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Kerrzhe posted:bring back Chloromancer from RIFT. if you know you know. I do not know and can't decide between chlorine gas war crime attacks or chlorophyll plant attacks
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Sep 11, 2022 21:48
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Hellioning posted:I mean. It's categorically unnecessary to DPS to perform the pivotal role that healers provide (healing) except in hard content, but hard content is not where the crux of the issue lies. Again, I think people are overestimating the average skill of healer players and their overall interest in DPS minmaxing, because SE wouldn't have carved away the far more complex DPS kits of Heavensward if the majority of players found it enjoyable or compelling.
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Sep 11, 2022 21:51
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Round 2 of trying to clear EX4 ended tonight after after 70 minutes without actually entering the instance, either constantly refreshing PF trying to find a practice group that we could fit into or sitting in a group that never filled. Getting to the trial a few weeks late because my gear was behind and finding it a deserted wasteland now most people have moved onto savages is very demoralising, it does feel bad how the content in this game is either braindead easy or requires a static not to be at the whims of parties that can implode at a moments notice or just not form at all
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Sep 11, 2022 21:55
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hazardousmouse posted:I do not know and can't decide between chlorine gas war crime attacks or chlorophyll plant attacks the latter - it was a mage build that healed the group when you did nature damage (life damage? I haven't played rift in years) and it did ridiculous throughput in-between nerf bat swings. imagine sage but everyone has kardia and the tank gets super-kardia
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Sep 11, 2022 22:02
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SGE already largely fills the design space that Chloromancer occupied. I think there's a lot of good directions they can take it that lean even more into Kardia as a core element of healing, and I'm sure the "mass Kardia on everyone" idea's been put on the list for a future expac.
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Sep 11, 2022 22:07
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drgs having less mdef on their armor for no reason and ergo dying to raidwides other classes survived fine was also "variety". we can find new things to do that are better than the old things, i promise.
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Sep 11, 2022 22:49
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I like the current healer design. Yes, I do miss Bane and Shadow Flare in dungeons which, yes, are pretty rote once you learn how to cycle your ogcds. The current Savage healing paradigm is however a lot of fun, and quite difficult to optimize. You have a lot of tricks to try to weave around accidents in progression, and the tankbuster mechanics of the current tier reward good use of Krasis, Haima, etc. The DPS elements could be a little more complicated, but not a lot. The intent of the current healer design is that the cognitive drain is tracking how you will fit your resources around the next 60+ seconds of mechanics to ensure that you drop the minimum number of GCDs to emergency heals or movement. Doing that is challenging in current savages and ultimates, and there's a limit to how much other stuff you can add on top of it before things break. I find BLM is my favorite DPS for pretty similar reasons. The BLM rotation is probably the simplest of any DPS (ignoring transpose lines), yet it's consistently voted one of the most difficult DPS to play because the rotation isn't the hard part. Executing a mostly-hardcast spell sequence without dropping GCDs while also doing boss mechanics is the hard part. BLM does that with more mobility instants than any of the healers unless you count Ruin 2, and does not have to constantly track a full party's worth of health status in case someone got clipped and needs an emergency druochole. Of course you could argue that healer jobs are easy to play as long as you're ok with losing GCDs to overhealing, and raising the occasional DPS you could've saved. That's true, but true in the same way that DPS is pretty easy if you don't care about dropping some of your combos (or enochian) and misaligning your burst. Healers are just kind of unique in that the mechanical challenge of playing increases more steeply as you go up in game mode difficulty, which means that a reasonable healer design for ultimates is inevitably going to feel simple in exdr. I don't really have a solution for that, it's just so it goes. If the idea of personal dps as an optimization goal on healers in and of itself is unappealing to you, well, FFXIV is probably not a game where you're going enjoy playing healer in high-end content. Xerophyte fucked around with this message at 23:43 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 23:34
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SettingSun posted:What people, I will destroy them. Cleric Stance was a curse we should be celebrating being freed from. No, give Cleric Stance to SMN instead 
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Sep 11, 2022 23:37
