(Thread IKs:
Stereotype)
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Car Hater posted:Gonna pick up emtme3's hooting and hollering about ecocommunism and epistemological collapse to say something like I don't think you can avoid privileging one species over another when it's an existential necessity for us to, like, literally murder and eat non-human species in order to survive. Either we privilege ourselves over non-humans by exploiting them as food or alternatively we starve, die, then go extinct. Only voluntary extinction by starvation would be a privilege-free way of life. If you extend your concerns to equally include non-humans then it always counts as murder, injustice, torture, exploitation, domination and oppression when we kill other species for food. If you deny this then you are privileging humans by excluding non-humans from equal concern. Ecocommunism is impossible while inside an evolutionary system that rewards and punishes solely on the basis of it's organisms ability to survive and reproduce (I really, really want emtme3 to prove me wrong, or to indicate a way out of that system).
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Sep 10, 2022 01:17
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i dunno hypothetically it should be possible to feed all humans on plants, except in order to do that you need to ship grains and beans and stuff like that to places that can have grazeland but don't have any good choices for crops. You need a system to guarantee human necessities to all humans and uuuuuuuuh clearly the market has failed to optimize resource distribution in any kind of sane way
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Sep 10, 2022 01:22
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I was picturing something more like a nature preserve run by robots where we're educated but still part of the preserve flying heads but instead of Zardoz it's that other beardy guy pew pew laser eyes for rebellious or overpopulated humans
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Sep 10, 2022 01:25
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Unless posted:content so incredible I come here to gush over it with likeminded ppl Kind of expected Firecanes to be one of those "in 100 years, if we don't do anything" deals
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Sep 10, 2022 01:39
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Corsec posted:I don't think you can avoid privileging one species over another when it's an existential necessity for us to, like, literally murder and eat non-human species in order to survive. Either we privilege ourselves over non-humans by exploiting them as food or alternatively we starve, die, then go extinct. Only voluntary extinction by starvation would be a privilege-free way of life. I dunno I think eating carrots and tomatoes is fine. I’m not exploiting and torturing a potato.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:43
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Car Hater posted:I was picturing something more like a nature preserve run by robots where we're educated but still part of the preserve 
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Sep 10, 2022 01:46
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Car Hater posted:I was picturing something more like a nature preserve run by robots where we're educated but still part of the preserve Anything that grows faster will overwhelm, dominate and replace other members of it's species that grow slower. And anything that dominates others will gain the opportunity to grow faster than them. So, it's an evolutionary feedback. It deterministically tends to produce hunter-gatherers in some other environmental/material circumstances, and capitalists in our circumstances. I don't think you can trust something to self-regulate and completely plan the biosphere as long as it works according to those rules. Anything that was produced by this system can't be trusted to organize it. Benevolence towards the ecological system as a whole is impossible for us because the necessities of thriving within it are, like, the exact opposite of benevolence. If robot-alien-gods decided to prove their ecological benevolence by horrifically murdering all the capitalists and overshooters I would be 100% OK with that even though noone posting in this thread would survive.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:49
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Stereotype posted:I dunno I think eating carrots and tomatoes is fine. I’m not exploiting and torturing a potato. Just because you can't hear it scream when you slice it doesn't mean it doesn't want to live
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Sep 10, 2022 01:56
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Just because you can't hear it scream when you slice it doesn't mean it doesn't want to live little known fact, all tomatoes are clinically depressed
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Sep 10, 2022 01:58
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Cup Runneth Over posted:Just because you can't hear it scream when you slice it doesn't mean it doesn't want to live https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSeUvviGa5E
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Sep 10, 2022 02:00
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP5IWz01ti8 it's just sum rumbles 
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Sep 10, 2022 02:05
