|
Slashrat posted:Watching all this hate for Rings of Power over how it is "ruining Tolkien's works", I'm left thinking where all these fools were when the Shadow of Mordor/War video games made the player OC Isildur's replacement among the Ring Wraiths, had Shelob lounge around dispensing advice in her convenient Hot Elf shapeshift form and showed how Celebrimbor's spirit is a colossal rear end in a top hat who's all-in on having his meat puppet become the next evil overlord of Middle-Earth if it means he can bring down Sauron in the process. they were very angry with those video games too
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:31
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
Spermando posted:Watch all of these paragraphs crumble into dust when the shoe is on the other foot, like with The Last Airbender. The world is not perfect, but with every day we are moving a little farther away from the time when someone like John Wayne could play Genghis Khan.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:33
|
|
|
Hammerstein posted:The world is not perfect, but with every day we are moving a little farther away from the time when someone like John Wayne could play Genghis Khan. Right, and that's good, but what you're saying is specifically that race does matter when hiring actors, in complete opposition to what you said earlier
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:34
|
|
|
Ikonoklast posted:In Unfinished Tales, Tolkien wrote that the five Istari came to Middle-earth together in TA (third age) 1000. However, in The Peoples of Middle-earth, they are said to have arrived in the Second Age, around the year SA (second age) 1600, the time of the forging of the One Ring. I don't think that's what Peoples of Middle Earth was saying? The relevant passage describes Tolkien revising the backstory of Glorfindel from the book version of LotR from "just" an elf old enough to have seen the trees into a reincarnated hero of the First Age sent to Middle Earth by the gods in the Second Age to fight against Sauron. He noted how similar that was to the Istari and mused on including Glorfindel in their numbers before rejecting the idea. Christopher Tolkien then describes two chicken scratch notes on the back of that manuscript that he deciphered as saying: quote:No names are recorded for the two wizards. They were never seen or known in lands west of Mordor. The wizards did not come at the same time. Possibly Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast did, but more likely Saruman the chief (and already over mindful of this) came first and alone. Probably Gandalf and Radagast came together, though this has not yet been said.... (what is most probable)... Glorfindel also met Gandalf at the Havens. The other two are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information. and quote:The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was (though not yet said) pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo, Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion... and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissension and disarray] among the dark East... They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of East... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have... outnumbered the West. The two notes directly contradict themselves on the order of arrival of the wizards, and on whether Glorfindel knew the blue wizards. But the first one certainly opens the door to the two arriving in a non-boat fashion since they never made it west of Mordor (and thus to the Grey Havens) and the second to them arriving during this show's timeframe. But they still place the LotR Wizards as arriving in the Third Age. This made me reread the Unfinished Tales bit about the Istari and that piece of writing mentions that their exact number is unknown, and that the fives were only those sent to the North part of ME, which also leaves quite a lot of leeway to the show.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:37
|
|
|
Spermando posted:Right, and that's good, but what you're saying is specifically that race does matter when hiring actors, in complete opposition to what you said earlier No. Because what I said was about fiction. While Genghis Khan is a historical figure who actually lived, see the part in my original post about who should play Leif Erikson in a drama-documentary that claims historical accuracy. Ok, so Wayne's movie probably did not claim historical accuracy, but it was still a really ugly case of cultural appropriation and insensitivity towards the people of Central Asia. Casting a black man as elven warrior on the other hand, creates no such issues. Cause Middle Earth is not a real place and the only people complaining about such a casting are assholes on Youtube and Twitter. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Sep 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:39
|
|
|
Spermando posted:Watch all of these paragraphs crumble into dust when the shoe is on the other foot, like with The Last Airbender. I'm fine with black or asian elves. Or a black Superman or whatever. I'm sick to death of all these bigoted MRA crybabies gatekeeping what I get watch because women or non-white people in pop-culture pinches their tiny pee-pees. I could have had Kate Winslet as Beautiful Sauron and Liv Tyler as Arwen leading the charge at Helm's Deep and because of these poo poo-heels, I didn't get that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:48
|
|
|
Remembering when Star Trek Voyager dropped and people in the proto-Internet were mad about a black Vulcan And then it turned out that Tuvok did more to establish the modern concept of Vulcans than anyone previously in the franchise had done
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:53
|
|
|
Everyone posted:I'm fine with black or asian elves. Or a black Superman or whatever. Gwendoline Christie as Éomer pls: quote:Then one rode forward... taller than all the rest; from his helm as a crest a white horsetail flowed. He advanced until the point of his spear was within a foot of Aragorn's breast.... Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Sep 7, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 10:56
|
|
|
Edit: wrong thread.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:03
|
|
|
Q. If the men of the Southlands sided with Sauron, await his return and resent their elven overlords, why are the orcs tunnelling under their land and attacking them? Wouldn't it make more sense to team up? Also, never played the game but MILF Shelob is so ridiculously funny as a concept that I can't lie, I kinda want her to show up in this just for the absurdity of it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:17
|
|
|
stev posted:I bet if he'd been alive today he'd be a lot more chill about this stuff. He'd probably have an office full of LOTR Lego minifigs and Gollum plushies. He'd only tweet once per year but it would be a sick burn on Right Wing lunatics like the time the Nazis sent him a letter asking if he was Aryan and he replied with a very politely worded,"gently caress off."
