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SimonChris posted:WaPo is now following this up with a hand-wringing editorial about how Biden was too mean to the fascists: The mass delusion that many Republicans are actually good people and it is "just political differences instead of literally every Republican being a horrendous piece of poo poo is possibly the strongest force in United States. I mean all the news have been saying how Biden has called GOP fascist but after actually reading what he said, he called them "almost semi-fascist" and holy gently caress what a decorum explosion when even he is barely condemning them. Basically the entire country losing their marbles over calling people "kinda-sorta-reminiscent-of-those-german-dudes" and that is just regarding the terrible politicians their terrible friends and family members vote for. Meanwhile you can call say Bernie Sanders literally Stalin and everyone just accepts it. DarkCrawler fucked around with this message at 16:31 on Sep 4, 2022 |
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Sep 4, 2022 16:20
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I'll take a charitable reading on this comment and ignore the concerning subtext. TheDisreputableDog posted:Well the actual argument being made here is that Biden blurred the lines by equating fascism to “anyone who disagrees with me”, which in fairness is pretty common in leftist circles. quote:I mean, it takes a pretty staggering lack of self-awareness to end up on the losing end of a constitutional process like SCOTUS ruling on a state law, having the ability, but not the political will, to remediate that ruling right now, and turning around and calling it anti-democratic fascism.
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Sep 4, 2022 16:35
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It's intentional. By painting Biden as a radical leftist, it moves the far right closer to "moderate". It is an intentional tactic for shifting the entire political discourse to the right and dupes a lot of people, both liberals and conservatives, that right wing talking points are reasonable and moderate positions. The media is 100% complicit in this and helps keep the narrative going.
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Sep 4, 2022 16:37
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I love how the GOP can call their opponents baby killing America haters who hate babies and drink baby blood, communists, terrorist sympathizers, cop killers, election stealing Manchurian candidates, COVID inventors, poison vaxx creators and pretty much everything up to and including being an affront to god himself while going about spending But one of the softest, oldest, mumbling, senile and most milquetoast presidents in recent memory goes "Hey, Jack, those white supremacist people that stockpile guns, stormed the capital, follow something called Q and worship Alex Jones? The ones that will kill for Donald Trump and post about it online? The GOP base? Yeah...they might be a tad dangerous to a functioning democracy. Just sayin." And the result is a giant "How DARE YOU, sir?" from these flag sucking tough guys. Idiots thinking the lighting background is eeevvviilllll and rushing online to post about the devil... along with pearl clutching editorials from WaPo, AP and the NYT that it's such a shame Biden has to be so divisive. 10 years now of Obama and Biden has been nothing but compromise and reaching across the aisle for the most part. Motherfuckers, you repealed Roe, make it harder for people to vote, gently caress with the LBGT community and over half of your constituents run around thinking I want to make Fetus casseroles when I'm not cashing Soros checks to hack voting machines and stuff fake ballots in between all the cops I kill and buildings I set fire to while I cash welfare and unemployment checks since I don't wanna work. You yell out during a SOTU address and call the commander in chief a liar. You ask me/us to mind my manners? You elected Donald loving Trump and you're gonna lecture me about decorum and being divisive? Eat poo poo, gently caress you and good on Joe for FINALLY doing and saying something. Hopefully he doesn't let it drop after the mid terms but the timing of him growing a spine is telling to me.
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Sep 4, 2022 16:50
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Lemming posted:Are you arguing that as long as it's legal, it's not anti-Democratic for the court, which was mostly appointed by presidents who got a minority of the vote, to strip people of their rights? Hmmm… I suppose it’s technically anti-democratic in that we don’t live in a strict democracy., but the context of Biden’s speech was the existential stuff like insurrections and electoral denialism. It’s not like he was suggesting a reform of the electoral college or term limits on scotus. The policy stuff just doesn’t fit and strays into “basket of deplorables” territory from a political perspective.
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Sep 4, 2022 18:43
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Hmmm… I suppose it’s technically anti-democratic in that we don’t live in a strict democracy., but the context of Biden’s speech was the existential stuff like insurrections and electoral denialism. It’s not like he was suggesting a reform of the electoral college or term limits on scotus. The policy stuff just doesn’t fit and strays into “basket of deplorables” territory from a political perspective. How does it demonstrate a lack of self awareness for him to call it anti-democratic when you literally just admitted that it's anti-democratic? That's the entire point being made, the party that wants to push for minority rule to strip people's rights are anti-democratic. Should he have just said something wrong instead?