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I really don't think any discussion about healer complexity can exist without people dropping the assumption of optimal runs being the norm and it always comes back to that. Healer kits must absolutely be designed around the idea that players are going to mess up or do things imperfectly and their current design is based around giving you enough tools to do the required healing while also having room to compensate for mistakes. In harder content there is less wiggle room for those mistakes but it still exists and even just "I can keep my party alive long enough to see the next set of mechanics so we can practice them during prog" is part of what healer is intended to do. A good healer kit by necessity is going to have more than it needs in perfect situations because the developers can't design around perfect situations in a role where other players play a big part in how much you are expected to do. They can design around high-end content but that high-end content can't assume a static party who is communicating via voice because content has to be accessible for those who are not doing that, and if you run PF as a healer you drat well know that it's difficult to get 'optimal' runs out of a PF team even if everyone know the mechanics and can clear relatively easily. Likewise adding more buttons just to add extra buttons is pretty much a terrible idea because there is a limit to how many buttons a player can reliably comfortably hit either due to physical (PS4 controller) or mental reasons. The more you ask a player to do, even if it's relatively simple, the harder it can be for someone to focus on. DPS have extremely easy expectations because their mental/physical limits are expected to be taxed by maintaining their highest DPS output at all times. Tanks have a middle ground where they have more expectations and thus simpler rotations, because there are more Tank-specific mechanics and the punishment for failing a tank-specific mechanic can be significantly higher. Healers tend to have the same basic mechanical expectations as tanks but also are required to compensate and deal with other player's errors and mistakes, which leaves less room for focusing on a rotation. In ideal situations a healer isn't that tough, you just press one of your many buttons when needed and otherwise focus on uptime, but you can't just design around that, especially because a healer failure is significantly heavier than a DPS or tank failure. At best you are responsible for a significant loss of DPS due to raise/weakness/ruined rotations and at worst you caused a wipe. (DPS and Tanks can both cause wipes too but less easily.) There is a limit to how much you can put on a healer's shoulders before people give up on it. Things like 'honest healers' and overhealing are as much born from the fear of being responsible for a party wipe as they are from anything else, and even if people are nice about it you can feel lovely if you are the one responsible for wasting people's time. "It's only four buttons instead of two" might not sound bad to someone who is good at the game but to casual players literally all it does is add extra stress and the overall net gain to the game is that overall healer DPS will go down and fewer people will player healer overall, even if a minority of skilled players may suddenly adopt healer again exclusively for high-end content. That isn't to say there isn't room to adjust healers but it's a fairly thin line. Healers being too easy to play is overall healthier for the game than them being too hard to play and especially early on in a new expansion healers having a hard time can make the game really unfun to play for a lot of people. (See: bad healers in Titania.) ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 00:33 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 00:28
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Maybe the solution is finding a middle ground? For example, changing the DPS rotation from spamming one spell to something like PLD's Blade combo: it's all one button but you get 3 different animations and it feels nice. Would help with the repetiveness a little and even add some complexity if it can break, but it doesn't overcomplicate the kit. Another thing that would be nice is giving them something like the tanks have were abilities affect other, like Shake it Off improving by using up your mits, or Intervention improving with mitigations. Like in SCH the fairy could affect your kit and your kit the fairy beyond Seraph and gobbling it up.
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Sep 12, 2022 00:36
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Honestly just give healers an auto combo on one button so it at least isn’t just the same effect/sound over and over
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Sep 12, 2022 00:39
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Maybe the solution is finding a middle ground? For example, changing the DPS rotation from spamming one spell to something like PLD's Blade combo: it's all one button but you get 3 different animations and it feels nice. Would help with the repetiveness a little and even add some complexity if it can break, but it doesn't overcomplicate the kit. The issue seems to be number of buttons, not animations. They could give you a thousand animations but if they're 1 button it doesn't seem to solve people's core problem of "I want to press more buttons." So many of the complaints basically boil down to "I want to press 1-2-3 instead of 1-1-1." Healer kits do have that kind of stuff but it's almost all healing/shielding focused. They have multiple ways of boosting their healing output in limited circumstances or whatnot. The core issue again seems to be that the people who are unhappy don't want more healing options, they want more DPS options.
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Sep 12, 2022 00:42
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That wouldn't help anything unless you really hate the sound from your spell. When the main complaint is just pressing one button is boring, keeping everything or new tools on one button is back to square one.
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Sep 12, 2022 00:42
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ImpAtom posted:The issue seems to be number of buttons, not animations. They could give you a thousand animations but if they're 1 button it doesn't seem to solve people's core problem of "I want to press more buttons." For the second point I was talking more about specific combos like the ones I mention rather than generic buffs. And for the first we enter the conondrum where the more we complicate the DPS rotation the more we alienate people who can't juggle doing a DPS and a healer rotation. I might not be the best to talk, given I only play SCH and I've never done hard content as it since I'm the type to tunner vision and you will die under my care cause I focused on mechanics or spamming a button.
