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He just said something like "think of the wonders we can create in Middle-earth with the forge" no specific goal was mentioned
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Sep 2, 2022 21:43
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:He just said something like "think of the wonders we can create in Middle-earth with the forge" no specific goal was mentioned He is an empty cup looking for an idea to fill it with, and Sauron has just the thing to sell him on. He's a rudderless venture capitalist with all the money and no brains, and our boy Saul Badman is about to come strutting in and go "Hey man, have you heard of NFTs?"
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Sep 2, 2022 21:49
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AlternateAccount posted:You don't owe a show ten hours of your life to appraise it. If it fails in the first 20%, it fails. Sure, some people are just throwing poo poo at the wall, but still. Many of the shows I really enjoy started out pretty rough. It's probably not the case here, but many pilot episodes differ vastly from the rest of the series and even the rest of the season, and could even be a much older version of the show that they put in front for exposition but isn't indicative of what the show eventually became. The show makers start to see what isn't working and change up. From the first two episodes. It starts slow and seems really more just to show off the world building and build hype than move the plot along, but it's watchable, and I'm willing to give it a chance.
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Sep 2, 2022 21:52
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nine-gear crow posted:Honestly, I rather like the look of Celebrimbor after seeing the show's characterization of him. It really sells the idea that he is in fact a guy who's going to get absolutely snookered by and then brutally murdered by Sauron in due time. Ofc there was the usual crowd of "I don't want a strong girl in my children show from the 80ies". My main gripe with her is this: one of the reasons she became an angry caricature of the original character, was because He-Man never told her about his secret identity. And the worst part: He-Man: I died Teela: Yes, and the rest of us had to live with that. Blame your friend for sacrificing himself to save Eternia, talk about entitlement. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 21:57
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:He just said something like "think of the wonders we can create in Middle-earth with the forge" no specific goal was mentioned nine-gear crow posted:He is an empty cup looking for an idea to fill it with, and Sauron has just the thing to sell him on. He's a rudderless venture capitalist with all the money and no brains, and our boy Saul Badman is about to come strutting in and go "Hey man, have you heard of NFTs?" Alright, then it's totally possible that stranger man is Annatar. I hadn't considered that. Celebrimbor could have a goal in mind that he just hasn't mentioned, or he could have none, since they haven't mentioned one at all. I'd say Annatar, if he is the stranger, should be prettier (the show even had one of the characters point out how un-pretty he is), but that can come later. Shave and a shower can do you wonders. I still say he's Gandalf, though, even if that makes less sense. I just don't see them making a LOTR show without at least one wizard, and if you're gonna have one...
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Sep 2, 2022 21:57
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Hammerstein posted:I see that different, because the one of the reasons she became an angry caricature of the original character, was because He-Man never told her about his secret identity. But the worst part was this: Again, the show is fairly unsubtle about telling you "TEELA IS WRONG AND NEEDS TO GROW THE gently caress UP" because her anger is both misplaced, and yet coming from a place of legitimate pain and is corroding her life, and she's only able to attain her destiny by letting go of that pain and anger and loving apologizing to everyone in her life she was pissed at: Adam, Randor, Marlena, Duncan, the Sorceress, et al. so she's able to move on. Because that was her character arc in the show.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:04
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show was very pretty, and set pieces fit pretty well together without standing out. aside from some elvish armour that looked very 3d printed the initial part with galadriel looked awfully bad, though. not because the show is "ugly" - it's the opposite - but because it featured a bunch of awful camera panning and tracking when they could just as well kept the camera still in the gorgeous sceneries. i didn't notice it that much subsequently, but that part was sorta grating to watch, maybe also because the exposition in her opening adventure wasn't perf so far, i'm very happy about how likable all the non-elvish characters are. i don't care too much about the elves, although elrond's characterization is surprisingly good. they also have a decent balancing between serious and