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Fordola and Yotsuyu is one of the few cases of the game tactfully not saying something, and I think it's worse for it these are two different women, yes, but they are the same person at different stages of being subsumed by the empire. Yotsuyu is Fordola's future. Fordola still has some pride in herself, some hope for better, which makes the hatred for her conquered countrymen holding her back almost plaintive. surely, if she hurts them just a little more, she won't have to hurt them anymore, right? give her a couple of years to let that hope die, earning favor and power from the boss along the way. one day she is going to wake up in her fine clothes, in her fine quarters, with fine soldiers at her command, and realize that despite everything she's achieved she's just as much a slave as when she was a recruit. the garleans still whisper about how she doesn't deserve her position. the ala mighans still whisper about how she's a traitor. and the only thing that makes her feel better is to take it out on them. it is not that the empire picks bad people to be its enforcers. empire -makes- its enforcers into bad people. it's just that Fordola's still pretty early on in the process, and Yotsuyu is the finished product.
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Sep 10, 2022 15:57
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Cythereal posted:For me, it's exacerbated by the fact that this is the second time it's happened, and it's even happened following roughly the same sequence of events: That's kinda what invading, oppressive Empires do, and if you're telling a story about rebellion, and about how those being oppressed have to work together to overthrow said Empire (which is clearly being signposted by the point the LP is at), how is this in any way a bad story beat? quote:2. Especially brutal and ruthless woman collaborator gets some scenes of being a horrible threat. Fordola and Yotsuyu are both women who are working for the Garlean Empire. That's about the only parallel between them. Fordola is a disciplined soldier working for the imperialists who conquered her homeland, and Yotsuyu is a near-psychotic sadist who wants to make all of her fellow Domans suffer for (as far as the LP has gone) unclear reasons. That's a hell of a stretch. It'd be like saying Gaius Baelsar and Zenos are the same because they're both Garlean commanders. quote:3. Scions inspire rebellion. Saying Zenos 'put the boot' to Fordola is bullshit. Yeah, he outranks her, and is clearly the primary antagonist of the story, so he's going to be the one we're fighting most directly. His behavior towards Fordola was very different from what he did to Yotsuyu. Would it have been better, do you think, if they'd had male characters in the roles? It would have definitely changed Zenos' interaction with the Doman viceroy, since I can't see him threatening a male viceroy that way, so that would have removed some creepy from his characterization. YMMV on whether that makes for a more interesting story or not. And who would you say should have been at Rhalgr's Reach if not Y'shtola? Papalymo's dead, and she's the only other Scion who's an acknowledged magical powerhouse. Thancred trying and failing to block him would not have been surprising at all, since Thancred's a rogue, not a tank, and it wouldn't have established that Zenos can take on high-class magic head-to-head and win. And he does it, with a plain sword - no magitek - as a Garlean, who can't use Aether. Thancred, also unable to use Aether after his dip in the Lifestream, would be wholly unsuitable for selling Zenos' threat level. Thancred could have taken the role that Lyse played there, of being the Scion who went from kicking Garlean rear end to being shut down cold when Zenos shows up. That would be worse, IMO, since that would shove her out of the spotlight in a pivotal moment for the Ala Mhigan Resistance story, and she's clearly being set up for a story arc about her becoming a leader. Doing that would massively undermine that story arc. I just went back and rewatched the Rhalgr's Reach cutscene, and it's actually a pretty slick sorting algorithm of badassery going on there. Fordola is cutting down Resistance soldiers, and then Meffrid challenges her - someone we know, and is reasonably skilled. And she dismantles him. Then Lyse goes in after Fordola, and while Fordola doesn't go down, she's clearly on the back foot and Lyse is a better fighter. Then Zenos comes in and Lyse is established to be good enough to not die instantly against him, but nowhere near good enough to beat him. Y'shtola, who's a powerful Conjurer, steps in to save Lyse, and Zenos demonstrates that whatever he's got powering him up, he can deal with magic straight up, even as a Garlean. Yugiri's actions make sense in context - we saw all the setup we could need here, just a couple updates ago. Hien, the leader she serves (which as a Ninja is kinda a Big Deal) is going to hand himself over for execution because the Doman people have lost the willingness to fight. A man who didn't throw back her 'disloyalty' in her face when she admitted to still holding loyalty to her birthplace. She's presented with a reasonable chance to take out Zenos, to save Hien, and to not get anyone but herself killed in the process - because she knows how Hien values Doman lives. So she goes for it - and in the process inspires the Domans, giving them enough hope to take up arms again and restart the rebellion. There wasn't another character in the story who could play that role - while we know Gosetsu now, he's neither a reasonable choice for trying to kill Zenos, nor is he someone we've had a long enough relationship with that the WoL would be willing to go along. Doing it this way also let them fit in some good character development for Yugiri (and Hien too, even offscreen), with Gosetsu's conversation with her about the value of her own life afterwards. The Y'shtola/Yugiri parallel isn't even that close - Y'shtola was badly injured, Yugiri was up and about shortly after with some battlefield healing. Yeah, you could say that she would have been dead if Alisae, Gosetsu and the Doman villagers hadn't shown up, but that would be missing the point. The theme they're hitting here is how dependent the good guys are on each other if they want to have a chance against the Empire. Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:these are two different women, yes, but they are the same person at different stages of being subsumed by the empire. Yotsuyu is Fordola's future. Fordola still has some pride in herself, some hope for better, which makes the hatred for her conquered countrymen holding her back almost plaintive. Wow, that's certainly a take. And it's one that is pretty drat trivially refutable, if we were at a later point in the story.
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Sep 10, 2022 16:10
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Cythereal posted:I still think it's one of a few points where Stormblood's storytelling is too heavy-handed for its own good, and in particular keeps violating what is to me an important guideline about good storytelling: we the players see far more of Zenos than the WoL does. FF8 occasionally just tosses you into the perspective of a completely different person in another place so you can see things that they SeeDs don't, and while I have issues with the story at times I don't think it's bad storytelling to shift things to Laguna sometimes. FF15 (sans DLC) tries to never leave Noctis's side and so consequently there's a ton of obvious points where the game is telling you to refer to extra material and the game suffers for it. The main thing about those games though is that your main character is far more defined. FF14 is a game about a tabula rasa with the illusion of choice. Which leads to situations where we do things like, uh, attack Zenos. Instead of Yotsuyu, who is also dangerous/crazy and far less interested in self-defense, and Zenos possibly wouldn't even bother to defend her. But we players only know these things because of "Meanwhile..." cutscenes. And Zenos basically lives in "Meanwhile..." cutscenes. I don't think it's bad storytelling per se, it's just that Zenos is too much tell rather than show. You know more what Gaius is about even with relatively little camera time because everywhere you go there's his vision put into action. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 17:42
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Kenlon posted:And who would you say should have been at Rhalgr's Reach if not Y'shtola? Papalymo's dead, and she's the only other Scion who's an acknowledged magical powerhouse. Thancred trying and failing to block him would not have been surprising at all, since Thancred's a rogue, not a tank, and it wouldn't have established that Zenos can take on high-class magic head-to-head and win. And he does it, with a plain sword - no magitek - as a Garlean, who can't use Aether. Thancred, also unable to use Aether after his dip in the Lifestream, would be wholly unsuitable for selling Zenos' threat level. Another point: Y'shtola being really good at shielding has been established by this point of the story. We've seen her shield through like 20 soldiers being blasted by Illberd's sword wave technique that's also launching Raubahn half way across the room. We've seen her shield through a volley of another WoL equivalent's arrows at the start of the WoD min-arc. She has established her power in this field cinematically. The point of her being there to be cut down is to help establish the power dynamic. She's supposed to be the most powerful character, defensively, that we've seen on our team. The moment of Zenos cutting her down only works because we've already established that Y'shtola is hella powerful already, in addition to being a character that a lot of people have come to like. Saying that Y'shtola should have been replaced by another character is actually a criticism that she should be downgraded in power. In fact, this is a common criticism of another woman character in the story (Krile) who doesn't get a lot to do besides information gathering, backline support, and being sassy throughout Heavensward, even though she's actually extremely useful in terms of actual problem solving. It's, in fact, a criticism some people have of early pre-HW Thancred who, they feel comes to steal in glory because it appears that he doesn't struggle a lot (even if that's a problem mostly of them skipping ARR lines where he confesses a lot of his struggles). A character struggling or getting injured does not suddenly mean they are being slighted by the author, it's actually often the opposite. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 17:51 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 17:42
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Craptacular! posted:FF8 occasionally just tosses you into the perspective of a completely different person in another place so you can see things that they SeeDs don't, and while I have issues with the story at times I don't think it's bad storytelling to shift things to Laguna sometimes. FF15 (sans DLC) tries to never leave Noctis's side and so consequently there's a ton of obvious points where the game is telling you to refer to extra material and the game suffers for it. I think I agree that this is my main issue with Zenos, personally. There’s an additional two reasons I can’t get into right now but I think the reliance on Meanwhile… is a big part. I used to grumble about it to my FC every time it came up even.
