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Good Dumplings posted:Fundamentally, the problem is that most games don't really have a game loop outside of "kill thing -> get stuff -> use stuff to kill bigger thing", so in order to give people reasons beyond "help other person kill thing/fix broken stuff" you have to bring in some other goal that isn't just valuable because it participates in the kill/loot cycle. RPGs follow, loot gets better over time, or Loot is mostly staged and the Devs know what you should have at a given time in the game. WoW is stuck in the first model and must always have stuff grow at about 30% a tier. WoWs end game (Mythic) follows the 2nd system a tiny bit to give you a really crafted gameplay and difficulty. Now a few games like Icarus are coming down the pipe that make survival a bigger deal, storms are deadly, animals are deadly, but once you figure things out survival games don't really do much more then add extra bars to keep full. Full sandboxy stuff like EvE do offer some alternative paths, as does DDO. I honestly want to see something like survival + soft PVP + sandbox with a big enough world to be an MMO.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:15
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Good Dumplings posted:Fundamentally, the problem is that most games don't really have a game loop outside of "kill thing -> get stuff -> use stuff to kill bigger thing", so in order to give people reasons beyond "help other person kill thing/fix broken stuff" you have to bring in some other goal that isn't just valuable because it participates in the kill/loot cycle. As mentioned before, this is what made SWG stand out. There was so much more than kill thing > collect item level > kill bigger thing. The interactions with other players between the combat gave so much more life to the whole experience. Players needed other players to remove decay caused by combat, they needed buffs that only a doctor could provide to do more challenging content, all gear permanently broke over time so you always had to seek out a crafter to make you new weapons and armor, and you even needed to seek out another player if you wanted to change your hairstyle. So it was "forced" grouping in a way, but it never felt like I was being punished. I had a friend play the game and never even participated in combat, all he was make droids and advertise his shop on Tatooine where another player had to physically go to if they wanted to buy one. There are just so many crazy design choices in SWG that I honestly sometimes can't believe the game existed.
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Sep 8, 2022 05:43
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I want a more accessible EVE-like game, perhaps 2D, that lets players mostly PvE to a point before they have to journey out into the wilderness and possibly get ganked while searching for treasure. But those who sequester themselves in an otherwise empty, high-risk high-reward area might be able to stake out a claim for themselves for a time. And systems that discourage but never strictly prohibit action against other players in the "safe" zones.
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Sep 8, 2022 06:15
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I too want a game that will devolve into ganking newbies and other less geared people almost immediately.
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Sep 8, 2022 07:04
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cmdrk posted:I want a more accessible EVE-like game, perhaps 2D, that lets players mostly PvE to a point before they have to journey out into the wilderness and possibly get ganked while searching for treasure. But those who sequester themselves in an otherwise empty, high-risk high-reward area might be able to stake out a claim for themselves for a time. And systems that discourage but never strictly prohibit action against other players in the "safe" zones. Isn't this just albion I like to call it I'll be online
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Sep 8, 2022 07:11
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30.5 Days posted:e: the entire gameplay of city of heroes was pretty much "leveling and big-dicking around town", right? yup, and while there are people obsessed with efficiency in today's CoH, they're considered tryhard losers by most of the playerbase and ostracized if they're dicks about it while you're playing; but it's a vanishingly small proportion of players that would do anything but be mildly disgruntled by a slower than average group. CoH has a whole suite of features that more or less accidentally set the game up to avoid most of the problems with things like dungeon finders in modern MMOs. your average group will play through 5-10 missions together doing a task force/story arc/whatever. consider all of these missions together equivalent to another MMO's dungeon run. generally, some of these missions can be sped through by sending a dude to the end to teleport everyone to the boss, satisfying people who want to rush; but some of the missions will be "defeat all" missions, where you have to clear the whole instance. since each mission is just a "portion of a dungeon" these instances are usually not too large, so speedy players won't find them too objectionable, but everyone else gets to do what they wanted to do in the first place (kill stuff). the mix of mission types and enemy groups for each unit of content is different so it feels like there's a lot of variety to the game despite the base system for all of this being pretty uncomplicated. additionally, and this is very important, you can take on any level of content below yours and still receive rewards pretty close to what you'd get for tackling on-level content, the