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Bust Rodd posted:A quick perusal of my non-cEDH lists show me that the only CIPT land that feels 100% worth it is Bojuka Bog, and after that it’s just the Ravnica Bounce duals, the MDFC Spell Lands, and the occasional Triome. Reading people come around to liking Ravnica bounce lands is strange, back in the day they used to be the first lands to cut so you didn't get blown out by Strip Mine. Is it the printing of MDFC spell/lands that made them good again? So I'm looking to do some kind of hatebear-ish deck for my friend group. Though I don't want to do full out hatebears because I think it'd come off as BM. I don't know what the word is for what I want to build - like hatebears, but only for effects that specifically deal with my opponents interacting with me and my cards? I thought "pillow fort" but according to EDHREC that's more of an offshoot of Group Hug. I was looking at Shalai and thinking of all the "you have hexproof" and "your permanents have indestructible" cards, but has anyone put something like that together and has a list?
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Sep 8, 2022 02:43
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It might be that virtually nobody is playing Strip Mine anymore, which is something I realized recently that feels weird. They synergize nicely with untappers and spell lands and are pseudo card advantage so they're better than basically every other tap land if you aren't worried about land destruction.
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Sep 8, 2022 02:47
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i run Strip Mine as often as i can for stuff like Urborg/Coffers or Homeward Path or Mystic Sanctuary shenanigans and whatnot but lol at wasting that on a bounce land, doing so puts you behind half the table on land drops in exchange for not even two-for-one-ing the third player's cards that's like stripping someone's Ancient Tomb, why do it
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Sep 8, 2022 03:09
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I will never come around on the Ravnica bounce lands. The only strictly cipt lands I think you could sell me on are the MDFCs and some of the ones with a true spell-like effect (Bojuka Bog, Mystic Sanctuary, Emeria the Sky Ruin). As for this: Batterypowered7 posted:Asked a buddy to rate duals + triomes (in general) and this is his rankings: I think you're missing the Battlebond lands, which are like 8.5s, and I'd rank Painlands higher. Basically, though, anything below a 5 on this chart is probably not worth including at this point.
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Sep 8, 2022 03:13
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Batterypowered7 posted:Asked a buddy to rate duals + triomes (in general) and this is his rankings: Move Triomes to 6, Fast to 3, move Pain to 8, add Pathways to 7, and add Battlebond lands to 9 imo. The duals that are conditional upon your other lands on board are pretty unreliable. The checklands are probably the most okay of those, and slow lands, at the very least, are better later into the game, but the rest are less appealing imo. Triomes CIPT but they're extremely versatile fetch targets, and you can cycle them late game. I don't use them, but I don't hate them, and they're the only CIPT non-utility land I don't immediately dislike. (Utility lands are sometimes pretty great in the right situations, even if they come in tapped.) Fastlands are so bad in EDH imo. Yeah they're fine on your first couple turns if you happen to start the game with them, but later on they're just as bad as any other CIPT dual. Painlands are fantastic and I like them just as much as the Horizon lands. Horizon lands may have a bit more of upside in card draw, but being able to still be used for generic mana is a plus for painlands. Painlands are usually pretty cheap to pick up, too! Stock up on 'em. Pathways are not really even "dual" lands, but they are more universal than a basic land and still come in play untapped. Battlebond lands may as well be OG duals you can't fetch. I don't think I've ever been in a situation in which one hasn't come into play untapped.
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Sep 8, 2022 03:32
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triomes are at a minimum a half step below the shocklands for their land typing alone
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Sep 8, 2022 04:16
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Coming into play tapped is a pretty strong drawback, especially in higher power level play. Being able to be fetched is fine, but there are other typed duals that can do that too and also feel pretty bad to play since they come into play tapped (or in the case of the Battle for Zendikar lands, almost always). Triomes are just a few steps better than those imo because they're more universally fetched and can be cycled later on, rather being a dead draw in late game.
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Sep 8, 2022 04:39
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Yeah I won't play bouncelands either besides a very specific deck that takes advantage of them, but I can at least see why many people would consider them better than other taplands especially in slower playgroups.