comedic i'd say something about issues with distance, time dilation etc, but i think a lot of those complaints probably boil down to bad editing. that's where time exists in film more than anything else after all. the trailers were hilariously poorly edited, and we can hope it's not as big of a problem for the show itself so far, the show just jumps a lot between all characters, which is fine for an establishing premise pilot where all characters are very likable, but once we start requiring tighter pacing and plot, it might start showing cracks in a poorly told story. maybe that's why i don't care overmuch about galadriel since she's kind of the protagonist, and things feel a little jumpy there the honeymoon phase of the show has a least been good fun. surprise surprise, the worldbuilding part of tolkien makes for a good time e: also lol at anyone who doesn't immediately take a liking to dira kliras fucked around with this message at 22:07 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 22:04
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skooma512 posted:Many of the shows I really enjoy started out pretty rough. It's probably not the case here, but many pilot episodes differ vastly from the rest of the series and even the rest of the season, and could even be a much older version of the show that they put in front for exposition but isn't indicative of what the show eventually became. The show makers start to see what isn't working and change up. Sure. STTNG is probably the best example. Short runs like this that are done all at once are much less likely to find their footing and improve, but it does happen.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:05
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Putting Gandalf at the beginning of the Second Age, instead of into the Third Age would open up a huge can of worms for the whole timeline. It's possible that it's Annatar, although I don't understand why he had to come down as a flaming meteor when he still had a physical form at the end of the First Age. The one thing that sprang to my eye, when he lay in the circle of flames, was the analogy to Peter Jackson's interpretation of The Eye of Sauron, which wasn't an eye at all, but Sauron's manifestation surrounded by a halo of flames.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:07
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thrawn527 posted:Alright, then it's totally possible that stranger man is Annatar. I hadn't considered that. Celebrimbor could have a goal in mind that he just hasn't mentioned, or he could have none, since they haven't mentioned one at all. Especially because the producers have straight up said that this guy, the dude who throw up all the major obvious "THIS IS SAURON GUYS" red flags is very much somehow not Sauron. So the "Who is Sauron" roulette wheel is still spinning very fast with no signs of slowing down just yet.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:09
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nine-gear crow posted:Especially because the producers have straight up said that this guy, the dude who throw up all the major obvious "THIS IS SAURON GUYS" red flags is very much somehow not Sauron. So the "Who is Sauron" roulette wheel is still spinning very fast with no signs of slowing down just yet. Now I want the first season to end like Spartacus, with every potential villain yelling "I am Sauron!", "No! I am Sauron!!".....
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Sep 2, 2022 22:12
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Hammerstein posted:Now I want the first season to end like Spartacus, with every potential villain yelling "I am Sauron!", "No! I am Sauron!!"..... This is one of the perks of having a villain who's a known shapeshifter with like at least 3 different "default" forms. loving everyone gets to be Sauron 
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Sep 2, 2022 22:14
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Sauron is someone who works with Celebrimbor, appears fair, and has inroads with elves, dwarves, and men. Obviously Elrond is Sauron.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:16
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Did not enjoy the first episode. My eyes glazed over at Galadriel spring boarding / being launched via another elves sword at a troll.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:29
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Hammerstein posted:Putting Gandalf at the beginning of the Second Age, instead of into the Third Age would open up a huge can of worms for the whole timeline. The Tolkien Professor (Dr. Corey Olsen) speculates that it is one of the Blue Wizards, which would make sense as Tolkien has stated that they were sent much earlier than the other Istari. In any case, I don't think it's Gandalf.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:33
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Just seems odd to intentionally trick the audience with like evil music, Sauron whispers, evil eye, fire with no warmth etc and then go LOL it's the opposite got you. Perhaps he'll claim to be a wizard sent by the Valar, since I think that's what Sauron did tell the elves?
