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Randarkman posted:Tolkien's foreword about allegory and applicability would like a word with you. My point is not that Sauron is Germany. He isn't and they aren't. Nor is Numenor the US - that's even more emphatically not the case. My point is that Tolkien knew first-hand exactly how decisive a strong third party's intervention could be in war, and I think he applied that knowledge. That's it. The original question was why Numenor kicked Sauron's rear end so hard; the real world analogy is in service of communicating an answer. Or put another way: Numenor has definitely been at the gym, but they also (from Sauron's perspective) came outta nowhere with a steel chair when he was already tired from kicking the elves' asses. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 22:30
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had time to sleep on it, still a good third episode. Think i'm enjoying this more than house of dragons
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Sep 9, 2022 23:13
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I have to admit I like how cute and weird the harfoot culture is. They camouflage thier wagons as little hills! loving adorable.
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Sep 9, 2022 23:47
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Hammerstein posted:I agree a lot with everything you said. You are disproving yourself here. I'm going to need you and anyone agrees to explain how a 5'7" maybe 160 lb. being takes down Morgoth without abilities akin to super powers. You're welcome to use the illustration you find more reasonable as a basis. The whole "Marvel brained" nonsense reveals how some just aren't finding their "serious" fantasy serious enough. It's the same as comic book fans complaining about deviations or just comic books being mainstream now. Stop huffing your own farts.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:00
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One thing I do like about the show is the more classical architecture and armor vs the straight up medieval lord of the rings. Numenor is clearly influenced by Greek and I think specifically Minoan civilization, which is a neat nod to Atlantis. This being thousands of years before lotr it makes sense to evoke a different earlier era of actual history, also one generally seen as grander and more enlightened than the grittier, darker middle ages. This is clearly supposed to be a "better" era, at least at first, then the end of the third age.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:05
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"Thanks for saving me from the sea!" https://twitter.com/myelessar/status/1568329270153433089
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Sep 10, 2022 00:20
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Extremely enjoyable episode. Right off the bat I found myself digging the immersion, in Arondir's predicament and the depiction of the orcs with their sun-shields and sun-blocking clothing and them grumbling about "sun duty". I count that as some properly well-thought-out worldbuilding. And god drat did Númenor deliver visually. I kept thinking, jesus there's got to be like 500 different CGI and physical sets and establishing shots they had to build just for this episode alone. Elendil, as has been said: perfect casting. And I love how thoroughly they established that This Is A Seafaring Nation and that being in the navy is the greatest aspiration for a dude of breeding. The sails might have been silly but they depicted the rough-and-tumble of working on board ship very well. I really dug how they painted the general picture of what it's like to grow up in a family like Elendil's and to be talking like Luke Skywalker about going to the academy and having your Sea Trials and all that. I was like, yes that is precisely what Númenor would have been like! They've done some interesting rejiggering of the power-struggle and who is playing what roles between Queen Regent Míriel and Chancellor Pharazôn and ex-King Tar-Palantír, but I don't think any of it is fundamentally incompatible with the broad thrust of the story as we have known it. Genuinely excited to see where it goes from here. Some nice bits of understated humor, like "Kneel." "Nobody kneels in Númenor." "...Sorry." And a whole bunch of the stuff with the Harfoots remains some good comedy, not to mention continued nods to the canon stuff like Bilbo's birthday speech. As to the identity of The Stranger and Sauron et al, I think it's actually really fun and/or funny (depending on how charitable you want to be to the writers) how deliberately they're drawing out these huge-gape-mouthed-wink head-fakes. Ending an episode with a blurry shot of an Elf-looking dude when earlier in the episode you had the Elves in the camp talking to each other about how the orcs call their leader Adar and maybe that's a name for Sauron tells me 100% that that is not going to be the case. But then you've got all these other wildcards, the Stranger, Halbrand, player to be named later? They're tossing the Might-Be-Sauron card around from character to character like a hot potato with each episode. For my money Halbrand seems like a very fair choice, given his forge connection and just that it seems like a fittingly mysteries-from-the-depths-of-time kind of origin for him to just show up on a raft and nobody knoooowwws who he really is ~spooky fingers~ But by the end of next episode I'm sure that will seem ridiculous!
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Sep 10, 2022 00:32
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Noam Chomsky posted:The whole "Marvel brained" nonsense reveals how some just aren't finding their "serious" fantasy serious enough. Well done to completely miss the point.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:39
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rkd_ posted:Do we know they don't arrive by meteor? Yes, they arrived at the Gray Havens by boat.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:40
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Is Adar mentioned in the Sil at all?
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Sep 10, 2022 00:55
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Randarkman posted:Well done to completely miss the point. Thank you. I practice quite a bit.
