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Arc Hammer posted:Was that game in development before or after the video game company bought out the Lord of the Rings rights? Before.
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Sep 9, 2022 03:04
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How elves actually fight: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QorLGy6xjvc&t=19s
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Sep 9, 2022 03:05
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Kaedric posted:Here is Fingolfin challenging Morgoth: Buddy, Elrond's dad sailed a flying boat into a dragon so big his fall knocked over multiple mountains
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Sep 9, 2022 03:06
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Kaedric posted:Here is Fingolfin challenging Morgoth: quote:Then Morgoth hurled aloft Grond, the Hammer of the Underworld, and swung it down like a bolt of thunder. But Fingolfin sprang aside, and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth.... Many times Morgoth essayed to smite him, and each time Fingolfin leaped away... How exactly would you make this look cool on TV though? Someone just dropping down a hammer and an Elf stepping aside does not exactly make for great visual spectacle or interesting combat. It's fine if you read about it happening in one sentence, not so much seeing it continuously throughout a fight scene. Besides, the words 'Hammer of the Underworld' and 'like a bolt of thunder' create a much more epic image in my head than a realistic fight between a dude with a hammer and a dude jumping aside.
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Sep 9, 2022 03:08
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rkd_ posted:How exactly would you make this look cool on TV though? Someone just dropping down a hammer and an Elf stepping aside does not exactly make for great visual spectacle or interesting combat. It's fine if you read about it happening in one sentence, not so much seeing it continuously throughout a fight scene. are you... what?? It's a giant dude smashing an enormous hammer down on the ground hard enough to cause giant fissures in the earth, and this nimble elf leaping 30 feet to dodge away from the enormous impact and then flying back in to sting the giant with his sword. It's gotta be the most built-for-film spectacle in Middle Earth.
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Sep 9, 2022 03:34
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Phenotype posted:are you... what?? I think their point was that you can't make the scene look cool without including things certain people are complaining about, that elves can definitely do and would have to be able to in order for the plot to proceed in the way it does.
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Sep 9, 2022 03:48
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Phenotype posted:are you... what?? Exactly my point, as Noam Chomsky put more clearly. If stuff like this happened in the lore I don't get why some people are so offended over Galadriel launching herself off of a sword and killing a troll singlehandedly, even going as far as to say such feats do not belong in Middle Earth. And as you indirectly illustrated too, I don't see the difference in 'impossibility' between an Elf running up a giant mace or leaping 30 feet out of the way dodging fissures.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:19
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Even little mortal Eowyn lops off the fell beast's head in one swing.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:23
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So I have a bunch of dumb questions about the series based on the quick prologue at the beginning of the series. -How did that work with the world being lit with two glowing trees? Was there a day/night cycle? Just how big were they? -Wouldn't Morgoth pissing on the trees to put them out cause global extinction events? How much time had passed between that and Eru getting the pilot light lit on the sun? -If elves are so long lived how is it middle earth isn't just swarming with them? Even if we factor all the massive God wars and stuff that went down they're still going to be better off than other races certainly. -Why did most of the elves stick around on middle earth after the big bad was defeated? Isn't the island with the glowing tree their homeland? -How did Sauron convince the dwarves to take the rings? They seem really skeptical in general, like the discussion between Durin and his dad the king make me think they've dealt with scammers and moochers their whole existence, you mean to tell me Sauron is just going to barge in there like some Kirby vacuum cleaner salesman and convince them to take them?