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Sep 8, 2022 04:44
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Framboise posted:Coming into play tapped is a pretty strong drawback, especially in higher power level play. Being able to be fetched is fine, but there are other typed duals that can do that too and also feel pretty bad to play since they come into play tapped (or in the case of the Battle for Zendikar lands, almost always). Triomes are just a few steps better than those imo because they're more universally fetched and can be cycled later on, rather being a dead draw in late game. Well with enemy fetch lands being at the cheapest they are going to be it's probably not a terrible idea to prioritize them over shocks and use the new DMU common tap duals or amonkhet cycle duals until a collection of shock lands can be built out. And since lands are colourless you can use as many as 7 fetch lands in a dual coloured deck compared to the one shock land. Since this isn't the clearest, you can use marsh flats (WB fetch) in a GB commander identity deck to find a land with the swamp type because marsh flats doesn't have any mana symbols on it and land is inherently colourless.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:16
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Bounce lands have a unique ability that has specific advantages and disadvantages. With the exception of the ones that tap for one colorless and one color, those are just straight trash outside of maybe a landfall deck. I would say most of the time they're better than a land that simply comes in tapped and does nothing else, if only because returning a land to your hand guarantees you'll have one to play on the next turn, and you can tap that land for Mana before you bounce it back. Your net Mana is still the same but a bounce land can be made to pay dividends that a simple tapped land can't.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:22
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Opening up with a Ravnica bounce land to dump an early Anger or Reanimation target into the graveyard is a really strong “free” game action that has won me a lot of games over the years. I only run Strip Mine in non-Green or Red decks, since those can incidentally pop lands kind of easily. I do run Strip Mine & Wasteland in my low color cEDH lists however. Painlands are literally the first duals I reach for after Shocklands & Battlebond lands when I’m deck building. Like don’t even bother looking at other lands until you’ve sleeved up your Shocks, BBs, and Painlands IMO.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:25
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I've found the packages feature on Moxfield really useful for mana bases. I have one for each number of colours. You just drop every land in there for the cycles you want to use and when you add the package to your deck it excludes the cards that don't match the colour identity.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:52
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Framboise posted:Coming into play tapped is a pretty strong drawback, especially in higher power level play. Being able to be fetched is fine, but there are other typed duals that can do that too and also feel pretty bad to play since they come into play tapped (or in the case of the Battle for Zendikar lands, almost always). Triomes are just a few steps better than those imo because they're more universally fetched and can be cycled later on, rather being a dead draw in late game. true, but at higher power level play Tarnished Citadel is considered decent, so for most people coming into play tapped just doesn't really hold as much water imho like yeah don't run too many obviously, but you can run a few. tonsssss of people run the cycling monocolors, and frankly i don't think they're generally wrong to do so
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Sep 8, 2022 08:50
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:
Strong disagree. The mono-color cyclers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, like Reliquary Tower: if your deck is getting mileage out of them, it's not that they are good, it's that you've built your deck wrong. About the only budget lands I'd run in mono-color are the Masques depletions, Fallen Empires sac lands, Crystal Vein Emergence Zone, Blast Zone, Mystic Sanctuary, Castle Garenbeig, Yavimaya, War Room, and Mutavault, with some very narrow exceptions.
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Sep 8, 2022 09:17
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Generally the fewer colors I have the more I demand from my mana base in terms of utility. Three+ color decks I’m not even bothering, just focusing strictly on having all my colors untapped every turn.
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Sep 8, 2022 10:05
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Toshimo posted:Strong disagree. The mono-color cyclers are a self-fulfilling prophecy, like Reliquary Tower: if your deck is getting mileage out of them, it's not that they are good, it's that you've built your deck wrong. The use case I've seen for cycling lands is high CMC commander but fairly low curve for the rest of the deck. Would you say that the correct answer is more straight up card draw spells? For decks where I thought I needed a reliquary tower I've been switching some burst draw over to incremental and running more mana acceleration. Reasonable response, or I missing something?
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Sep 8, 2022 11:35
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Too bad the Tainted cycle of lands only has like three of them. I think they're a solid 5.
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Sep 8, 2022 12:20
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Batterypowered7 posted:
Good thing a card like Golos is banned, because it would have really ruined their experiences compared to this.
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Sep 8, 2022 12:31
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MasterBuilder posted:Well with enemy fetch lands being at the cheapest they are going to be it's probably not a terrible idea to prioritize them over shocks and use the new DMU common tap duals or amonkhet cycle duals until a collection of shock lands can be built out. And since lands are colourless you can use as many as 7 fetch lands in a dual coloured deck compared to the one shock land. If you have the money and desire for enemy fetches, it is unwise to wait to buy them. I scooped up a bunch of each one when MH2 came out and it was a great decision. As far as CIPT typed duals... ergh. Again, I play high power/cEDH, so coming into play tapped is never, ever, ever where you want to be-- I'd rather fetch whichever basic I need over a tapped dual. If you tend to play at tables who take things a bit slower, I can see them being fine. Also if it matters, Kaldheim had CIPT typed snow duals at common, too.