game just lowers your effective level to match what you're doing. so somebody that wants to run a level 8 task force doesn't have to wait for a bunch of other low-level players, anyone on the server can choose to join in if they feel like running that content and they won't feel like they're wasting their time at all. you even continue progressing in an end-game progression system by doing literally any content at max level, so it's not unusual for a group made up almost entirely of max level people to be running level 20 content together. CoH's combat is also pretty simple most of the time, so you can chat - some people do full-blown roleplaying while still being like 90% effective - but with some more intense encounters to keep you excited. this also has the benefit of making team composition so hilariously flexible that you never have to actually advertise for specific roles or worry about not getting into a group because you're playing the wrong class; but you're rarely going to feel like taking a nap playing CoH because it's a very action-oriented game by MMO standards. if the game wasn't built on horrible spaghetti pascal making the pace of updates from the private server folks pretty slow i think it would be one of the healthiest MMOs going despite being officially dead Jazerus fucked around with this message at 07:28 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 07:23
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PyRosflam posted:But yes, the leveling game is 100% getting levels, your gear will replace as you level so meh about it. End game is a RPG looter. Just using less RNG as items are pre-made and boss specific. Given crafted gear cant really get better (a few times It did I think) and the lack of item decay, you cant really use any econ model other then making some stuff super rare or making twink gear. Wow Ascension recently made it, so all heroic gear can be bought with badges, which you can get from not just doing heroics, but also crafting, raiding, world PvE/PvP, and world bosses.
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Sep 8, 2022 07:49
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Hellioning posted:I too want a game that will devolve into ganking newbies and other less geared people almost immediately. That's why he mentioned the EVE model. In the safe central empire zones you can still attack other players, but guards will spawn that will 100% guaranteed kill you if you do. People don't typically gank newbies, they gank established players flying very expensive and undertanked ships, thinking they don't have to take PVP into account because they're in empire space.
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Sep 8, 2022 09:00
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Jazerus posted:yup, and while there are people obsessed with efficiency in today's CoH, they're considered tryhard losers by most of the playerbase and ostracized if they're dicks about it while you're playing; but it's a vanishingly small proportion of players that would do anything but be mildly disgruntled by a slower than average group. CoH has a whole suite of features that more or less accidentally set the game up to avoid most of the problems with things like dungeon finders in modern MMOs. How does group construction work? Like is there a dungeon finder, or?
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Sep 8, 2022 09:17
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30.5 Days posted:The end-game was a loving mistake, and all wow content past 2005 was designed by people who considered EQ's endgame to be the "real" game. If you make the "real" game to be the handful of hours of gameplay you enjoy after 10-20 hours of chores + an additional 3-5 hours of chores every week, then of course people are going to be lovely about anyone slowing down their chores. Players will find the most optimal path and try to push other players towards it in the best of circumstances, but when you don't even want to be here today, things are intensified quite a bit. To have a chill game, the whole game has to be the game. If you want leveling and doing dungeons to be chill and don't want people to act like they have somewhere else to be, then they have to not have somewhere else to be, that has to be the game. EQ came from MUDs where the whole point was to level to a million and if players started to complete content they'd pull out notepad and write a bunch of new content. The end-game was created because you can't do that with 3D graphics. I don't have a solution but it probably has something to do with prestiging and finding ways of adding variety to the leveling process so people don't mind doing it a ton of times in a row, and not having anything to do at max level except big dicking around town. Leveling is largely to blame for this. You mentioned MUDS leveling to a million, but that means that each individual level doesn't really count for that much. In modern MMOs where you have only like 80 levels, you start having the issue where friends that are playing together need to be constantly playing together or someone will start to creep ahead or fall behind in level, and then it's a completely different set of quests and instances after a certain point. If Johnny the Powergamer is in your friends group then you're never going to see him because he is constantly 10 levels ahead of everyone else...at least, not til the "endgame"/level cap. Not many people want to be either constantly carrying or being carried through events by their one overleveled friend. The CoH or FFXIV level down mechanics can help but constantly being hamstrung to play with your friends on stuff that is less mechanically complex than what you're currently doing breeds annoyance, so the push to catch up is always there.