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Sep 10, 2022 18:06
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Cythereal posted:I'm in the camp that hates unwinnable boss fights, and to have the same guy do it twice rubs me raw. Unwinnable boss fights are some of my favorite story points of FF4, but at it's best Golbez gives you about one turn to play your most damaging hand before saying "Not good enough!" and disabling the whole party at once. The Zenos fight has a few issues: It takes about five minutes played normally, so it's not short. He has a "whoops I must be going" move that immediately wins the battle. And if you die before the predetermined point in the battle you have to start over. I'm also not nuts that they borrowed Nael's weird theme for his second health bar. The only comparison for the Zenos fight is Beatrix from FF9, and a lot of people misattribute the unwinnable fight thing to her because of how aggravating it is to have these same win conditions multiple times. I think with Zenos they're trying to do something like FF4's sequel, where you have five unwinnable fights against a completely invincible person, but when Palom and his friend actually learn The Power Of Friendship and use it to actually score some hits you feel brief satisfaction before you see them lose yet again . However, breaking swords and chipping armor isn't really that impressive, since Zenos is supposedly more than the sum of his manmade equipment. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 18:24 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 18:18
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hopeandjoy posted:I think I agree that this is my main issue with Zenos, personally. There’s an additional two reasons I can’t get into right now but I think the reliance on Meanwhile… is a big part. I used to grumble about it to my FC every time it came up even. The ATE's in FF9 were some of the best bits and I'm glad 14 takes from this legacy
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Sep 10, 2022 18:21
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hopeandjoy posted:I think I agree that this is my main issue with Zenos, personally. There’s an additional two reasons I can’t get into right now but I think the reliance on Meanwhile… is a big part. I used to grumble about it to my FC every time it came up even. Part of the issue, that we're starting to see here, is that Zenos' character needs to depict boredom in some capacity; it is a core aspect of his character. But if the idea is that the WoL's fights excite him, then moments we are encountering him as the WoL cannot establish those moments very well. There needs to be a contrast for his character to work. My take on criticism of Zenos is that they chose a character that is incredibly difficult to depict well in this medium, for a multitude of reasons. One of the biggest ones is, ultimately, perspective, which branches out into other criticisms such as the Meanwhile scenes, and the ways unwinnable fights for the purposes of establishing his power (and the WoL's rise to counter it). It's not necessarily an issue with storytelling in terms of the writer/character archetype, but rather the inability to use adjacent languages such as visual or gameplay to help bolster it properly. AncientSpark fucked around with this message at 18:56 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 18:52
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Even all the way back in ARR, FFXIV's narrative approach has always relied on "meanwhile..." scenes. The things that the WoL and the Scions personally know and the things that the player knows have been broadly different for quite some time. I don't really mind it! For the most part, the actual interactions between the various characters when they're actually in the same scene work just fine. Any tiny gripe I would have is Very Spoilers, and it's a tiny one at that. As someone that has a lot of feelings about my WoL's feelings, I tend to compartmentalize them away from my own reactions to the story. Also I am one of those dirty female Zenos likers that kind of enjoys the stalkery/obsessive vibe he gives off. Not everyone's gonna dig that, and that's a fair criticism. Zenos is very divisive and that's one of the reasons. But that's my reaction, and it's just as legitimate! He's a bad dude doing bad things but if Yotsuyu were some theoretical male version of the same character I can see him being just as violent with him in that scene, I think, and that's definitely one of the reasons I find him hideously interesting. FeatherFloat fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 22:11
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Craptacular! posted:FF14 is a game about a tabula rasa with the illusion of choice. This is becoming less and less true over each expansion we've seen so far, though. It's one of the great strengths of the game, IMO.
