrew tentacled Earth elemental for the bard to cast her favorite spell, shatter, on (which had the added benefit of destroying the creature's tentacles, which could attempt to petrify whatever the monster grappled). I guess my DMing style when it comes to combat encounters is to see what each PC's strengths and weaknesses are and then craft encounters that take them into account. Sometimes am encounters will have elements that let a PC really shine, and sometimes there will be ones that feature a threat one PC will need help to take down. I was actually inspired by the video game series Etrian Odyssey, where party composition and specs have a massive impact on combat effectiveness. Hexmage-SA fucked around with this message at 15:35 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 15:28
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Oh what's that? Later on monks don't need to eat or drink water? drat that's almost as interesting as 8th level spells
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Sep 2, 2022 15:28
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PeterWeller posted:Yeah, brute-forcing bosses into burning their legendaries so the casters could get their spells to work was one of the few ways that my buddy's monk felt like he had something important to contribute to combat aside from middling DPR. "My character exists to serve as a button for another class to be superior" is not an ideal design.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:29
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Toshimo posted:"My character exists to serve as a button for another class to be superior" is not an ideal design. But a surprisingly popular one if effective. Battlefield control and buffing/debuffing can be extremely fun if it viscerally feels like you're helping. Monks just don't have that.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:33
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Another thing. Monks can run up walls and not take fall damage. Core feature. Once you get to higher levels the other characters have their broom of flying or boots of flying or potions of flying or any number of things. Monk design space is easily eclipsed and the feeling of cool monk stuff exists as long as players decide to not do monk stuff just so a monk can do monk stuff. Give monks scaling reactions maybe? And let them catch projectiles not targeting them. Maybe let them catch targeted spells at 11th level or something?
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Sep 2, 2022 15:34
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RC Cola posted:Oh what's that? Later on monks don't need to eat or drink water? drat that's almost as interesting as 8th level spells Warforged and autognome monks sigh in resignation
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Sep 2, 2022 15:34
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Azathoth posted:But a surprisingly popular one if effective. Battlefield control and buffing/debuffing can be extremely fun if it viscerally feels like you're helping. Monks just don't have that. Give the monk more options. Blinding strike, dazing strike. Let monks target other saving throws with different strikes. Boom easy change and then you aren't burning 12 ki points to try to land a stun on an enemy with +16 to con saves
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Sep 2, 2022 15:35
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I will say Purity of Body rules. We fought an ancient green dragon and our DM was not expecting me to be immune to its breath weapon. Top 1 monk experience
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Sep 2, 2022 15:37
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RC Cola posted:I try to play a monk in everything because I like the concept. I love my monk, he's just so bad that the rest of the party complains constantly about how useless I am. No offense, but your party complaining about your inefficiencies makes them sound unbearable. So long as you didn't actively build or play them wrong on purpose, that is.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:38
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Another problem is that monks are both designed as skirmishers (lots of improved movement options, low HP, mediocre AC) but actually skirmishing doesn't give them advantages and actually makes them worse (Step of the Wind costs both ki which could be used on better abilities, and a bonus action, meaning you lose a big chunk of damage). I feel like giving them more benefits to actually making use of their movement could be more interesting than just boosting the "stand there and punch" ability. What if Step of the Wind didn't cost Ki, and also gave you a bonus attack or damage if you attacked an enemy you didn't start your turn next to, or gave enemies disadvantage to attack if they weren't adjacent to you at the start of your turn?
Piell fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 15:39
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RC Cola posted:Give monks scaling reactions maybe? And let them catch projectiles not targeting them. Maybe let them catch targeted spells at 11th level or something? Impenetrable Ki or something. You've honed your essence to fortress-like levels and get magic resistance change my name fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 15:41
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Zurreco posted:No offense, but your party complaining about your inefficiencies makes them sound unbearable. So long as you didn't actively build or play them wrong on purpose, that is. We have a bunch of campaigns going on in the same world based on which players / DM can play on a given night. So its mostly "why are you playing Rain Cloud. I miss Boggles". Boggles is a cleric you see. So I go from one of the best most efficient classes to one of the worst. Its mostly the one player who misses Boggles, but Boggles is off screen trying to convert more followers to the glory of Thrym. I miss Boggles. He is on his third god since I created him and can use tempest cleric's maximize on cold damage as well. He is fun and cool.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:44
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Also apparently they stealth changed Hadozee on D&D beyond, removing like 2/3 of the description and changing Glidequote:When you fall at least 10 feet above the ground, you can use your reaction to extend your skin membranes to glide horizontally a number of feet equal to your walking speed, and you take 0 damage from the fall. You determine the direction of the glide.