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Sep 8, 2022 13:17
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Phigs posted:I wonder if you could disincentivize speeding through instances. An immediate thought is reward time spent in an instance but then that leads to AFKing. EQ had a substantial death penalty, theoritically including loss of gear. Also, AOE wasn't particularly effective (IIRC because agro was very touchy + casters were very squishy :+ damaged mobs would run:) edited :: gaj70 fucked around with this message at 16:51 on Sep 8, 2022 |
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Sep 8, 2022 16:43
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gaj70 posted:EQ had a substantial death penalty, theoritically including loss of gear. Also, AOE wasn't particularly effective (IIRC because agro was very touchy + casters were very squishy :+ damaged mobs would run:) Unless you did it properly. In Luclin, in the deep, you could pull half the zone and get ridiculous exp. Have clerics with multiple DA loaded to pull, abusing the 4x 18 seconds invulnerability and horrendous pathing issues to pull enormous trains of mobs. Have 2 enchanters (a few feet abpart, facing eachother slightly) cycle through their various AOE stun spells to lock the mobs up. Keep pulling and adding mobs to the murderball. Once you got most of them, the wizard in your group alt-tabs back in the game and unloads the AOE. You could get 2-3 AAs *per pull* that way 
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Sep 8, 2022 17:03
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Best AoE in EQ was bards kiting half of a zone and slowly (very slowly) chanting them to death. It was fun because it was basically “don’t mess up even once” or the huge train stuns you and instakills you.
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Sep 8, 2022 17:10
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No no no, the best AoE was in UO where you would summon a whole slew of blade spirits in a dungeon that would go wild and kill not only all the mobs, but also you and every other blue player in the dungeon, turning you into a murderer and forcing you to become an outcast roaming the wilds until the world eventually forgot your horrific crimes.
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Sep 8, 2022 17:13
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gaj70 posted:EQ had a substantial death penalty, theoritically including loss of gear. Also, AOE wasn't particularly effective (IIRC because agro was very touchy + casters were very squishy :+ damaged mobs would run:) As others mentioned, AE groups could get it going in a couple places provided they had good group composition. Two enchanters dropping color stuns, a puller, and some wizards could setup shop in any zone that didn't have mobs with high resistance, high hp, or casters that would break up mobs coming into camps. I know that FG in particular was a hotbed for AE groups. The height of min/max AEing in EQ were shakerpage groups in PoValor/PoFire.
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Sep 8, 2022 17:46
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Anno posted:Best AoE in EQ was bards kiting half of a zone and slowly (very slowly) chanting them to death. It was fun because it was basically “don’t mess up even once” or the huge train stuns you and instakills you. That was one of the most disruptive playstyles. Bards would lock an entire zone down and slowly chip away. If they died or zoned out the entire zone would get trained over and over for the next 45 minutes. The training bard rarely got punished on p1999. Bards in "gm supported" guilds never saw penalties. It definitely didn't help that bards chose popular leveling zones for this. There would be 6+ full groups with nothing to fight.
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Sep 8, 2022 18:16
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Anno posted:Best AoE in EQ was bards kiting half of a zone and slowly (very slowly) chanting them to death. It was fun because it was basically “don’t mess up even once” or the huge train stuns you and instakills you. I went with the swarm kiting route instead. pull up to 5 mobs, tell one to attack his friends and they all fight it out. break charm when hes almost dead and now your killing ~3% hp pool instead of all of it. You can do this till they all die. Your still living on a razor edge, but zones in POP like disease or nightmare or even valor had camps No one but bards wanted.