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Sep 12, 2022 00:45
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If the rotation is locked to 2 buttons, give me Seraph Strike as a role action please god
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Sep 12, 2022 01:00
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It is 100% the buttons now that I thought about it more. Because, if you look at pre 5.0 healer kits... it's literally the same as now, the only difference is that DoTs were different spells and thus stack. Like WHM was like now, just instead of Aero-Stone spam it was Aero 2 - Aero - Stone spam. When there were cross skills you add Aero to SCH and AST. AST is the same, Scholar was just the exception because it inherited ARC's DPS kit and they didn't delete yet all the extra stuff.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:01
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Cleric Stance likers are weird to me. It just feels like a sort of BLM thing where it's not fun until you know fights well and know when it's safe to use. Which, I suppose you could argue reveals a part of what makes it fun, but like, do you really want that every new fight and every old fight you've forgotten for an entire role? Also, it seems like a fantastic way encourage honest healers, but I'd assume cleric stance likers are/were not subjecting them to rando healers.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:19
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:That wouldn't help anything unless you really hate the sound from your spell. When the main complaint is just pressing one button is boring, keeping everything or new tools on one button is back to square one. It'd be fine with me at least. I would just do what I do with gunbreaker and stick the combo button in 3 different spots to get my push button dopamine.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:23
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Oxyclean posted:Cleric Stance likers are weird to me. A lot of it came down to it being an optimization puzzle, where knowing when you could safely use it and when you had to swap out promoted a sense of mastery. There was a real risk of swapping back into it at the wrong time or failing to mechanically execute and trying to heal while it was still on, so getting really good at using it was immensely satisfying. At the same time, it created such a high skill floor that most people didn't bother trying to DPS on healers at all. Removing it was the correct option for the game's long-term health, but it's completely understandable to miss having a more punishing (and, consequently, more rewarding once mastered) bit of skill expression in the healing toolkit.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:38
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I mean Cleric Stance really didn't demand that much optimization. You kept it on unless you needed to heal. The only hard part about it was that you could accidentally trigger it twice and then there was a cooldown to turn it off. It's very much one of those things which doesn't actually add anything to the skill ceiling, just to the skill floor.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:46
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ImpAtom posted:I mean Cleric Stance really didn't demand that much optimization. You kept it on unless you needed to heal. The lockout window for turning it off demanded that you could both accurately assess incoming tank damage and have enough knowledge about upcoming mechanics to not hit it before tankbusters or large AoEs, or even when there's the potential of someone getting clipped by a mechanic. All of that required good knowledge of individual encounters, and the potential danger of toggling Cleric Stance at a bad time (or failing to remember to toggle it off) kept you on your toes. Again, removing it was the right option for the reason of how it raised the skill floor inordinately, but it's silly to presume that people simply tricked themselves into liking it when it represented a genuine point of skill expression that felt good to finally get down to a science for those people who enjoyed that sort of thing.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:54
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Kerrzhe posted:bring back Chloromancer from RIFT. if you know you know. Finally a good loving opinion. Vermain posted:SGE already largely fills the design space that Chloromancer occupied. I think there's a lot of good directions they can take it that lean even more into Kardia as a core element of healing, and I'm sure the "mass Kardia on everyone" idea's been put on the list for a future expac. Kardia is a wish.com version of Chloro--Chloro's heal scaled proportionally to your DPS, while Kardia is effectively just a HOT that ticks on your GCD. Every source of Life or Death damage triggered it, be it dots or hard casts, which lent itself well to Rift's pseudo-ala-carte class system for splashing Necromancer and Warlock with it for extra Death-based damage. And the fact that with the exception of your Oh poo poo spells it was otherwise a DPS class made it great for onboarding DPS as healers. Chloromancer was honestly the first time I seriously tried to main healer in a game, and I have fond memories of it.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:56
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Tying healing directly into raw damage output is a great idea right up until you accidentally eat a Damage Down and suddenly lose a good chunk of your HPS to it. The exact mechanic (healing as a proc vs. healing as a damage output) matters less than the implementation, which is effectively the same in terms of keeping your damaging GCDs rolling to maximize throughput.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:59