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Sep 4, 2022 18:49
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Lemming posted:How does it demonstrate a lack of self awareness for him to call it anti-democratic when you literally just admitted that it's anti-democratic? That's the entire point being made, the party that wants to push for minority rule to strip people's rights are anti-democratic. Should he have just said something wrong instead? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2022 19:40
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-Blackadder- posted:Re: The Speech God forbid a country that has murdered literally millions of people in just the last couple decades (and many, many more if you go beyond that) "collapse into fascism." This framing of "fascism" is basically contingent on not viewing non-Americans as human beings. Destroying entire countries somehow doesn't cross that line, as long as white middle-class Americans can still live normally. There's something kind of darkly comical about a country that has unquestionably been the largest global purveyor of death and suffering constantly opining on the importance of preventing the slide to fascism and ensuring that we never repeat the dark past when the death and destruction happened in European countries (instead of all those other countries where it's supposed to happen!).
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Sep 4, 2022 20:30
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Ytlaya posted:God forbid a country that has murdered literally millions of people in just the last couple decades (and many, many more if you go beyond that) "collapse into fascism." Fascism has an actual definition. It's not just "bad thing." You're operating under the assumption that something isn't bad until it is labelled fascist. "Ruining other countries" isn't something inherent to fascism or a requirement of fascism. This is like complaining that nobody is calling Somalia a fascist state even though so many people are murdered there. Leon Trotsky 2012 fucked around with this message at 20:43 on Sep 4, 2022 |
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Sep 4, 2022 20:40
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Ytlaya posted:God forbid a country that has murdered literally millions of people in just the last couple decades (and many, many more if you go beyond that) "collapse into fascism." a lot of people seem to be going pretty mask-off with rage at the collapse of the Great Red Wave (you know, from a leftist perspective) but "actually right-wing facism is cool and good and i am mad americans don't want it" is a new one (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2022 20:44
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Well the actual argument being made here is that Biden blurred the lines by equating fascism to “anyone who disagrees with me”, which in fairness is pretty common in leftist circles. The argument from the WaPo piece (and seemingly your post) was that this: quote:"MAGA forces are determined to take this country backwards, backwards to an America where there is no right to choose, no right to privacy, no right to contraception, no right to marry who you love," Mr. Biden proclaimed. That piece (and you) are wrong, however. These aren't just a few issues Biden cares about, they're specifically the issues that Clarence Thomas referenced in his concurring opinion on Dobbs v. Jackson which was a broadside on the long established legal concept of substantive due process. Getting rid of substantive due process (which is their aim) is a direct attack on certain classes of people, for no other reason than because Republicans don't like them.
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Sep 4, 2022 20:45
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evilweasel posted:a lot of people seem to be going pretty mask-off with rage at the collapse of the Great Red Wave (you know, from a leftist perspective) but "actually right-wing facism is cool and good and i am mad americans don't want it" is a new one No one is saying this.
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Sep 4, 2022 20:47
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evilweasel posted:a lot of people seem to be going pretty mask-off with rage at the collapse of the Great Red Wave (you know, from a leftist perspective) but "actually right-wing facism is cool and good and i am mad americans don't want it" is a new one Uh what is (or was I guess) the great red wave? I really don't know how wone could possibly honestly take that reading from Ytlaya's post. "The thing you say to worry about is already happening" != "Don't worry about that thing".
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Sep 4, 2022 20:55
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Baronash posted:The argument from the WaPo piece (and seemingly your post) was that this: Pretty much this. Biden calling out Proud Boys, White Supremacists, Infowars and Qanon loons, Election deniers and armed insurrectionists isn't a failure of politeness or decorum on his part and, to the extent that it's "too divisive"...well...I mean, BULLSHIT. He's referencing a very large group of people and a considerable portion of the GOP base and calling them anti democracy, pro fascist and essentially unhinged and dangerous. I don't see what's so far out about any of that because he's right and I'm tired of the Democrats and leftists in this country constantly being chided for not minding their manners for the simple act of pushing back and not accepting this poo poo to where every little thing they say or do is framed as some weird socialist movement. Partisanship in congress IS a big problem but I don't know how one goes about reasoning with these people or meeting them half way and I think it's a mistake "my side" makes over and over again. There's no negotiating with Theocratic fascists and crazy people. Sorry.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:03
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We need to vote harder next time. https://twitter.com/ChrisLynnHedges/status/1566480848530153474?s=20&t=FNv9cFPkvH_BxDm83wkLSg
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Sep 4, 2022 21:11
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MLSM posted:We need to vote harder next time. this seems like an unhinged nonsense rant that is mad at biden's speech because...uh it is hard to summarize it because it makes no sense. what parts of it did you think were of interest
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Sep 4, 2022 21:13
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All of it, especially the part about no democracy in America
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Sep 4, 2022 21:16
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The Monarch posted:Uh what is (or was I guess) the great red wave? I think the first line makes clear that his point is, basically, what I said. Your interpretation doesn't work because the whole point of the Biden speech is that it's happening, and it's something that needs to be vigorously opposed.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:20