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Sep 9, 2022 04:23
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All this poo poo is subjective but I agree that the over the top flourishing, flipping, and posing during the fights in both Jackson's trilogy and this show are annoying. Galadriel's fight with the ice troll had several moves that were acrobatic but not dumb looking, where she used her speed and prowess to outmatch it. But as another poster said, having her strike edgelord anime poses while looking away from her opponent and flipping the blade around just doesn't make her seem any more bad rear end than not doing those things would. It doesn't impact how I feel about the show, but it does feel like a lost opportunity to make the fight scenes more impactful and less basic.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:29
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rkd_ posted:Exactly my point, as Noam Chomsky put more clearly. If stuff like this happened in the lore I don't get why some people are so offended over Galadriel launching herself off of a sword and killing a troll singlehandedly, even going as far as to say such feats do not belong in Middle Earth. Yeah and the issue with characters above base humans in terms of power being incapable of superheroics would be that things like trolls would just turn everyone into wet paste on the ground. Morgoth and Sauron would just win outright. It's been quite a while since I read the books but the only reason the battle of Minas Tirith is won is because Aragorn shows up with the green ghost tide and instagibs all the baddies. One of the themes/tropes/? in LotR is that the closer you are to Eru the more powerful you are and evil can only corrupt what was already created by Eru.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:32
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Panfilo posted:So I have a bunch of dumb questions about the series based on the quick prologue at the beginning of the series. I may be wrong but... -How did that work with the world being lit with two glowing trees? Was there a day/night cycle? Just how big were they? This link gives a really great overview of that to a very specific degree: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Trees_of_Valinor -Wouldn't Morgoth pissing on the trees to put them out cause global extinction events? How much time had passed between that and Eru getting the pilot light lit on the sun? Well, technically Ungoliant drank the light of the trees but you'd be mistaken to assume this world has anything in common with ours in terms of physics, nature, etc. Sure, it all looks like our world to a degree and there are humanoid beings but the world is magical in the extreme. God, Eru, is a really-existing being who interfaces with the world in a biblical old testament sort of way - there is no extinction unless he wills it or someone like Morgoth or Sauron causes it and even then he would just stop it. In short, the only reason we see fighting or a war is because Eru's point to Morgoth and Sauron is that you don't need absolute control. Eru sung the universe into existence and so he wants his creations to combat his rebellious offspring because mortal beings are actually good and desire order and justice and not because it's forced upon them. The only reason Eru sense help in the form of the Istari is because otherwise the goodly races are completely outmatched. -If elves are so long lived how is it middle earth isn't just swarming with them? Even if we factor all the massive God wars and stuff that went down they're still going to be better off than other races certainly. They die and go back to the Halls of Mandos. They're functionally immortal beyond even their physical forms. There wasn't a lot of them to begin with, a lot of them died, and due to being longer lived they just don't function on a human time scale and pop out babies constantly like us humies. -Why did most of the elves stick around on middle earth after the big bad was defeated? Isn't the island with the glowing tree their homeland? They care about it and want to improve and protect it. Goodness and empathy. There may be more. Can't remember. -How did Sauron convince the dwarves to take the rings? They seem really skeptical in general, like the discussion between Durin and his dad the king make me think they've dealt with scammers and moochers their whole existence, you mean to tell me Sauron is just going to barge in there like some Kirby vacuum cleaner salesman and convince them to take them? Dwarves are incredibly greedy. EDIT: Plus, the dwarves were resistant to the Rings' ill effects, so I have to assume they weren't very concerned if they were at all aware of their own innate hardiness. I'm not sure how the rings were given to the dwarves but I'm pretty sure if they were just dropped off the dwarves, being incredibly greedy, would certainly take them and use them. SECOND EDIT: Also, Sauron was the manipulator to end all manipulators until Eru took his ability to change form. Another theme of LotR is pride is the downfall of the powerful - Middle-Earth decays because the most powerful people become too fascinated with themselves and stop caring about other races. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 04:46