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Sep 10, 2022 00:58
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MrMojok posted:Is Adar mentioned in the Sil at all? Nope
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Sep 10, 2022 01:00
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MrMojok posted:Is Adar mentioned in the Sil at all? Probably not by that name. It's elvish for 'father'.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:04
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Asema posted:had time to sleep on it, still a good third episode. Think i'm enjoying this more than house of dragons Just watched it now and I agree with both parts. Good episode, and I almost fall asleep watching HOTD whenever Matt Smith's not on screen.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:13
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Really enjoying Dougie Jones Gandalf
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Sep 10, 2022 01:20
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I think in this episode I made peace with the fact it wasn't going to be a faithful adaptation and just enjoyed it as some well done fan-fiction. Now that I've managed to orient myself to setting and the timeline that they're going for it's a lot less jarring. Also the first two episodes were just plain bad.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:23
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They're going for the m night shyamalan, season finale will reveal Morfydd-Galadriel has been Sauron this whole time as Cate Blanchett wanders in with a "What'd I miss?"
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Sep 10, 2022 01:31
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Moltke posted:I'm still not sure. Chain fight was cool but i don't know if i'm digging the characterization of Galadriel (the actress is doing a good job) as an angsty teenager rather than a conflicted adult. She poo poo the bed in Numenor which doesn't jive at all with my impression of elves (from this show or PJ), let alone an elf like Galadriel. I don't know if the Stranger is Gandalf (or proto-Gandalf/etc). Maybe, but Halbrand as Sauron makes no sense to me. Halbrand seems like a character who is "street smart" and it's hard to imagine Sauron being street smart. Halbrand was basically begging that guy at the forge to give him a chance. I can't imagine Sauron begging like that. Halbrand seems like somebody who was in a leadership position in the Southlands (maybe as part of a line of kings). But his goal is pretty clear to me. He wants to leave the orcs, line of kings, all that BS behind and start a different life on Numenor. And not even as a prince or noble. Just as a regular dude who knows how to be a smith. Moltke posted:Also the hobbit stuff was all pretty weird. The transition between the reverent memorial for all of the people who died, and "your child talked to a stranger, the only appropriate punishment is for the whole family to die" gave me whiplash. I haven't gotten all the through the episode yet so I could be talking out of my rear end. But think about the Harfoots as Harfoots instead of Hobbits. Compared to pretty much every other intelligent race on ME, the Harfoots are smaller, weaker, slower, less technologically advanced, less numerous, less everything. The best and really only defense they have is hiding and hiding so well that other races don't even think they exist. Nori outing them to a Stranger puts them in peril. I mean, forget migration and Darwin. Look at our own history on this planet Earth. What has been the result when a more technologically advanced (or at least better armed) encounters a group that's less advanced/powerful? The less advanced bunch loses control of their destiny. The Harfoots don't want to be slaves/pets/food/toys for some other group.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:31
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I don't know any of the lore but this hobbit storyline has been a drag so far.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:38
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I don't know if the show is going for much of a mystery box gimmick. Some things haven't been revealed but I don't think those things are necessarily some great secret or there's going to be a twist in the reveal. They'll end up being what they seem like they're going to be. I think the Stranger is probably going to be Gandalf I think Adan is probably Sauron I think Halbrand is going to become a leader in the Southlands and at some point much later in the show get corrupted by one of the nine rings.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:41
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alcaras posted:Yes, they arrived at the Gray Havens by boat. In later writings, Tolkien altered the story and the Blue Wizards did not arrive with Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Instead, they were sent during the Second Age. Unless there is a different source that also states they arrived by boat during the Second Age?
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Sep 10, 2022 01:45
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rkd_ posted:In later writings, Tolkien altered the story and the Blue Wizards did not arrive with Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast. Instead, they were sent during the Second Age. Unless there is a different source that also states they arrived by boat during the Second Age? Travel by meteor seems unlikely -- not something we've seen in any source material. The Stranger remains a ??? to me.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:47
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I enjoyed that episode thoroughly and thought all the long shots of Numenor were awesome. Just being part of that setting with the excellent score/sound ticked a lot of boxes. There are still things about the story telling (too much hobbit stuff) and characterization (Galadriel looking young but being super wise is cooler and more unique personality than the cliche passionate and fiery young warrior) , but it's bursting with enough other cool fantasy poo poo that I leave excited to see what they do next. And like I said after episode 2, as a charlatan Tolkein fan, it really gets me excited to read more about the lore online and listen to the Simarillion audiobook .
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Sep 10, 2022 01:48
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alcaras posted:Travel by meteor seems unlikely -- not something we've seen in any source material. The Stranger remains a ??? to me. I think it makes sense if youre trying to articulate visually that the maiar are essentially gods sent into the world in a new form. And a lot more interesting than just showing up on a boat in the grey havens.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:51
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I need this in the show https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTR5kxScq/
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Sep 10, 2022 01:58
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I don't know if the show is going for much of a mystery box gimmick. Some things haven't been revealed but I don't think those things are necessarily some great secret or there's going to be a twist in the reveal. They'll end up being what they seem like they're going to be. I'm 100% in agreement with all of these. The second they said Halbrand was a king in exile I was like "this dude is gonna be a Ringwraith, I KNOW it!