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Sep 10, 2022 22:40
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As part of my running list of Structural/Literary Design Things That Will Merit Discussion At The End Of The Story, I do feel like Stormblood has ticked upward noticeably when it comes to creating a divergence between Player and Character knowledge via things like "Meanwhile Scenes" compared to ARR and HW.
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Sep 10, 2022 23:53
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That may not have been for lack of intent on HW's part - one thing we know from past Q&A is that the Heavens' Ward, Thordan, and Igeyorhm were all specifically meant to have more story scene presence than they had time to implement, which could possibly have taken the form of a lot more "Meanwhile..." cutscenes if they didn't involve one-on-one time with the WoL.
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Sep 11, 2022 00:15
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Sanguinia posted:As part of my running list of Structural/Literary Design Things That Will Merit Discussion At The End Of The Story, I do feel like Stormblood has ticked upward noticeably when it comes to creating a divergence between Player and Character knowledge via things like "Meanwhile Scenes" compared to ARR and HW. This kind of makes sense in a way. ARR was very much an MMO story, centered around the PC. The other characters don't really do very much while you aren't around aside from setting up the next setpiece. Then in Heavensward things take a turn, and you have a significant portion of the story being about Alphinaud and Estinien and Ysayle. And while the WoL is present for those events, they really aren't a central player in them. StB has definitely gone even further and made Lyse essentially the co-protagonist with the WoL for the expansion. Simply put the story has slowly opened up from being almost solely about the WoL, to the WoL being the primary character in a larger story, which is a very different type of storytelling. And part of this process is that the WoL gets many more definitive personality traits because they aren't a blank slate anymore, they're a character in a story that has to have their own reactions.
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Sep 11, 2022 00:33
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What makes Zenos interesting is that the main villains we've met before this (and yeah that's a fuzzy category but I'm taking this to mean Gaius, Lahabrea, Thordan, Nidhogg, maybe those two other Ascians that died or whatever) have some belief that what they are doing is right or justified, or will lead to a greater good. Zenos doesn't care. He's specifically a contrast against Gaius who was very much a believer in the Garlean Empire and its mission of stopping eikons from being summoned through sheer brute oppressive force. Zenos is not really interested in that. He is not interested in helping manage an Empire. He is in it for personal gratification, and presumably years of having his every whim granted have led him to a desire for Violent Conflict that can, because he's gotten so good at it, only truly be met by someone like the WoL. You're the first person to even *begin* to threaten him and he likes it. ISTR being maybe a little annoyed that we had to lose to him again but looking back it's a strong dramatic choice, there was a real sense of "How am I going to beat this guy?" And that creates a tension where unlike most other times in ARR, you want to avoid confronting the Big Bad until you're in a better position.
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Sep 11, 2022 01:43
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FeatherFloat posted:Even all the way back in ARR, FFXIV's narrative approach has always relied on "meanwhile..." scenes. The things that the WoL and the Scions personally know and the things that the player knows have been broadly different for quite some time. I don't really mind it! For the most part, the actual interactions between the various characters when they're actually in the same scene work just fine. Any tiny gripe I would have is Very Spoilers, and it's a tiny one at that. As someone that has a lot of feelings about my WoL's feelings, I tend to compartmentalize them away from my own reactions to the story. Honestly a majority of the Zenos-likers I know of (and I'm in an entire server of them so I know quite a few) are women. The intensity and obsession are part of the appeal of him as a character to put in a jar and study. And we have seen how he handles male failures. The fact that Yotsuyu gets to live is probably only because she gave him a Really Cool Sword and ultimately gave him what he wanted through her failures rather than being more useful turned into an example corpse for an audience.
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Sep 11, 2022 02:03
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also he's hot
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Sep 11, 2022 02:12
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Runa posted:also he's hot Well yes he is a final fantasy this goes without saying
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Sep 11, 2022 02:17
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Like Clockwork posted:Well yes he is a final fantasy this goes without saying 
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Sep 11, 2022 02:49
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Everyone's hot in Final Fantasy! That said I kinda find him a little ugly in his hotness. Yes yes he's huge and his hair is glorious but his features come together in an interesting way rather than a hot way. Tho honestly I guess you could say that about Estinien, the current certified Square Enix approved FFXIV thirst trap? He, too, has interesting features and Elezen proportions. I think a lot of the hot-enough-I-suppose characters in this game get even further glow-ups via all the fan art.