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Y'all can imagine whatever you like imagining, but nowhere in the books is the silly anime bullshit you are talking about with power levels and other nonsense. I never said anything about it not being 'possible', because there is literal magic in this world and you can 'a wizard did it' to literally anything you can think of, but the fact of the matter is Tolkien didn't write like that. Having elves walk on snow to describe their ethereal nature does not then lead to them sliding down shields while nocking five arrows at once and killing 10 different dudes in a single shot. Gimli and Legolas killing dozens of orcs, while an extreme feat of heroism and obviously something a normal shmoe would not be capable of, does not have Gimli spinning like a top and beheading 20 orcs at once in a comical fashion. Yes, LotR is fantasy, but it is (relatively) grounded. "This guy fought and killed a dragon!! That would be impossible for a normal human to do! THEREFORE he must be capable of leaping 20 stories in a single bound" does not follow. But disregarding all that, I just think it's bad choreography/what have you. If you take out legolamb jumping on top of the cave troll and point-blanking an arrow into his skull, that scene in fellowship was very exciting and showed how dangerous these creature are, and had actual stakes. Once your characters turn into looney-tunes slash-guys-behind-you badasses, it just becomes instantly boring (FOR ME). FLIPADELPHIA posted:All this poo poo is subjective but I agree that the over the top flourishing, flipping, and posing during the fights in both Jackson's trilogy and this show are annoying. Galadriel's fight with the ice troll had several moves that were acrobatic but not dumb looking, where she used her speed and prowess to outmatch it. But as another poster said, having her strike edgelord anime poses while looking away from her opponent and flipping the blade around just doesn't make her seem any more bad rear end than not doing those things would. Essentially this
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Sep 9, 2022 04:49
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someone else who's read everything more recently than me will do a better job of answering this but I'll attempt to give lame answers as a stopgap.Panfilo posted:-How did that work with the world being lit with two glowing trees? Was there a day/night cycle? Just how big were they? Panfilo posted:-Wouldn't Morgoth pissing on the trees to put them out cause global extinction events? Panfilo posted:How much time had passed between that and Eru getting the pilot light lit on the sun? Panfilo posted:-If elves are so long lived how is it middle earth isn't just swarming with them? Even if we factor all the massive God wars and stuff that went down they're still going to be better off than other races certainly. Panfilo posted:-Why did most of the elves stick around on middle earth after the big bad was defeated? Isn't the island with the glowing tree their homeland? Panfilo posted:-How did Sauron convince the dwarves to take the rings? They seem really skeptical in general, like the discussion between Durin and his dad the king make me think they've dealt with scammers and moochers their whole existence, you mean to tell me Sauron is just going to barge in there like some Kirby vacuum cleaner salesman and convince them to take them?
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Sep 9, 2022 04:50
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Noam Chomsky posted:
Also the Rings, all of them, were Powerful (deliberate capitol "P"). Now, I can't give you a Dungeon and Dragons magic item read-thru on what they specifically did, but they were all Powerful items with no extremely obvious downsides. Granted he was a Hobbit, but Bilbo owned the One Ring itself for several decades thinking it was just a cool trinket that let him turn invisible.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:56
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wrt "Dwarves are very greedy", if you see The Silmarillion like the Elf bible (and is thus transcribed by biased/unreliable Elf narrators) it's possible that they weren't so simplistic but elves just thought so.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:59
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Everyone posted:Also the Rings, all of them, were Powerful (deliberate capitol "P"). Now, I can't give you a Dungeon and Dragons magic item read-thru on what they specifically did, but they were all Powerful items with no extremely obvious downsides. Granted he was a Hobbit, but Bilbo owned the One Ring itself for several decades thinking it was just a cool trinket that let him turn invisible. Yep! This page gives a big rundown of what the rings did. https://lotr.fandom.com/wiki/Rings_of_Power#The_Seven The rings for the Dwarves basically let them find and amass more wealth. I've always looked at them as giving the wearer a measure of ambient control over the forces of the universe, over destiny - so a Dwarf ring would make you luckier (your item find rating go up in video game terms.) Hobbits don't really care about power so the ring just makes them invisible which is just one of the base function of it since it shifts you into some shadow world. It's main function is to dominate the other rings and beings but in order to do that you have to have a will greater than the ring itself and know what it can do. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 05:02
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Kaedric posted:Y'all can imagine whatever you like imagining, but nowhere in the books is the silly anime bullshit you are talking about with power levels and other nonsense. I never said anything about it not being 'possible', because there is literal magic in this world and you can 'a wizard did it' to literally anything you can think of, but the fact of the matter is Tolkien didn't write like that. Having elves walk on snow to describe their ethereal nature does not then lead to them sliding down shields while nocking five arrows at once and killing 10 different dudes in a single shot. Gimli and Legolas killing dozens of orcs, while an extreme feat of heroism and obviously something a normal shmoe would not be capable of, does not have Gimli spinning like a top and beheading 20 orcs at once in a comical fashion. Yes, LotR is fantasy, but it is (relatively) grounded. It’s a fair opinion to have, but the paragraph you quoted just disproves that Tolkien didn’t write like that. I mean, a hammer causing fissures and an Elf dodging such blows must mean he is capable of incredible stunts.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:03