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:18
|
|
|
Sentinel Red posted:Wouldn't it make more sense to team up? In a sense, they might be. They made a big deal about there being no bodies in the ransacked village. So, either the orcs ate everybody, or they took them somewhere else.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:38
|
|
|
Lovely, apparently there are some people who seem to believe Neil Gaiman had a hand in the show, since he reacted to Elon Musk's tweet. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:40
|
|
|
Dave Syndrome posted:Lovely, apparently there are some people who seem to believe Neil Gaiman had a hand in the show, since he reacted to Elon Musk's tweet. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 11:47
|
|
|
Never underestimate the ability of morons to simp for the biggest chode around.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 12:53
|
|
|
escape mechanism posted:I don't think that's what Peoples of Middle Earth was saying? The relevant passage describes Tolkien revising the backstory of Glorfindel from the book version of LotR from "just" an elf old enough to have seen the trees into a reincarnated hero of the First Age sent to Middle Earth by the gods in the Second Age to fight against Sauron. He noted how similar that was to the Istari and mused on including Glorfindel in their numbers before rejecting the idea. You are going into the details of the two works which is good. I only mentioned that "people of middle earth" had a passage mentioning that they arrived in the second age. Not in what order or grouping.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 13:43
|
|
|
Dave Syndrome posted:Lovely, apparently there are some people who seem to believe Neil Gaiman had a hand in the show, since he reacted to Elon Musk's tweet. These people aren't even LOTR fans. I think they are lovely racists who jump on the bandwagon believing that Tolkien is something like "white culture" that needs to be protected from evil women folk and from those scary minorities.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 13:52
|
|
|
Everyone posted:I'm fine with black or asian elves. Or a black Superman or whatever. Except there aren't any eastern asian elves in this series. Or eastern asian anything, apparently, because.....???? It was really noticeable, especially with the rest of the cast being as diverse as it is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 14:19
|
|
|
Weed Wolf posted:Except there aren't any eastern asian elves in this series. Or eastern asian anything, apparently, because.....???? It was really noticeable, especially with the rest of the cast being as diverse as it is. I don't think we should kid ourselves that they've included POCs for the sake of inclusivity, They've done it to attract more viewers. The reason Amazon has allowed POC actors to be in their new show is because it will make them more money if they thought more people would watch if everyone was Chinese, then they'd all be Chinese. That being said I think the show is good and the actors are good and more inclusivity is good even if it was for the wrong reasons.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 14:38
|
|
|
Spermando posted:Watch all of these paragraphs crumble into dust when the shoe is on the other foot, like with The Last Airbender. Yeah because one group doesn’t get nearly as many opportunities as the other. Obviously people are going to be mad about nonwhite characters being cast as white when there’s already a disproportionately high amount of jobs for white actors you bozo.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 14:46
|
|
|
Butternubs posted:I don't think we should kid ourselves that they've included POCs for the sake of inclusivity, They've done it to attract more viewers. The reason Amazon has allowed POC actors to be in their new show is because it will make them more money if they thought more people would watch if everyone was Chinese, then they'd all be Chinese. Why do you think the producers thought that including East Asian actors would not attract more viewers?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 14:55
|
|
|
Man, Brear McCreary's done such a great job with the OST.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 15:07
|
|
|
Wait, do all the people who are upset know that elves and hobbits aren’t real?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 15:41
|
|
|
smug n stuff posted:Why do you think the producers thought that including East Asian actors would not attract more viewers? They're racist
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 15:50
|
|
|
nine-gear crow posted:Like I said, it's somewhere on one of the two Appendices discs for The Two Towers extended edition. Ok I’m dumb. You said twice, it’s on the appendices discs, not the commentary track. Duh.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 15:52
|
|
|
Butternubs posted:They're racist That's probably it. I was morbidly curious, so I looked for stats about TV habits by ethnicity, and it does seem like Asian Americans watch somewhat less TV than other ethnicities according to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics: https://www.bls.gov/news.release/atus.t11a.htm. (From the American Time Use survey, n=9000) Seems like from a business perspective you could see that as a relatively untapped market that might respond to seeing representation. Ah well!