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Sep 11, 2022 02:57
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Zenos is catnip to the "I can fix him" types.
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Sep 11, 2022 02:59
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Runa posted:also he's hot
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Sep 11, 2022 03:01
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FeatherFloat posted:Everyone's hot in Final Fantasy! Honestly this makes them more appealing to me rather than less. Instead of being generically pretty they've got a sort of scrungliness to them that sets them apart from the perfect standard anime hotguy type and gives them a little more character, and I feel like they do a pretty good job of carrying that energy forward in future character designs.
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Sep 11, 2022 03:06
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Key to FFXIV’s appeal is there are multiple approved thirst traps at any given time. There’s almost always one or more “I can fix them” types as well as more wholesome folks.
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Sep 11, 2022 03:13
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Best description of Zenos' looks I've ever seen was 'evil shampoo commercial.'
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Sep 11, 2022 03:16
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As someone not attracted to Zenos, my favorite thing about his looks is how effectively it conveys how utterly he's bored by almost everything around him. (To be fair, it only works that well because of stellar VA work.)
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Sep 11, 2022 03:18
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Ran Rannerson posted:Honestly this makes them more appealing to me rather than less. Instead of being generically pretty they've got a sort of scrungliness to them that sets them apart from the perfect standard anime hotguy type and gives them a little more character, and I feel like they do a pretty good job of carrying that energy forward in future character designs. The scrungle is vital to how Estinien and Zenos are hot, if they weren't they'd be a lot less interesting to look at (and, as an artist, more boring to draw—I love drawing Zenos's nose). Zenos crawling right out of an Amano drawing in general does a lot of heavy lifting in that department certainly, but his not being a typical jrpg prettyboy once you dial into the details is what turns it up to 11.
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Sep 11, 2022 03:23
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It's not like his stalker obsession with you is ever presented as a good thing. He's the bad guy.
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Sep 11, 2022 03:49
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FeatherFloat posted:Everyone's hot in Final Fantasy! Everyone know Aymeric is the REAL Elezen thirst trap. Artoirel's not bad either, but he is my adopted brother now so We Musn't. Of course, my gentle kouhai heart will always belong to Ysayle-senpai  (Note that I'm speaking for myself, not Kheris. That's not to say she doesn't have ANY crushes...)
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Sep 11, 2022 04:53
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I see I am out of step with most of the thread here because when Yugiri said, "Let's assassinate Zenos," I was all gun-ho about it and was a little baffled when the others protested. Yeah yeah I understand the potential downsides everyone, but com'on! The killing (or even wounding) of Zenos, the Imperial Crown Prince, would be a huge win. Not just a propaganda win, but the removal of an enormous threat. A man who can single-handedly lay waste to all challengers. A man who can defeat the Warrior of Light! There may have been a tad bit of bruised ego factoring into this as well. So when I went to Yugiri I clicked option 1: You mean we will kill him.
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Sep 11, 2022 04:59
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SirSamVimes posted:Zenos is catnip to the "I can fix him" types. some of that, but more "i could fix him but he's way funnier like this", i suspect. Valentin fucked around with this message at 05:28 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 05:21
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 I think this is what you're looking for
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Sep 11, 2022 05:32
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OhFunny posted:I see I am out of step with most of the thread here because when Yugiri said, "Let's assassinate Zenos," I was all gun-ho about it and was a little baffled when the others protested.
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Sep 11, 2022 05:38
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Zenos only works because the VA slams the dial up to 11 on literally every single thing that he says. Anything less over the top would make him seem ridiculous, but he goes so hard on everything that it totally sells the evil shampoo commercial look.