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Sep 8, 2022 12:31
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I'll grab the new common CIPT typed duals and just blank out the ETB tapped part and use them as proxies for the ABUR lands at tables that don't mind.
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Sep 8, 2022 12:38
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Batterypowered7 posted:I'll grab the new common CIPT typed duals and just blank out the ETB tapped part and use them as proxies for the ABUR lands at tables that don't mind. That's the spirit!
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Sep 8, 2022 12:41
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I like Nimbus Maze. It's too bad they never made a cycle out of it, though.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:24
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Well that pretty much sums up why EDH is not a good format. Half the player base expects the other half to agree to some Geneva Convention no one attended or signed up for while smiling when they get sol ring turn 1 as if Vintage fast mana isn't a problem.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:50
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DangerDongs posted:Well that pretty much sums up why EDH is not a good format. Half the player base expects the other half to agree to some Geneva Convention no one attended or signed up for while smiling when they get sol ring turn 1 as if Vintage fast mana isn't a problem. I think that's why a lot of the people in the thread like to either 1) play with a static group and/or 2) play cEDH, that way everyone at the table has the same expectations.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:55
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DangerDongs posted:Well that pretty much sums up why EDH is not a good format. Half the player base expects the other half to agree to some Geneva Convention no one attended or signed up for while smiling when they get sol ring turn 1 as if Vintage fast mana isn't a problem. Only if you're extremely online. 99% of Earth's commander players are using unsleeved precons with their friends after school or between classes and dont care or think about any of this bullshit.
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Sep 8, 2022 14:59
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I’m a big fan of the slow lands. If you have one in your opening hand, then it’s likely you’re only keeping a three-land hand anyway, and that’s your third land to play. If you draw into one after that it’s coming down as an untapped dual like 99% of the time. I could count on one hand the number of times having a slow land in my hand has been a problem.
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Sep 8, 2022 15:34
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Bust Rodd posted:Only if you're extremely online. 99% of Earth's commander players are using unsleeved precons with their friends after school or between classes and dont care or think about any of this bullshit. But who in the year of our Lord 2022 is not extremely online?
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Sep 8, 2022 16:22
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Bust Rodd posted:Only if you're extremely online. 99% of Earth's commander players are using unsleeved precons with their friends after school or between classes and dont care or think about any of this bullshit. Well, a lot of these 99% players show up for commander night at any LGS, and complain when anything gets countered. I don't play fast combo decks in commander, and opt more for control with a decent finisher. People just don't understand they are playing Legacy with Vintage fast mana, and this is why I don't play commander anymore. I should be able to sit down at any table, play a non-cEDH deck without someone complaining the whole way through. poo poo boggles my mind.
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Sep 8, 2022 19:42
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https://twitter.com/billtriesagain/status/1568042766890070016?s=21&t=RB7RitB8pUIbNCl47DNOZA
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Sep 9, 2022 03:38
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Bust Rodd posted:https://twitter.com/billtriesagain/status/1568042766890070016?s=21&t=RB7RitB8pUIbNCl47DNOZA For better or for worse, I guess, considering that so much of MtG is influenced by Commander and how many cards, even in Standard sets, are pretty obvious plants for the format. Love him or hate him, it's hard to deny that Sheldon's had a strong influence since like, 2011 at the latest.
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Sep 9, 2022 03:55
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Regardless of whether you consider Sheldon is ruining this format or not (he’s not) he and the rest of the RC are responsible for modern Magic and the whole game’s evolution. I absolutely agree.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:32
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Balon posted:Regardless of whether you consider Sheldon is ruining this format or not (he’s not) he and the rest of the RC are responsible for modern Magic and the whole game’s evolution. I absolutely agree. Disagree. Riding the coattails of others and not completely piledriving the game into the pavement isn't worth applauding. Sheldon didn't make EDH, but he has consistently made it worse for all players.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:50
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Toshimo posted:Disagree. Riding the coattails of others and not completely piledriving the game into the pavement isn't worth applauding. Sheldon didn't make EDH, but he has consistently made it worse for all players. If Sheldon is to be believed, he and some buds made EDH. E: https://mtgcommander.net/index.php/about-us/ Lol, scroll down to his section, please. Batterypowered7 fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 04:53
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I think the more relevant question is: How was EDH popularized? What role did he play in it? Was it just word of mouth? I heard from an MTG friend in the late 00s, but I had heard of "Highlander" decks since before then. Things like The Command Zone helped but it must have been at least reasonably popular before then for them to find an audience, right? For myself, I think it's primary appeal has always been it's unique selling point; the structured casual battlecruiser element.