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Sep 8, 2022 18:31
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30.5 Days posted:How does group construction work? Like is there a dungeon finder, or? advertise in the server-wide lfg channel. as long as you aren't trying to put together a group at like 5 AM eastern time you'll usually get a full team of 8 within 5-10 minutes, sometimes even less. there is always a large population of people looking for a group but not willing to lead one (even though you do literally nothing special as the leader most of the time) so you can pull people in for even the most obscure content quickly, and between various fast travel options and the generally fast movement around maps in CoH it's trivial for the group to meet up as well
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Sep 8, 2022 19:32
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Why was Amazon's Lord of the Rings MMO cancelled? Turns out making an MMO is very complicated.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:42
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Well you know they could only really commit to making one lovely MMO, and when the choice is between one of the best known IPs in the world and colonialism, you know Amazon only ever had one choice.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:50
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Unhappy Meal posted:Why was Amazon's Lord of the Rings MMO cancelled? Turns out making an MMO is very complicated. "Managing licensing rights when the company you're negotiating with gets bought mid-negotiation" translates into "making an MMO" somehow
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Sep 8, 2022 21:52
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Bruceski posted:"Managing licensing rights when the company you're negotiating with gets bought mid-negotiation" translates into "making an MMO" somehow Just sucking all the fun out of that click bait headline.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:58
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junan_paalla posted:Make large amounts of the game revolve around open world dungeons and other "elite" zones that require 2-6 players to team up, and give tons of incentive and make it very easy and painless to do so. Condition the players to it, so when you're going to a zone the first thing you do is find a party with an open slot, and give good rewards for helping your teammates complete their objectives. This is exactly what they tried in New World and it actually works really well but the problem with open-world vs instanced is that players just coordinate massive zergs of 40-50 players and join groups once they’re in the zone. Doesn’t matter if 50 people are technically in 12-13 groups, they’re still smashing the bosses. If you don’t instance those zones this will always happen. 30.5 Days posted:Isn't this just albion If I had a buck for every time I’ve seen someone outline an ideal feature or design for an mmo and just describe Albion Online I’d have enough to register more SA accounts to promote Albion Online.
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Sep 9, 2022 02:19
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Hellioning posted:I too want a game that will devolve into ganking newbies and other less geared people almost immediately. Ugh.. every time someone mentions PVP there's the knee jerk reaction. Some MMO players, deathly afraid of player killing, have no imagination whatsoever to view PVP as anything else than "grief noobs". Must be PTSD or something.
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Sep 9, 2022 13:44
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Lifroc posted:Ugh.. every time someone mentions PVP there's the knee jerk reaction. Spare a thought for the honorable PVP duelist, who spurns the idea of attacking those less powerful than him, and will end up a naked corpse on the side of the road when it turns out his opponents subscribe to the philosophy of "outnumber and overpower" and "winning"
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Sep 9, 2022 13:48
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The people who want honorable duels and fair fights are sadly always going to be the minority. Remember battleground twinks in WoW? How they all swore up and down it was because they found low level PVP more fun and balanced, and when they added xp to BGs, they let you turn off the XP reward but you got put into a seperate pool of players and basically no one did it because in the end of the day most of these people just liked being able to crush people with no resistance. and having to face only other twinks was not what they desired.
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Sep 9, 2022 14:20
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Ibram Gaunt posted:The people who want honorable duels and fair fights are sadly always going to be the minority. Remember battleground twinks in WoW? How they all swore up and down it was because they found low level PVP more fun and balanced, and when they added xp to BGs, they let you turn off the XP reward but you got put into a seperate pool of players and basically no one did it because in the end of the day most of these people just liked being able to crush people with no resistance. and having to face only other twinks was not what they desired. Lol that rules
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Sep 9, 2022 14:26
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Lifroc posted:Ugh.. every time someone mentions PVP there's the knee jerk reaction. The only thing that can get me wanting to pvp is when cool transmog gear, neat pets and other random cosmetic things are gated by a pvp reward system and even that has often basically failed to work to get me to pvp. If pvp is not fun for me I will not pvp because playing an mmo is (or SHOULD be) 'fun time' and not 'unfun time', hope that helps
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Sep 9, 2022 14:54
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open world pvp but when you die you have the option of haunting your killer and can constantly make them trip, fumble, and have a bad tummy
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Sep 9, 2022 15:00
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:open world pvp but when you die you have the option of haunting your killer and can constantly make them trip, fumble, and have a bad tummy OooOOoOooOOOoooo
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Sep 9, 2022 15:13
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Open world pvp but every time you kill someone you get an invisible "guilt" debuff which builds up over time until you next login where you find your character has donated all of its gold to the Balmoran Home For Wayward Youths
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Sep 9, 2022 15:24
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PVP players never look at the long term of what they are doing, and even if one does, all the others wont. They wont feed the sheep to get them bigger (and more value from killing) they just yell "get good noob" which turns off a lot of people. Even in MMOs it feels like PVP players want, "Multi-kill", "Death Blossom", (even larger kill streak announcement here). Followed by finding ways to kill with minimal risk. This blocks a LOT of people from even trying a game more then a short time. Players need a reason to keep going, if you kill them endlessly in noob zones guess what, noobs go poof and never come back for you to ever hunt again. If the wolves kill all the sheep, the sheep are gone and the game will die as the wolves eat each other fairly quickly.