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Sep 2, 2022 22:37
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Ichabod Tane posted:Did not enjoy the first episode. That part is at least consistent with the weightlessness of Elves in LoTR. I mean, they can literally run on a massive layer of snow without sinking in.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:38
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nine-gear crow posted:Especially because the producers have straight up said that this guy, the dude who throw up all the major obvious "THIS IS SAURON GUYS" red flags is very much somehow not Sauron. So the "Who is Sauron" roulette wheel is still spinning very fast with no signs of slowing down just yet. The Slim Shady Sauron guy/dude in that picture is actress Bridie Sisson, playing a character from Rhûn per this link https://time.com/6205023/sauron-the-rings-of-power-identity/
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Sep 2, 2022 22:39
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rkd_ posted:The Tolkien Professor (Dr. Corey Olsen) speculates that it is one of the Blue Wizards, which would make sense as Tolkien has stated that they were sent much earlier than the other Istari. I was already thinking of that a few pages earlier. The nice thing about the blue wizards is that you get a lot of creative freedom with them, cause it's not set in stone how they ended. Although it's suggested that ultimately they failed in their task, cause Tolkien later wrote: "indeed of all the Istari, one only remained faithful," meaning Gandalf.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:40
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Just seems odd to intentionally trick the audience with like evil music, Sauron whispers, evil eye, fire with no warmth etc and then go LOL it's the opposite got you. Everyone keeps saying Sauron whispers but I thought it was like when Gandalf uses the moth walkie talkies to call his eagle Ubers.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:41
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Corbeau posted:tldr: Though it doesn't always work quite right, I think the writers have good reasons for each case where they've deviated from Tolkien - and those deviations are largely temporal distortions rather than fundamental changes. I am more optimistic than I was upon first impressions. Well said. I agree that, to some degree, the way characters are written is a workaround for rights issues and time compression, and we're going to see the general shape of their Tolkien characterizations. Of course, that still leaves me with the fear of too-sudden swerves in behavior. At least we know Galadriel won't pull a Daenerys. William Bear fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 22:45
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Just seems odd to intentionally trick the audience with like evil music, Sauron whispers, evil eye, fire with no warmth etc and then go LOL it's the opposite got you. BetterLekNextTime posted:Everyone keeps saying Sauron whispers but I thought it was like when Gandalf uses the moth walkie talkies to call his eagle Ubers. I think there are whispers when the music is playing too. But then again, why would there be Sauron whispers if it's Sauron himself? Hammerstein posted:I was already thinking of that a few pages earlier. The nice thing about the blue wizards is that you get a lot of creative freedom with them, cause it's not set in stone how they ended. Although it's suggested that ultimately they failed in their task, cause Tolkien later wrote: "indeed of all the Istari, one only remained faithful," meaning Gandalf. I think in some work he wrote that the Blue Wizards were highly influential in the Second and Third Age in the fight against Sauron, although they did ultimately fail as you said. Just like you also said, that leaves plenty of creative freedom to imagine how the Blue Wizards fought but were ultimately corrupted, and is a nice storyline to boot.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:48
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Just seems odd to intentionally trick the audience with like evil music, Sauron whispers, evil eye, fire with no warmth etc and then go LOL it's the opposite got you. I mean it seems that no matter who he turns out to be theyre trying to intentionally head fake us. There are lots of hints that it’s Gandalf, and just as many that it’s Sauron. -Bearded man fell to earth! Yay it’s Gandalf! -he landed in a crater that looks like an eye wreathed in flame! Boo it’s Sauron! -he whispers to insects! Yay it’s Gandalf! -the insects died! Boo it’s Sauron! Etc etc.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:50
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In a few eps he's going to let a bird nest in his hair and we're all gonna be owned as it turns out he's full jacksons goofy radagast
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Sep 2, 2022 22:53
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The Stranger as Sauron makes zero sense to me. The descent-as-meteor works in broad terms, like Gandalf being ‘sent back’, as an allegory for an angel coming down from heaven; but the show would instantly collapse under the bonkers logic of trying to explain how or why the dark lord stopped gathering his strength in the north and decided the best way to corrupt the kingdoms of man would be to load himself into a magical catapult and land in a fiery confused mess deep in the wilderness. Having him as an earlier generation of Istari who can run around doing Gandalf-y things in the story but who ultimately gets corrupted or foolishly faces up to Sauron seems the most likely.
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Sep 2, 2022 22:57
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I'm still going with Balrog.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:00
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Just seems odd to intentionally trick the audience with like evil music, Sauron whispers, evil eye, fire with no warmth etc and then go LOL it's the opposite got you. that's exactly what the jj abrams trick to running shows is. create a fake mystery and misdirect for as long as possible to maintain interest with no payoff
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Sep 2, 2022 23:01
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Ok ya, the more I read about the Blue Wizards the more I agree with the goons who are theorizing that it's probably one of them rather than it be Gandalf, Saruman , Radagast or even Sauron.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:06
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Arc Hammer posted:I'm still going with Balrog. I agree. The star position thing is intriguing, because I forgot about that element, and maybe this Balrog will help with the forging of the rings, but like others have said this is an intentional head-fake. And then afterward he'll fall in a hole and become Durin's Bane.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:13
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besides a balrog i think it's pretty likely it's just some original character, maybe he's the spirit of the volcano that sauron forges the ring in and he's there to make it erupt, since that's clearly going to be a scene at some point
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Sep 2, 2022 23:15
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rkd_ posted:I think in some work he wrote that the Blue Wizards were highly influential in the Second and Third Age in the fight against Sauron, although they did ultimately fail as you said. Just like you also said, that leaves plenty of creative freedom to imagine how the Blue Wizards fought but were ultimately corrupted, and is a nice storyline to boot. The question is if Amazon wants to go to Harad, Rhûn and further into the east or south in future seasons, which supposedly is where the Blue Wizards went. The kings of these lands were under the influence of Sauron and it could make an interesting story to have the Blue Wizards stir an uprising, which would deprive Sauron of additional troops to use against Eriador. The first 2 episodes made it really hard to get a feel for the geography. Lindon and the Grey Havens are easy to find, but where on the map would the elven outposts be, where Arondir's arc is taking place?