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Stereotype posted:I dunno I think eating carrots and tomatoes is fine. I’m not exploiting and torturing a potato. I'd agree that you're not torturing it because it can't feel pain, it doesn't have a central nervous system. That wasn't part of my argument. It objectively is exploitation though because you are consuming it as food. You are appropriating it's energy and resources for your own benefit and preventing it from using those energy and resources for it's own survival and reproduction. Any resources and energy we give to the potato are strictly for our own benefit,. We are the class of organisms that exploit potatos. Like, given the chance to exercise their own evolutionary agency plants don't let themselves be eaten except under highly specific conditions and they actually try really hard to prevent most other organisms from eating them by evolving thorns and poisons and stuff. In EcoCommunist terms, the most exploited working class aren't humans but are the photosynthetic organisms because they have the most energy/resources appropriated from them while proportionately receiving far less in return than they produce.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:05
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No way the tomatoes can afford the medical care required to keep them alive, so it’s honestly a mercy to eat them.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:06
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What is happening in this thread
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Sep 10, 2022 02:08
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Stereotype posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP5IWz01ti8 had to look up which one was oahu  colonization is wild
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Sep 10, 2022 02:11
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silicone thrills posted:What is happening in this thread We're going insane. Again.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:17
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lol I noticed redfin started putting climate risk on every property dad's old place we are selling out in middle of no where TN 
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Sep 10, 2022 02:19
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Hot takes: Humanist (including liberal and classic socialist) ideology is to species what Nazi ideology is to race. Species is no less of a historical and social construct than race is. Taxonomic classification is no justification for granting or witholding political, moral and legal status. This is as true of species as it is for race. Ideas like sapience/sentience serves the same justificatory role within humanist ideology that whiteness plays within white supremacy. The fact that you are convinced that your subjective experience exists is not sufficient scientific proof that it actually exists. The apparent absence orinferiority of subjective experience inside the bodies of non-humans does not prove or justify the belief that the thing does not have interests or those interests do not deserve concern.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:22
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Fruits explicitly evolved to be eaten which is why I only eat bananas
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Sep 10, 2022 02:23
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Vegetables live in oppression, served on our tables each night. This killing of veggies is madness, I say we take up the fight. Salads are only for murderers, coleslaw's a fascist regime. Don't think that they don't have feelings, just cause a radish can't scream. Car Hater posted:I was picturing something more like a nature preserve run by robots where we're educated but still part of the preserve Karl Marx????? Hubbert has issued a correction as of 02:26 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 02:24
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Unless posted:had to look up which one was oahu ya you'd think all the people would live on the biggest island, but nope!
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Sep 10, 2022 02:27
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Corsec posted:Hot takes: exactly, this is why it is absurd to care more about a human eating a raddish instead of a rabbit. just because a human does it, doesn't make it special. or why it is antropocentric to think human agriculture is a unique moral crime, while ants and fire eagles commit similar atrocities.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:31
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TeenageArchipelago posted:Fruits explicitly evolved to be eaten which is why I only eat bananas Plants evolved to provide eatable fruits only under highly specific conditions. It was because the species that eats the fruit provides reproductive advantages (like spreading seeds) that the plant can't get for itself and it's worth paying the energy/resource cost of making edible fruits in order to achieve symbiotic/mutualistic relationships. When species don't provide such advantages then the plants try to prevent the fruits from being eaten, like by making their berries poisonous to everything except the few species of birds who will spread it's seeds. Humans are unlike other species in that we can approriate the energy and resources of other species without creating those symbiotic or mutualistic relationships necessary for ecological stability and that's why ecological collapse is inevitable. Because any human who lives in a mutualistic relationship with non-humans will be treated brutally by the humans who won't, like for example all those hunter-gathers in the Amazon who are being slowly genocided by loggers and miners.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:33
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this thread loses me when you start comparing eating tomatoes to being a nazi anyway, as you were
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Sep 10, 2022 02:36
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Corsec posted:Humans are unlike other species here we go with the anthropocentric thinking where humans are special snowflake species elevated from all others because we do something (that a bunch of other species do too)