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Sep 2, 2022 15:56
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Piell posted:Also apparently they stealth changed Hadozee on D&D beyond, removing like 2/3 of the description and changing Glide Well....we still have Manta Glide on Simic hybrids at least 
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Sep 2, 2022 15:57
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Piell posted:Also apparently they stealth changed Hadozee on D&D beyond, removing like 2/3 of the description and changing Glide Yes, WotC was trending on Twitter because people found the Hadozee race origin/description racist (ape people who were uplifted for slavery before being set free and who naturally love working + have a heightened pain resistance uhhhh). It appears they've now cut all of that
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Sep 2, 2022 15:59
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Toshimo posted:"My character exists to serve as a button for another class to be superior" is not an ideal design. If we're creating a dedicated support class it would be. But of course, I didn't claim it was "ideal design". I just agreed that it shouldn't be nerfed.
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Sep 2, 2022 16:00
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PeterWeller posted:If we're creating a dedicated support class it would be. Making a class useful beyond a single button isn't a nerf.
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Sep 2, 2022 16:04
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Toshimo posted:Making a class useful beyond a single button isn't a nerf. Making stunning strike 1/round is a nerf.
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Sep 2, 2022 16:09
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Monk shield? No, no, these are "wristbands". They give +2 ac and only monks can use them.
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Sep 2, 2022 16:25
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Hexmage-SA posted:In my most recent campaign I looked at the PCs and created a list of scenarios that each one would excel at or be challenged by. this is rad and you sound like a good DM—it’s just unfortunate (for you! and for all players!) that WotC foists all that work off on DMs instead of just designing classes and, indeed, most things, more equitably
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Sep 2, 2022 16:32
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Jack B Nimble posted:Monk shield? No, no, these are "wristbands". They give +2 ac and only monks can use them. Bracers of Defense straight from Baldurs Gate
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Sep 2, 2022 16:39
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RC Cola posted:Give the monk more options. Blinding strike, dazing strike. Let monks target other saving throws with different strikes. Boom easy change and then you aren't burning 12 ki points to try to land a stun on an enemy with +16 to con saves This would be good. Even just adding a DEX option would be a major step up, since enemies tend to be good with con or dex, but not often both.
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Sep 2, 2022 17:03
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Jack B Nimble posted:Monk shield? No, no, these are "wristbands". They give +2 ac and only monks can use them. Do you mean bracers of defense that do that and can be used by most casters and barbarians?
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Sep 2, 2022 17:06
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Are bracers of defense not a pretty standard magic item given out at reasonably low levels? That and Ring of Protection are pretty standard ones that I'll even let PCs buy for gold if they are in a big city.
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Sep 2, 2022 17:15
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Pretzel Rod Stewart posted:this is rad and you sound like a good DM—it’s just unfortunate (for you! and for all players!) that WotC foists all that work off on DMs instead of just designing classes and, indeed, most things, more equitably Thanks! I partially credit this to reading and dreaming up 4E adventures (that I unfortunately never got to run). That edition had a lot of advice and tools for making combat interesting that I've tried to incorporate in 5E (synergy between monsters and reasons why they would work together, the importance of enemy placement, impacts of hazards and terrain features, terrain powers, etc) and it led me look at D&D and video game RPGs with more of an eye toward encounter design (examining how different party compositions in the series Etrian Odyssey could wildly change the difficultly of certain enemy groups was also eye opening). Unfortunately, I feel like my RP and description skills as a DM are somewhat lacking, though I'm finally going to get to actually run a PC again soonish and will have an opportunity to practice those sides of the game without having to run the whole thing. It would be nice for WotC to provide some kind of advice for what different classes and subclasses are strong and weak at and how to craft encounters appropriately. However, there's the wrinkle that pre-published adventures won't be able to provide encounters tailor-made to individual parties in the books.
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Sep 2, 2022 17:18
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When it comes to monks I think the bigger issue is how 5e treats combat. Damage is king, and often times just dealing damage immediately is better than attempting to apply conditions or penalties, especially when those other options come from limited resource pools like spells per day. There are some exceptions to this that will likely increase damage output immensely (haste comes to mind) which makes those abilities worth spending the actions to use. Monks, with their relatively low damage output, thus become stunning strike monkeys, spending their ki in the hopes that they will enhance everyone else’s superior damage. We thus have to analyze how combat is working from a mechanical standpoint, and how players are interacting with it, to better judge how to fix a class like the monk, which gets consistently outshined by almost every class in the primary method in which they can engage with the game world, ie through combat. 4e monks are very good, and I think could be a model for how future monks should work, at least in part. Instead of a bonus action, 4e monks can attack with an unarmed strike as a free action once per turn (with additional riders, like being able to attack two separate targets at level 11, and eventually every enemy adjacent to you). This is both thematic and mechanically elegant, bound by the damage potential of an unarmed strike, and instantly makes monks distinct and recognizable from other martial classes. I think starting with that small change is a good step towards fixing them.