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MLSM posted:All of it, especially the part about no democracy in America its an unhinged rant with no self-consistency whatsoever that appears to exist solely to grift dumbos into signing up for a substack it manages to complain about a speech saying democracy is under threat and we need to restore democracy as widening the divide and distracting people from restoring democracy.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:24
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evilweasel posted:I think the first line makes clear that his point is, basically, what I said. Your interpretation doesn't work because the whole point of the Biden speech is that it's happening, and it's something that needs to be vigorously opposed. No the first line does not make that clear. Ytlaya posted:God forbid a country that has murdered literally millions of people in just the last couple decades (and many, many more if you go beyond that) "collapse into fascism." If you consider America's middle eastern adventures to be fascist, which isn't unreasonable considering they were basically mass thefts from particular ethnic groups justified domestically largely as religious crusades, then saying "we need to start worrying about fascism in America" just sound silly. It's a tedious point but framing it as "fascism is good actually and I welcome it" is just dishonest and lovely.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:27
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I hate our healthcare system and big pharma as much as you might imagine a Type 1 Diabetic would, but I'd like to know in more detail why he thinks they were the root cause of excess Covid deaths and not the politicization of the vaccine and covid prevention measures by the right wing. Not to mention the currently (bipartisan) swelling anti-vax movement that's been on a tear since the late 90s (but has its roots going back to the first vaccines). Big Pharma put out miracle vaccines that were 100% free thanks to the federal government and a bunch of people "owned the libs" by rejecting it and dying with swamp lungs. The conditions in our hospitals throughout the Covid crisis (conditions which are still ongoing in many places) were certainly exacerbated by our lovely economic system and the pressures placed on workers, but as far as I can tell, the most responsible folks for excess Covid deaths are the ones sitting in congress who decided to make a global pandemic somehow a uniquely American partisan issue. He's basically twisted the facts about Covid to support his own argument about democracy, regardless of the accuracy or inaccuracy of anything else in that piece.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:31
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evilweasel posted:its an unhinged rant with no self-consistency whatsoever that appears to exist solely to grift dumbos into signing up for a substack It’s very consistent and sobering rant about the lack of democracy in America perhaps you should reread it (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 4, 2022 21:36
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Fascism has an actual definition. It's not just "bad thing." You're operating under the assumption that something isn't bad until it is labelled fascist. "Ruining other countries" isn't something inherent to fascism or a requirement of fascism. I think recent popular usage of 'fascist' has warped the definition. When used as an adjective, it just means 'bad', and when used as a noun, you can replace it with 'villain' and not really change the meaning of the sentence.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:40
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Fascism has an actual definition. It's not just "bad thing." You're operating under the assumption that something isn't bad until it is labelled fascist. "Ruining other countries" isn't something inherent to fascism or a requirement of fascism. Perhaps it would shock you that America literally inherited Italian Fascism’s and German Nazism’s anti-communist/democracy crusade after WWII by systematically arming and training fascist death squads throughout South America, The Middle East, Africa, and South East Asia in order to crush organized resistance against Western capital! Like, we even took in top Nazis from the Third Reich in Operation Paperclip to help us accomplish this! We’re even arming nazis in Ukraine now! MLSM fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Sep 4, 2022 |
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Sep 4, 2022 21:47
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MLSM posted:It’s very consistent and sobering rant about the lack of democracy in America perhaps you should reread it I don't think it even mentioned the Senate. It seems to operate under the belief that America was a democracy under some point.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:49
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I don't think mainstream media promotes fascism on purpose but what they do promote is the importance of the status quo. Capitalism abhors change. Any change, but especially expensive ones. Investments require a stable market that can pay dividends in five or ten years. If the GOP were all fascists well, something would have to change! But if we're all adults with subtle disagreements over politics than we can all agree to just get along. I actually find the nihilistic notion that the media and their masters just want everyone to keep their head down so the money can keep rolling in far more disturbing than the notion that various newspapers are fascist supporters.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:52
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MLSM posted:Like, we even took in top Nazis from the Third Reich in Operation Paperclip to help us accomplish this! Are there really people still shocked to learn that the US and USSR got some nazis for their programs? I learned that in fifth grade.
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Sep 4, 2022 21:54
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Smh if you didn't learn that from The X-Files
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Sep 4, 2022 22:01
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haveblue posted:Smh if you didn't learn that from 
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Sep 4, 2022 22:03
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MLSM posted:Perhaps it would shock you that America literally inherited Italian Fascism’s and German Nazism’s anti-communist/democracy crusade after WWII by systematically arming and training fascist death squads throughout South America, The Middle East, Africa, and South East Asia in order to crush organized resistance against Western capital! Like, we even took in top Nazis from the Third Reich in Operation Paperclip to help us accomplish this! We’re even arming nazis in Ukraine now! This is a pretty worthless definition of fascism. Was the U.S.S.R. fascist by supporting Nazi Germany early in World War II (German-Soviet Credit Agreement, German-Soviet Commercial Agreement) and taking in top Nazi German scientists at the end of the war (Operation Osoaviakhim)?