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Sep 2, 2022 23:22
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Mentioned this in the book barn but I think it's neat that the Dwarves referred to their patron Vala by his Quenya name Aulë rather than his Khuzdul name Mahal. Far as I know Aulë doesn't have a name in the Common Tongue but Dwarves rarely speak Khuzdul outside of private, so it was a neat way for them to invoke their god when Elrond was around.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:25
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Hammerstein posted:The first 2 episodes made it really hard to get a feel for the geography. Lindon and the Grey Havens are easy to find, but where on the map would the elven outposts be, where Arondir's arc is taking place? I'll spoiler it cos it might be a surprise to some, but the map would indicate that the scenes of the Southland are taking place in Mordor.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:27
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Crapilicious posted:I'll spoiler it cos it might be a surprise to some, but the map would indicate that the scenes of the Southland are taking place in Mordor. The mountain chains you see do look a lot like the Mountains of Shadow, and a lone mountain in the distance in some shots could be Mt. Doom.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:29
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Thom12255 posted:The mountain chains you see do look a lot like the Mountains of Shadow, and a lone mountain in the distance in some shots could be Mt. Doom. Good point, I missed that. Edit: I just rewatched and paused the map part and remembered that Shadow of War plays close to the same region, now it makes sense. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 23:33
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Doesn't Sauron crucially not know about Hobbits later on? Seems weird if he'd be hanging out with their forebearers.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:45
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I like that theyve included the cult of Sauron worshipping Men Tolkien toyed with
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Sep 2, 2022 23:45
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Hamhandler posted:Doesn't Sauron crucially not know about Hobbits later on? Seems weird if he'd be hanging out with their forebearers. He doesn't know about Frodo, he's well aware of what Hobbits are and that they were a part of the Fellowship.
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Sep 2, 2022 23:50
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Finally done with Ep. 2! And finally caught up reading the in-depth discussions. Instead of contributing to ongoing points I'll just mention some notable/amusing moments: "Salted pork, malt beer" - some first-rate movie fanservice for ya The Harfoots specifically calling out Elves as being ridiculously, implausibly beautiful was hilarious "Stay out of my heads!"  I want those giant blackberries When do we find out that Elrond is half-human? The prologue in Valinor felt weird in that Galadriel was fully ready to punch another elf-kid's face in. Bliss of Aman my rear end Also there's a couple of bits of rather too-obvious foreshadowing: "...And what not to dig" and Celebrimbor's whole thing about being super-clear and specific about the forge he wants to build but he has no idea what to build with it? C'mooon. What kind of weird fuckin engineer is that. It's so bizarre a stance that it puts me in mind of that stupid-rear end bit in Men In Black where the little alien in the guy's head is gasping out his dying breaths: "To prevent ... to prevent ... *groan*" and Will Smith is like "To prevent ... struggle? To prevent ...? ... ... . . *alien shaking his head* . . .. . .. . war?" And the alien agrees "WAR" like fuckin writer buddy, he is not going to have difficulty coming up with the word "war" and Will Smith is not going to grasp for STRUGGLE to complete the sentence, who the gently caress would be saying TO PREVENT STRUGGLE, why would you guess the word STRUGGLE unless you already knew he was talking about preventing WAR, this is all just a ridiculous little dance you're doing in order to create the contrived texture of the "guy dying can't finish his sentence" storyboard panel Data Graham fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Sep 2, 2022 |
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Sep 2, 2022 23:50
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Hamhandler posted:Doesn't Sauron crucially not know about Hobbits later on? Seems weird if he'd be hanging out with their forebearers. My personal bet is that it's a blue wizard. I wasn't thinking about it until I read the thread, but it makes too much sense now that I have. Gandalf would be a big timeline shift. A blue wizard is a blank slate they can more freely write a story around.
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