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Sep 2, 2022 17:45
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Cool kids get Bracers of Defense on their Wizards just so they don't have to cast Mage Armor daily.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:08
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RC Cola posted:Do you mean bracers of defense that do that and can be used by most casters and barbarians? No, I mean something as cheap and available as a shield. This is about hypothetical monk buffs, and given them a shield that isn't a shield is an easy change.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:12
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Zurreco posted:Cool kids get Bracers of Defense on their Wizards just so they don't have to cast Mage Armor daily. Why would that cause them to stop casting Mage Armor? Bracers of Defense don't work with Armor. Actual Armor. They work with Unarmored Defense, the natural armor like Unarmored Defense of things like Dragon Sorcerers, the 17 AC of Tortles, and with Mage Armor. That said if you want to increase the Monk AC you absolutely have to add it in to the base AC calculation of Unarmored Defense, and not just let them use a Shield otherwise their potential AC will not actually increase, because Bracers of Defense don't work with Shields.
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Sep 2, 2022 18:39
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Toshimo posted:"My character exists to serve as a button for another class to be superior" is not an ideal design. I disagree with this extremely, like maybe i'm misunderstanding you but this is a collaborative cooperative game. On a boss fight or encounter It's cool that there are things that a monk can do to help open up an enemy for a larger hit. Like Monks I think have poor numbers in general and should get buffed, not gonna disagree there. But like one of my favorite things to do in the game is use like Commander's strike, on my battlemaster, with a pocket rogue or paladin, or like Path to the grave on a my cleric, or whatever to help other people do their thing.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:27
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St0rmD posted:I don't know about assigning variable permissions to whole wiki pages, but I'm pretty sure at least World Anvil (never used Campfire) has separate Player and GM sections on Wiki pages, so you can put info in the GM section of any page to prep it and as playes learn it, move it up into the player section. It's not really intended to be like, just pages upon pages of dry lore, its just more for "Here's general information, easily searchable, that you're character knows that you can check whenever."
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Sep 2, 2022 19:28
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The problem with monks as a controller is that at best they're a single target controller and the players are usually outnumbered. And if the players aren't outnumbered either the monk's strike won't work which is lame for them, or it will work which is lame for everyone else.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The problem with monks as a controller is that at best they're a single target controller and the players are usually outnumbered. And if the players aren't outnumbered either the monk's strike won't work which is lame for them, or it will work which is lame for everyone else. This is my problem with the ranger too. I'm playing one in an Eberron game and we're frequently surrounded but I just end up plinking away at single enemies while our wizard and bard are blasting/stunning groups, even with my beast companion
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Sep 2, 2022 19:42
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change my name posted:This is my problem with the ranger too. I'm playing one in an Eberron game and we're frequently surrounded but I just end up plinking away at single enemies while our wizard and bard are blasting/stunning groups, even with my beast companion So ranger has tons of answers to this, Spike Growth is foremost among them at low levels. Once you get third level spells Conjure Animals is your best way for handling mobs.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:49
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Madmarker posted:So ranger has tons of answers to this, Spike Growth is foremost among them at low levels. Once you get third level spells Conjure Animals is your best way for handling mobs. And Fey Wanderer's Dreadful Strikes incentivize attacking multiple foes.
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Sep 2, 2022 19:52
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Facebook Aunt posted:So, casters then? Very athletic casters. Is everyone in a wuxia movie a monk? Aren't some of them sorceresses and things? Wuxia is more a setting than a class, right? Sorry, I'm not that familiar with the genre. When I did a class remix, I made Monks hybrid casters, who use their ki like the spell point optional rule in the DMG. They can also do some sorcery metamagic out of ki. And they got a substantial ki boost. That extra magic can also just be spent to fuel their basic abilities. Like Sorcerers, I think Monks get a bit underrated because they have a lot of combat versatility but so many encounters in some groups end before such things can be useful. You can run away from or toward someone if you need to, or dodge, or boost your damage (only to reasonable levels, sure, not paladin crit-fishing levels), you have a lot of potential tools especially if backed by a reasonable amount of equipment, and you are at least in theory good at hunting enemy spellcasters, triggering a bunch of concentration checks plus potentially stunning. When all the PCs are L13, stopping an enemy archmage from using a L8 or L9 spell is pretty priceless and it isn’t always going to be the paladin or warlock or wizard PC who is in a position to do it.
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Sep 2, 2022 20:17
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