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Sep 10, 2022 02:00
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Sheng-Ji Yang posted:I think it makes sense if youre trying to articulate visually that the maiar are essentially gods sent into the world in a new form. And a lot more interesting than just showing up on a boat in the grey havens. Yeah i have no issues with the meteor arrival, you need to impress his otherworldly nature to viewers
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Sep 10, 2022 02:00
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2nd level spells posted:I have to admit I like how cute and weird the harfoot culture is. They camouflage thier wagons as little hills! loving adorable. Hell yeah, it’s awesome. I get the sense that a lot of it is practical effects as opposed to the heavy use of cgi in all the other settings, which gives it a nice grounded look. I loved those carved faces in the cliffside as the ship entered Númenor. I don’t know if that’s from Tolkien’s conception of the island but it’s just the kind of arrogant thing those kings would do.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:20
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e X posted:The scene between Galadriel and the Queen Regent is terrible, with them sniping at each other. Both of those people are supposed to be seasoned politicians and leader of their respective people, but they talk like modern, everyday people. To draw the obvious comparison, GoT actually did that a lot better, with showing how there a difference between people speaking in their official roles at court and in private with close friends or family. Galadriel strikes the same tone with everybody, be it her soldiers, old friends or random humans she meets at sea. But the dialogs are bad in general. The scene in the archives is cringe worthy. "Sauron is creating a country ... OF EVIL!!" What was, will be! What is, will be no more! Now is the season of evil. edit: ya i really like how paddy considine consciously does a "king's voice" when he needs to on the dragon show
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Sep 10, 2022 02:28
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Was no one else shouting at the screen "Look out Halbrand! That's Rapeface Cossutius!"? Also Halbrand sounds suspiciously like Aragorn's bestie Halbarad, I guess he's going to become friends with Anarion.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:29
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Man, those guild members were mean! Thank you Jeff Bezos for warning me of the evils of trade-unionism.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:38
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i made it nine minutes into what looked and felt like a video game intro cutscene, does it get better?
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Sep 10, 2022 02:42
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Wheeee posted:i made it nine minutes into what looked and felt like a video game intro cutscene, does it get better? yes? most of the thread likes the show, moving between "eh its fine" to "good but withholding judgement" to "good"
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Sep 10, 2022 02:45
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BWV posted:I enjoyed that episode thoroughly and thought all the long shots of Numenor were awesome. Just being part of that setting with the excellent score/sound ticked a lot of boxes. There are still things about the story telling (too much hobbit stuff) and characterization (Galadriel looking young but being super wise is cooler and more unique personality than the cliche passionate and fiery young warrior) , but it's bursting with enough other cool fantasy poo poo that I leave excited to see what they do next. And like I said after episode 2, as a charlatan Tolkein fan, it really gets me excited to read more about the lore online and listen to the Simarillion audiobook . Yeah the music in the Númenor establishing shots was outstanding. I love the thrumming drums with the vaguely Middle Eastern motif; it's majestic and ponderous and unstuck-in-time. If someone had explicitly been tasked with coming up with a theme for Atlantis I doubt I can picture them doing much better. covidstomper58 posted:Also Halbrand sounds suspiciously like Aragorn's bestie Halbarad, I guess he's going to become friends with Anarion. I hope not; if the writers are paying close enough attention to the languages to be coming up with plausibly grounded OC names (and to make a whole-rear end plot point out of the multiple possible translations of Elendil) they wouldn't be making a mistake like conflating a Sindarin name with what sounds like a name from the early Edain or the people of Dale/Rhovanion/proto-Rohirrim.  Data Graham fucked around with this message at 03:02 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 02:50
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I don't know if the show is going for much of a mystery box gimmick. Some things haven't been revealed but I don't think those things are necessarily some great secret or there's going to be a twist in the reveal. They'll end up being what they seem like they're going to be. I will say that regardless of who stranger/halbard/adar end up being, the show is definitely setting up mysteries around the "real" identity of all 3. The way it's going so far is to leave really obvious callbacks pointing one way or the other episode-by-episode, which ends up feeling cheap to me. There are definite allusions made to the PJ movies as well, which makes me think that the writers don't believe the show can stand on its own, but only time will tell.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:55
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Enjoyed that episode. Numenor is excellent, just how I imagined it, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that plotline plays out. Elendil is great as well. The chain fight was cool, and the elves having such an internal moral struggle over cutting down a single tree is one of those things that make me think the writers get Tolkien, regardless of any changes made in adaptation. In terms of speculation, I'm thinking Harbrand is going to be a Nazgul, and leaning more towards the Stranger being Gandalf (or another Istar). And you know, I'd be okay with that, even if it isn't what's in the books.
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Sep 10, 2022 02:57
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Some of the casting choices have been pretty suspect thus far but they absolutely nailed Elendil. Isildur as a teenager is a bit iffy but whatever.
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Sep 10, 2022 03:00
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Some of the casting choices have been pretty suspect thus far but they absolutely nailed Elendil. I thought it was fine. He's supposed to be young, but I'm not sure if he's supposed to be a teenager. The Numenoreans live for hundreds of years (that's why they kept calling whatshisface a "low man") so I don't think it's a big deal that the actor isn't a teenager.
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Sep 10, 2022 03:15
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He reminds me of squire Arthur from Excalibur.
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Sep 10, 2022 03:18
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Wheeee posted:i made it nine minutes into what looked and felt like a video game intro cutscene, does it get better?
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Sep 10, 2022 03:25
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