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Sep 11, 2022 05:55
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Khizan posted:Zenos only works because the VA slams the dial up to 11 on literally every single thing that he says. Anything less over the top would make him seem ridiculous, but he goes so hard on everything that it totally sells the evil shampoo commercial look. I wasn't sure I felt about him until zenos 2 but the "moments between seconds" monologue sold me on the character.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:07
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When it comes to auto-lose battles I think that they've mastered it in the rework of ARR, namely, you cannot beat Lahabrea. He sets up a mechanic you know (I'm charging a wipe, you have to kill the things I'm charging with) and there is, literally, no way to stop the bar from hitting full and DPSing down the adds before it goes off and kills you. You, canonically, mechanically, lose. It's no "Well if they'd let us keep going I'd have won because-" No. You failed the mechanic, not only did you fail the mechanic you had no ability to ever succeed at it, you aren't strong enough.
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Sep 11, 2022 07:57
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Fun fact, even though you dying in the reworked Lahabrea fight is scripted, it still mechanically counts as a death. When I played it on my alt a few month back, the help box explaining "KOs" popped up, since I hadn't actually died before that. You get knocked down to 0 HP and actually die, but the game just revives you and the fight continues.
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Sep 11, 2022 08:24
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I think my reasoning for the WoL was, she wasn't gonna let Yugiri do this alone. Succeed or fail, live or die, we weren't gonna just let whatever happened happen, we were gonna help. It's one of those points in the story where there doesn't actually seem to be a way forward. The Domans have apparently been cowed into submission and Hien won't lead a revolt without them. Yugiri's plan is basically the only one anyone has. It's a very bad plan, but sometimes they just have to take you to the brink.
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Sep 11, 2022 08:31
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Khizan posted:Zenos only works because the VA slams the dial up to 11 on literally every single thing that he says. Anything less over the top would make him seem ridiculous, but he goes so hard on everything that it totally sells the evil shampoo commercial look. His voice actor is on Cameo and people (goons) have been getting him to do some pretty magical stuff in his Zenos voice.
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Sep 11, 2022 09:29
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Agreeing with others that Zeno's voice acting very successfully carries a lot. Honestly, the post-ARR voice acting in general is fantastic. I bear no grudge against people who play in Japanese, but so much of the English VA work is so killer. I didn't care much for Zenos for good while, but having come around to being a, eh, Zenos Liker (let's not go too far with this), it's really fun going back to these early moments and spotting seeds of stuff that I absolutely didn't notice at the time. I was honestly just pretty grumpy about Othard throughout Ruby Sea and Yanxia, as someone who very, very much wanted a whole lot of Ala Mhigo and was getting none of it, which probably played a part in it, but I now that I can see it through clearer eyes (or, well, YOUR clearer eyes), it's great seeing all these things I had missed. Onmi posted:When it comes to auto-lose battles I think that they've mastered it in the rework of ARR, namely, you cannot beat Lahabrea. He sets up a mechanic you know (I'm charging a wipe, you have to kill the things I'm charging with) and there is, literally, no way to stop the bar from hitting full and DPSing down the adds before it goes off and kills you. You, canonically, mechanically, lose. It's no "Well if they'd let us keep going I'd have won because-" No. You failed the mechanic, not only did you fail the mechanic you had no ability to ever succeed at it, you aren't strong enough. This works much better I think. I hated every fight which ended up just being "run the timer until you lose anyways." Having a mechanic you can't beat is way more visceral and feels better - and amplifies the villain, I think! - compared to winning, and then getting "actually you lose anyways, heh." The latter always feels like the dude is a chump and the game isn't letting me win like a bitter and lovely DM, whereas the former expressed you being in over your head.
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Sep 11, 2022 13:04
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What helps is that round 2 also isn’t a complete, unmitigated disaster like the first time you crossed blades with him. Rhalgr’s Reach was him breaking the back and spirit of the Ala Mhigan resistance by attacking them where they felt safest, and ended with numerous allies either dead or effectively knocked out of the fight from their wounds. Here, while you still don’t win against him, you also don’t lose anyone else to him, either… and you get the first definitive signs of resparking the rebellious flame in the people, after everything up to this point was showing how badly they had been pushed to the breaking point. I’m kind of reminded of MGS3, where in cutscenes, Naked Snake starts off getting his rear end handed to him by the Boss in hand to hand combat, but does noticeably better against her every subsequent time they fight, until their final cutscene fight, where he basically fights her to a draw before they get cut off.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:13
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