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Sep 9, 2022 15:54
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You really need a game where the power disparity isn't so ultra wacky to have healthy PVP I think. Vanilla WoW managed this somewhat. I used to watch a guy who played on Nostralius and then Classic and would stay like level 30-40 range and go after level 50s and could get away with it since despite him being at an obvious disadvantage, playing smart and having good gear for his level meant it was possible to go toe to toe and actually win a good amount of time. Nowadays anything like 5 levels higher will just instantly obliterate you due to the sheer increase in power every level and piece of gear gets you. I had the misfortune of playing on a PVP server and Alliance ontop of that for a long stretch of time to play with friends and I remember how awful it was to do anything since you'd just be ganked by bored max level people and there's nothing interesting about that. I distinctly remember one scenario where I was trying to level in Redridge and two max level guys just had the place on lockdown and anytime even a single max level Alliance player came they'd flee and then come back immediately after. They would do this all day for like a solid week, there's nothing interesting about that at all for anyone besides the griefer, yet for some reason people think this is what MMOs should be like at all times, and don't get why it's not sustainable at all. Ibram Gaunt fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 16:01
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i played RF Online briefly which was basically sci-fi lineage II and the PK was rough but there were always roving bands protecting low-level areas and keeping things from getting out of hand because there was an understanding that keeping people in your faction around and feeling like they had recourse against PKers would give them more bodies to work with in the Chip Wars, the large-scale faction vs. faction vs. faction event. even with all that the cool robot faction was wildly overpopulated and still ran pretty rampant against everyone else because everyone wanted to be a cool robot
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Sep 9, 2022 16:20
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Ibram Gaunt posted:You really need a game where the power disparity isn't so ultra wacky to have healthy PVP I think. Another trouble is that all of the abilities/weapons need to be balanced around PvP, which tends to make them boring/bland for PvE. It's hard to think of a game that had compelling versions of both. Warframe (of all things) had an interesting idea: instanced PvP arenas in which your abilities worked differently + your weapons had different stats.
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Sep 9, 2022 17:25
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Yes, but consider that the Conclave is a joke and very few people actually play it.
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Sep 9, 2022 17:42
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gaj70 posted:Another trouble is that all of the abilities/weapons need to be balanced around PvP, which tends to make them boring/bland for PvE. It's hard to think of a game that had compelling versions of both. Guild Wars 1 did this and it was great (I wish GW2 was more like GW1).
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Sep 9, 2022 18:43
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Dark Age of Camelot the GOATPVPMMO
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Sep 9, 2022 19:01
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Groovelord Neato posted:Dark Age of Camelot the GOATPVPMMO Agreed. Not only is the RvRvR structure a favorite of mine, but the way they organized PvE around that was amazing. Your realm owns DF? Go on in and rack up some great xp. Go too far in? Well now there's other players from another realm still there and you have a fight on your hands. Even the frontiers offered great risk vs. reward in terms of PvE xp. Great, now I want to hop on a private server again.
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Sep 9, 2022 20:50
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I played very little DAoC but my limited experience leads me to believe that its form of PvP (and Warhammer Online's) are optimal, all though Warhammer Online had a laundry list of other issues that held it back. EVE is also pretty good.
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