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 16:07
|
|
|
there was an Asian guy in the harfoot village btw, as a small bit of tokenism
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 16:31
|
|
|
tolkienism heh
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 16:42
|
|
|
Danger posted:Wait, do all the people who are upset know that elves and hobbits aren’t real? It's probably extremely distracting for people attuned to all the dog whistles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 16:43
|
|
|
Hammerstein posted:These people aren't even LOTR fans. I think they are lovely racists who jump on the bandwagon believing that Tolkien is something like "white culture" that needs to be protected from evil women folk and from those scary minorities. it's wild when that crowd comes out and gets super upset about something and gets so many basic things wrong but they'll use this as an accomplishment in their echo chamber to boast about some sort of agenda failing it's been 2 episodes, it's been steadily decent, it might be terrible or it might be good but it's done enough in those first two episodes to want more imo on the other hand I suffered through Kenobi which was the legit worse show I've watched this year from the way the shots were framed, the dialogue, and the actual plot but you can't talk about all of that stuff without some chud coming in and going well did you know that black actress was actually super bad and it's loving annoying as poo poo
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:17
|
|
|
Thr trouble with this show is that it'll be impossible to find good discussions on youtube for years until the outrage machine moves onto the next target. There's still residuals of people yelling about Rian Johnson and Star Wars 8 nowadays but at least you can find some less reactionary videos nowadays.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:21
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Thr trouble with this show is that it'll be impossible to find good discussions on youtube for years until the outrage machine moves onto the next target. There's still residuals of people yelling about Rian Johnson and Star Wars 8 nowadays but at least you can find some less reactionary videos nowadays. The next Captain Marvel will star two women so that should keep them occupied for a few months.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:26
|
|
|
Spermando posted:Watch all of these paragraphs crumble into dust when the shoe is on the other foot, like with The Last Airbender. Actually nothing crumbles into dust. It's just you ignoring social and societal context. Black Panther having an almost entirely black cast does not make it equally as wrong as the majority of hollywood movies having almost entirley white casts. This is the same type of thinking that gets you "if we can have gay pride why is straight pride bad" or "where is white history month".
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
I wish people could see black or asian or whatever people in movies and like, not make a deal out of it. We will get there but until then this poo poo is tiresome. Yes there are black elves now you nerds loved drows anyway who cares move on, but no people can't not be racist.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:28
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:Thr trouble with this show is that it'll be impossible to find good discussions on youtube for years until the outrage machine moves onto the next target. There's still residuals of people yelling about Rian Johnson and Star Wars 8 nowadays but at least you can find some less reactionary videos nowadays. Nah. Most of the major "east egg/review" channels have covered it fine, as has Nerd of the Rings, a major LotR youtuber. New Rockstars, Screencrush, etc all have millions of subscribers and NR specifically released their video on the first 2 eps yesterday and was like "those racists are dumb I'm just gonna review this".
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:29
|
|
|
stev posted:The next Captain Marvel will star two women so that should keep them occupied for a few months. Even worse, three women, and two are PoC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:29
|
|
|
Sentinel Red posted:Q. If the men of the Southlands sided with Sauron, await his return and resent their elven overlords, why are the orcs tunnelling under their land and attacking them? Wouldn't it make more sense to team up? A: They're not awaiting his return, exactly. Thousands of years ago (AKA a couple-three weeks ago to elves) they fought on Sauron's side in the last dust-up. The men of of the Southlands have the vaguest of distorted history to the effect of "Once upon a time we had our own badass who didn't let these snooty knife-ears push us around." Orcs are likely tunneling because Sauron is trying to set up a surprise attack on the elves. The orcs are attacking the Southlanders because they consider humans to be little more than food animals. At least that's my take on it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:30
|
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Nah. Most of the major "east egg/review" channels have covered it fine, as has Nerd of the Rings, a major LotR youtuber. I really only follow Nerd's channel and Men of the West for my Tolkien fix but my recommended tab still looks like a landmine.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:33
|
|
|
Arc Hammer posted:I really only follow Nerd's channel and Men of the West for my Tolkien fix but my recommended tab still looks like a landmine. Your recs are built off who you view. Some of the people you were watching were chuds. Now's a great time to clean that up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 7, 2024 16:15 |
|
|
Jaxyon posted:Actually nothing crumbles into dust. It's just you ignoring social and societal context. No, that was my original point. It's no use writing paragraphs upon paragraphs about what races could have possibly appeared in the show if the main justification is a social issue. For that same reason, gay pride is less about celebrating sexuality and more about celebrating the fact that you can be open about your sexuality in particular. It comes off as very hypocritical and it's the first thing detractors latch onto.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2022 17:46
|
|