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Sep 10, 2022 02:38
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tell me you've never had to deal with a cuckoo hiding their eggs amongst yours without telling me
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Sep 10, 2022 02:40
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how about we compromise and tomatoes get 3/5ths of a vote
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Sep 10, 2022 02:40
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Stereotype posted:ya you'd think all the people would live on the biggest island, but nope! you can see five different newly volcanic mountains, I think it’s hard to get to the place on Mauna Loa you can see them all simultaneously I am very fond of the phrase “dancing on the edge/rim of a volcano”
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Sep 10, 2022 02:44
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Trabisnikof posted:tell me you've never had to deal with a cuckoo hiding their eggs amongst yours without telling me CAW CAW CAW
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Sep 10, 2022 02:46
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Corsec posted:The apparent absence orinferiority of subjective experience inside the bodies of non-humans does not prove or justify the belief that the thing does not have interests or those interests do not deserve concern. this is a very interesting idea that can not be given justice here, you should post about it in d&d
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Sep 10, 2022 02:47
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Unless posted:you can see five different newly volcanic mountains, I think it’s hard to get to the place on Mauna Loa you can see them all simultaneously there's only 4 active volcanos above sea level on big island. Mauna Kea, Mauna Loa, Kilauea, and Hualalai. Kohala is officially extinct. Haleakala on Maui is still active though! And there's a 6th undersea volcano to the southeast of kilauea
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Sep 10, 2022 02:47
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Corsec posted:Anything that grows faster will overwhelm, dominate and replace other members of it's species that grow slower. And anything that dominates others will gain the opportunity to grow faster than them. So, it's an evolutionary feedback. It deterministically tends to produce hunter-gatherers in some other environmental/material circumstances, and capitalists in our circumstances. Baby I know it, I can fantasize all I want, I already got all my entropy/no freedom for systems posting out ages ago. Read dieoff. Hubbert posted:
Ha! Maybe in the good timeline... 
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Sep 10, 2022 02:57
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EVEN THE VOLCANOES ARE GOING EXTINCT 
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Sep 10, 2022 03:00
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endlessmonotony posted:We're going insane. Again. 
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Sep 10, 2022 03:00
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Corsec posted:Anything that grows faster will overwhelm, dominate and replace other members of it's species that grow slower. And anything that dominates others will gain the opportunity to grow faster than them. So, it's an evolutionary feedback. It deterministically tends to produce hunter-gatherers in some other environmental/material circumstances, and capitalists in our circumstances. Your mind is going to be blown when you discover what a carrying capacity is and how real-life species interact with those.
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Sep 10, 2022 03:01
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silicone thrills posted:What is happening in this thread WampaLord posted:*thinking harder than I've ever thought before*
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Sep 10, 2022 03:04
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Anyway yeah I totally agree, plants (and fungi, bacteria, protists whatever etc) are the only real source of value. We're obligate consumers and exploiters. All power to the producers! Overthrow the animal kingdom!
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Sep 10, 2022 03:04
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Stereotype posted:there's only 4 active volcanos above sea level on big island. Mauna Kea, Mauna Loa, Kilauea, and Hualalai. Kohala is officially extinct. I’ve been reading that “ends of the world” geology book about how we can scientifically understand the five biggest ones, so anything since humans evolved I still think of as “newly” edit: 
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Sep 10, 2022 03:08
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it’s a bit nonsensical because this schema needs to extend in all directions to avoid the apparent trap of speciesism as described. so like, the bacteria and poo poo that make a habitat of me have equal interests to the organisms that are keeping me alive in the biosphere.
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Sep 10, 2022 03:17
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Corsec posted:Plants evolved to provide eatable fruits only under highly specific conditions. It was because the species that eats the fruit provides reproductive advantages (like spreading seeds) that the plant can't get for itself and it's worth paying the energy/resource cost of making edible fruits in order to achieve symbiotic/mutualistic relationships. Bananas evolved alongside humans into their present form because their phallic shape makes straight males, like myself, want to put them into our mouths so we plant the seeds to have more bananas
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Sep 10, 2022 03:22
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