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Sep 9, 2022 11:07
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Just played my first 4-player game of Commander at FNM and had a blast. The venue organisers were great, they gave a little briefing at the top of the night encouraging players to mingle and have a chat about what kind of game they were after. There was a points sheet for each pod, with points awarded for knocking out players, having a lot of permanents, boardwipes, saving players, etc. Points lost for infinite combos and killing players before turn 5, but pods were encouraged to ignore those penalties if all players agreed. It was really slick and it looked like everyone was having the kind of experience they were looking for. I took a slightly tweaked Quandrix precon, and ended up in a pod with 2 other precons and an....angel tribal deck. Which promptly dropped an Angel of Destiny and some absurd lifegain triggers. We managed to snipe the Angel, but not before it wiped the player on my right. The game came down to the wire after I resolved an Ezuri's Predation, generating 10 x 4/4 beasts who came into play with 4 x counters stapled on. Unfortunately the angels player had gotten up to 92 life and I couldn't quite chew through all of it before his fliers got me. Game over in 45 minutes. Game 2, the angel player pulled out a Tergrid deck with a poo poo-eating grin. Nobody complained or anything but we made a point of stomping him pretty quick once it became clear how much discard/sacrifice we were going to have to deal with. I won that game by copying his Necrogoyf and giving it shroud with some kind of snake wizard's ability. Picked up a promo pack as a spot prize and pulled a Treasure Vault which seems pretty cool. And an alt-art Karn, Living Legacy which...doesn't. Precons are way spicier than I expected. Commander's stupid and so far I love it.
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Sep 9, 2022 11:12
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Magnetic North posted:I think the more relevant question is: How was EDH popularized? What role did he play in it? Was it just word of mouth? I heard from an MTG friend in the late 00s, but I had heard of "Highlander" decks since before then. Things like The Command Zone helped but it must have been at least reasonably popular before then for them to find an audience, right? For myself, I think it's primary appeal has always been it's unique selling point; the structured casual battlecruiser element. I think you really could just point to The Command Zone, they really were the first game in town and the first Commander content to really start the domino chain reaction. Multiple generations of commander content creators have openly credited Josh & Jimmy as being their inspirations.
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Sep 9, 2022 11:30
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Bust Rodd posted:I think you really could just point to The Command Zone, they really were the first game in town and the first Commander content to really start the domino chain reaction. Multiple generations of commander content creators have openly credited Josh & Jimmy as being their inspirations. You know, I think you might be right. At first I thought TCZ started due to the Commander Precons, but I think I am misremembering: Game Knights started from them, but the Command Zone podcast predates that, though I cannot figure out by how long.
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Sep 9, 2022 12:25
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My introduction to EDH was through Sheldon at my LCS in my early twenties. Everyone at the store would fawn over him, party for being an L5 and for being the "co-creator" of the format. Dude comes off as pompous, maybe even arrogant, but I'm glad he uses his clout (whether deserved or not) to promote lefty values. I do feel like his whole "this is what I think the format should be" is at odds with the whole "have a conversation before the game to set expectations" because he's kind of poisoned the well by setting an expectation to begin with.
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Sep 9, 2022 12:39
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Commander was definitely popular in a lot of places before The Command Zone started, though they helped grow it. But there was a very healthy community playing it as early as the mid 2000s, complete with loads of pedantic nerds arguing about it on MTGSalvation et. al. I'm not really sure how or why it spread from Sheldon's playgroup, but my LGS in New Hampshire heard about it through word of mouth and all built decks out of the Shards of Alara legendaries right after the prerelease. Edit: Found this article from 2007 that says Sheldon had been advocating it at a bunch of pro tours and grand prix. The author says that loads of people had written in talking about it, so it was already fairly popular by then for sure. https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/serious-fun/mixing-it-2007-12-11 Edit2: apparently the command zone didn't start until 2016, long after the game got popular. That feels like such a long time ago because of covid and poo poo but relatively speaking it wasn't much time. Fajita Queen fucked around with this message at 14:37 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 14:24
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Magnetic North posted:I think the more relevant question is: How was EDH popularized? What role did he play in it? Was it just word of mouth? I heard from an MTG friend in the late 00s, but I had heard of "Highlander" decks since before then. Things like The Command Zone helped but it must have been at least reasonably popular before then for them to find an audience, right? For myself, I think it's primary appeal has always been it's unique selling point; the structured casual battlecruiser element. EDH is specially called that because it jammed together Elder Dragon and Highlander formats together. Both of which are older than Standard. I mean maybe Sheldon and his group were the first to jam them together and put some momentum behind it.
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