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Sep 4, 2022 22:04
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MLSM posted:It’s very consistent and sobering rant about the lack of democracy in America perhaps you should reread it I found this part pretty silly: quote:It will do no good, as Biden did on Thursday in Philadelphia, to demonize Trump and his supporters in the way they demonize Biden and the Democrats. Biden, raising clenched fists, backlit by Stygian red lights and flanked by two U.S. Marines in dress uniforms, announced from his Dantesque stage set that “Donald Trump and the MAGA Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our Republic.” This seems like a poor attempt at "both sides!". Especially given that the content of the speech going after undemocratic moves by the GOP, and the call for fair elections, promoting clean energy, making prescription drugs and healthcare more affordable, etc. Hell, if it was anything it was a call for more democracy, so the articles portrayal seems pretty disingenuous. RBA Starblade posted:Are there really people still shocked to learn that the US and USSR got some nazis for their programs? I learned that in fifth grade. People are sometimes surprised to learn the USSR did it since Operation Paperclip is much better known.
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Sep 4, 2022 22:05
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I found this part pretty silly: Well yeah, our Nazi rocket scientists were much better than their Nazi rocket scientists. Korolev, who was not a Nazi, did own however.
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Sep 4, 2022 22:38
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It isn't demonizing when it is accurate.
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Sep 4, 2022 23:04
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The Monarch posted:Uh what is (or was I guess) the great red wave? The anticipated giant gains for the Republicans in the upcoming elections. This still could happen but it appears the Dobbs ruling and Trump's stealing documents issues, 1/6 hearings etc. may be reversing the previous dynamic resulting from prevailing economic conditions and the normal trend against a newly elected President's party.
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Sep 4, 2022 23:30
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BiggerBoat posted:Biden calling out Proud Boys, White Supremacists, Infowars and Qanon loons, Election deniers and armed insurrectionists isn't a failure of politeness or decorum on his part and, to the extent that it's "too divisive"...well...I mean, BULLSHIT. He's referencing a very large group of people and a considerable portion of the GOP base and calling them anti democracy, pro fascist and essentially unhinged and dangerous. I don't see what's so far out about any of that because he's right Everything you wrote is correct, except Biden didn’t simply aim at those people - he tied those people to specific political positions on the other side of the aisle. quote:Partisanship in congress IS a big problem but I don't know how one goes about reasoning with these people or meeting them half way and I think it's a mistake "my side" makes over and over again. There's no negotiating with Theocratic fascists and crazy people. Sorry. This is straying into a weird left-wing version of “you don’t see CHRISTIANS flying planes into buildings” - being pro-life doesn’t automatically make you a qanon insurrectionist, or mean you support them. There were plenty of socially conservative people who voted for Biden, I don’t really see Democrats antagonizing them 2016-style being a winning strategy.
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Sep 4, 2022 23:46
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Everything you wrote is correct, except Biden didn’t simply aim at those people - he tied those people to specific political positions on the other side of the aisle. Anybody not standing in vocal opposition to what the Republican party has become IS the problem, and if they get upset by being called out they weren't a winnable vote in the first place. Additionally, we've seen for years now how powerful it can be to actually fight the other side and rally your base. Doing so is a drat sight better than the mealy mouthed centrist decorum poo poo that has been pissing off a lot of voters the whole time and definitely more beneficial to try than more reaching across the aisle to fascists.
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Sep 4, 2022 23:56
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This delegitimizing an election over a year later is a rather recent development. The USA is imperialistic but we are entering a new phase of fascism. Case in point, the reversal of female body autonomy.
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Sep 4, 2022 23:58
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Everything you wrote is correct, except Biden didn’t simply aim at those people - he tied those people to specific political positions on the other side of the aisle. there’s a whole lot more pro-choice people who voted republican figuring they didn’t mean it
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Sep 5, 2022 00:00
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TheDisreputableDog posted:Everything you wrote is correct, except Biden didn’t simply aim at those people - he tied those people to specific political positions on the other side of the aisle. So what? What are they gonna do about it, vote for Trump instead? If so, then they're just proving Biden right.
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Sep 5, 2022 00:02
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it's important to recognize that those extreme political positions- for example, abortion is murder- even the talking heads espousing those positions claim to abhor violence, benefit from violence committed for that purpose. It's also the natural end-result of such a position.
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