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The Sun and the Moon were released into the world Five Valian Years after the Trees were destroyed. A Valian Year is the equivalent of about 9 years, 212 days, 18 hours by our reckoning. So it was about 46-47 years of darkness. Since we're dealing with Elves and not the other races at this time, it might as well have passed in moments, since 50 years is chump change to an immortal. None of this really matters beyond "the trees died, there was a (relatively) brief period of darkness across the world, then Aule crafted the Moon and Sun as solar lightbulbs. The rising of the Moon and the Sun shortly after heralded the start of the Years of the Sun, which are 365 days long. They wanted the years to be 350 days but the Sun went flying too fast so the years were longer.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:04
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I've always said the more legendary parts of the Silmarillion would best be adapted as an animation, particularly in the style of Castlevania. Trevor vs. Death at the very end of the show shows how you could do Fingolfin vs. Morgoth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0LhJY3XRwg
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Sep 9, 2022 05:05
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Episode 3 time 
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Sep 9, 2022 05:09
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Panfilo posted:So I have a bunch of dumb questions about the series based on the quick prologue at the beginning of the series.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:14
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laughing out loud at the location reveal after all of the so thought out discussion in this thread
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Sep 9, 2022 05:15
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Panfilo posted:-Why did most of the elves stick around on middle earth after the big bad was defeated? Isn't the island with the glowing tree their homeland? Most of them didn't. The vast majority of the Noldor and a large number of Sindar went to/back to Valinor after Morgoth was defeated. Valinor isn't really their homeland. Most of the Elves in Middle-Earth were born in Middle-Earth. The birthplace of the first generation of elves is a lake way off in the east. So far east it goes off any maps of Middle-Earth. The Valar Orome met them there and led some of them west but some stayed and others followed but didn't go all the way to the sea. Then a Maiar called Osse pulled an island all the way from Middle-Earth to Valinor, and a lot of elves still on that. But some elves didn't want to go. They liked middle-earth and chose to stay. Cirdan from the end of LoTR was one of that very first generation of elves and he's been in the middle earth the whole time. So the elves are sort of split into two camps. The "Light Elves" which are elves that went to Valinor and saw the light of the trees and the "Dark Elves" that never saw it. The only elves that I can think of around in any of the stories from the 2nd or 3rd ages that were born in Valinor or have even been to Valinor are Galadriel, Celeborn, and Glorfindel with Celebrimbor as a maybe.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:16
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Xibanya posted:wrt "Dwarves are very greedy", if you see The Silmarillion like the Elf bible (and is thus transcribed by biased/unreliable Elf narrators) it's possible that they weren't so simplistic but elves just thought so. That's fair. I guess there is probably a better word than greedy. They want to create and build and that means digging and finding things, so anything that would allow them to be more industrious would be seen as a major draw. All the goodly races have an innate desire to sing, create, and build like their creator - to your point Elves just don't like Dwarves and will criticize anything they do, which fits the theme I guess since Dwarves were another aberration due to discordant universal creation singing. So, naturally, Elves would be all "you weren't part of the grand plan..." Elves are mean girls.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:17
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Asema posted:laughing out loud at the location reveal after all of the so thought out discussion in this thread Oh is it on now? gently caress I'd better close this thread until it's up.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:18
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rkd_ posted:It’s a fair opinion to have, but the paragraph you quoted just disproves that Tolkien didn’t write like that. I mean, a hammer causing fissures and an Elf dodging such blows must mean he is capable of incredible stunts. It's classic david and goliath stuff. Morgoth being big and slow could not catch the fast elf. "and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth" and then "But the earth was all pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth" to me just reads as many rents and holes in the ground, not literal fissures like the earth splitting in two. That would probably cause more than a stumble.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:21
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Asema posted:laughing out loud at the location reveal after all of the so thought out discussion in this thread I assume you mean Arondir having been captured. Not all elves are possessed of the same skill and power. Gladriel? Around before the two trees died. This guy? I have no idea. He's also a Silvan elf I think. Also, lots of orcs and one elf. Bad odds. Orcs aren't exactly weak either. Some are and some aren't. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 05:26
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Noam Chomsky posted:
a little bit more past that is what I was talking about to be honest
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Sep 9, 2022 05:29
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Captain_Person posted:I've always said the more legendary parts of the Silmarillion would best be adapted as an animation, particularly in the style of Castlevania. Trevor vs. Death at the very end of the show shows how you could do Fingolfin vs. Morgoth But at last the King grew weary, and Morgoth bore down his shield upon him. Thrice he was crushed to his knees, and thrice arose again and bore up his broken shield and stricken helm. But the earth was all pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth; and Morgoth set his left foot upon his neck, and the weight of it was like a fallen hill.... Yet with his last and desperate stroke Fingolfin hewed the foot with Ringil, and the blood gushed forth black and smoking and filled the pits of Grond. Thus died Fingolfin, High King of the Noldor, most proud and valiant of the Elven-kings of old. Then said Morgoth, "That'll show ya, ya little fucker"
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Sep 9, 2022 05:39
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Gah, please show, stop saying "human"
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Sep 9, 2022 05:45
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Arc Hammer posted:Gah, please show, stop saying "human" Halbrand the Human was clearly more on the ball than Galadrial the Super Elf. At least he could read the loving room.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:50
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Noam Chomsky posted:That's fair. wrt what really makes the Dwaves tick, I think their origin is instructive. For those not familiar with the lores, how it goes down is that Eru Illuvatar and the Valar make the music that will form creation, so they know that Arda is gonna have all kinds of stuff in it. Aule gets hype about all that and decides he wants to create his own people so he makes the Dwarves. And Eru is like, Aule you totally made stuff you weren't supposed to behind my back. And Aule is like ack I'm sorry it's just your children seemed so cool so I wanted to make some too  and he thinks he has to kill the dwarves but Eru is like "nah it's cool, you just can't play with them until later"  so the Dwarves wake up after the Elves. I extrapolate that into a general tendency for them to get so wrapped up in cool stuff they're making that it sometimes gets the better of their common sense, rather than their just being greedy and selfish. contrast also, Aule creating Dwarves as a response to Elves ("I made my own cool stuff because I loved the other cool stuff!") vs Morgoth creating orcs as a response to Elves ("I made this stuff because gently caress you")
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Sep 9, 2022 05:54
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this was a good episode I think
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Sep 9, 2022 06:03
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I'm still not sold on this Galadriel plotline. There's being driven and then there's being outright antagonistic.
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Sep 9, 2022 06:08
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Ep 3 good
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Sep 9, 2022 06:11
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Kaedric posted:It's classic david and goliath stuff. Morgoth being big and slow could not catch the fast elf. "and Grond rent a mighty pit in the earth" and then "But the earth was all pitted about him, and he stumbled and fell backward before the feet of Morgoth" to me just reads as many rents and holes in the ground, not literal fissures like the earth splitting in two. That would probably cause more than a stumble. That's fair, although I don't think Tolkien would misuse words like 'fissure'. Everyone posted:Halbrand the Human was clearly more on the ball than Galadrial the Super Elf. At least he could read the loving room. Arc Hammer posted:I'm still not sold on this Galadriel plotline. There's being driven and then there's being outright antagonistic. Doesn't it fit the Elvish pride? Anyway, loved this episode, really cool to see Sauron and get confirmation he's not The Stranger. rkd_ fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 06:12
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Asema posted:a little bit more past that is what I was talking about to be honest Oh ok. I need to watch more. I just checked a bit of it out after seeing your post.
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Sep 9, 2022 06:16
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Arc Hammer posted:I'm still not sold on this Galadriel plotline. There's being driven and then there's being outright antagonistic. Seemed pretty standard noble demands noblesse oblige behavior which is unfortunately pretty realistic. There’s not a lot of textual basis for first age elves being deferential in captivity either.
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Sep 9, 2022 06:17
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Xibanya posted:wrt what really makes the Dwaves tick, I think their origin is instructive. For those not familiar with the lores, how it goes down is that Eru Illuvatar and the Valar make the music that will form creation, so they know that Arda is gonna have all kinds of stuff in it. Aule gets hype about all that and decides he wants to create his own people so he makes the Dwarves. And Eru is like, Aule you totally made stuff you weren't supposed to behind my back. And Aule is like ack I'm sorry it's just your children seemed so cool so I wanted to make some too Exactly right. Aule created out of inspiration and Morgoth created out of a desire to mock. Noam Chomsky fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 06:17
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