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Vermain posted:Tying healing directly into raw damage output is a great idea right up until you accidentally eat a Damage Down and suddenly lose a good chunk of your HPS to it. lol that would be a kick in the teeth chloromancer had more than just straight damage = healing too. it had the standard fireball spell, but it also had an instant cast nuke with a cooldown, and the big throughput spell was a channel spell like the old mind flay from WoW shadow priest, but with an extremely satisfying chunk-chunk-chunk sound effect. managing cooldowns of those plus your more standard heal spells (including an OGCD heal) was the main gameplay draw of the class i also really liked the Radiant Spores spell, which functioned like a dot but it was actually a debuff you cast on the mob/boss that would heal anyone that hit them. did a lot of heavy lifting keeping melees alive. very neat idea. recently in FFXIV ive basically switched over completely to Scholar. i don't heal raids, just experts once in a while, but i enjoy it. i like the AoE HoT, i like sacred soil, i like excog and the fairy tether even if it can be finicky. it's nice that art of war is instant cast, but i do commiserate with the folks who can't stand the same spell sound effect over and over. especially with Broil.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:10
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Vermain posted:Tying healing directly into raw damage output is a great idea right up until you accidentally eat a Damage Down and suddenly lose a good chunk of your HPS to it. The exact mechanic (healing as a proc vs. healing as a damage output) matters less than the implementation, which is effectively the same in terms of keeping your damaging GCDs rolling to maximize throughput. I was positive someone would say something like this and I can't disagree more. On paper, sure, but as someone who has played both, there's a psychological difference between the two implementations. The only time I actually notice Kardia is when I forgot to put it up, which has fortunately only happened once. But I could see how well I was doing DPS-wise in Rift by how stable my tank's health bar was. It's hard to explain something like ten years out from when I played it, but the difference is there and you know it when you see it.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:16
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Kardia feels less like healing from doing damage, than losing healing when you're not doing damage.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:18
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:Kardia feels less like healing from doing damage, than losing healing when you're not doing damage. I suspect floating combat text has a lot to do with this - something like WoW has a lot more visceral feedback for healing with the bright green numbers popping up that's missing for what amounts to a HoT like Kardia, where all you get is a pale green number in a sea of muddy DoTs. You definitely notice the impact Kardia healing has once you start swapping it around frequently, especially with Soteria active.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:23
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 fus ro dah
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Sep 12, 2022 02:34
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I never played WoW seriously, never even level capped, but when I did play during Wrath/Cata I remember managing aggro during dungeons being a lot more engaging for the tank than it is now in FF14 seeing as now in FF14 there's absolutely no effort. I remember DPS classes being able to draw attention off the tank when they were doing their thing and they had their own tools to shunt the aggro. Maybe in some cases it was desired to have some mobs peel off and relieve pressure on the tank I think, and the DPS were able to treat HP as a resource more variably in that way. I dunno I may not even have remembered how it was correctly but I wouldn't mind a little more decision making going into who has enmity.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:34
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imho - FFXIV, aside from Savage/Ultimate, is not a sweaty game. The level of ease and simplicity to general class design as well as general dungeon design is a good thing, not a bad thing. If people wanna get sweaty, they can do savage and ultimate content. I'm sure there is plenty of challenge there for the people who want it.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:38
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SuperKlaus posted:I never played WoW seriously, never even level capped, but when I did play during Wrath/Cata I remember managing aggro during dungeons being a lot more engaging for the tank than it is now in FF14 seeing as now in FF14 there's absolutely no effort. I remember DPS classes being able to draw attention off the tank when they were doing their thing and they had their own tools to shunt the aggro. Maybe in some cases it was desired to have some mobs peel off and relieve pressure on the tank I think, and the DPS were able to treat HP as a resource more variably in that way. I like it being low effort because I just want to kill the things, I don't want to have to manage my own aggro against the tank's
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Sep 12, 2022 02:39
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wait for sunders, guys
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Sep 12, 2022 02:42
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as someone who played whm in neo exdeath because whm is the job im good at, and getting punished twice for it (once for daring to play a hot class so a bunch of extra poo poo including cover had to be dumped into me because my class design just ripped aggro from the boss even with tanks going as hard as they can AND a ninja with their aggro support, then a second time because "lol youre the whm" so i was forced by my group to gcd heal so my ast cohealer could do...nothing!) no, aggro management wasnt good. it was fake engagement where you were given a bunch of busywork to do for the end result of no benefit, except in some lineups and situations the busywork included "burning buttons you would like to use for other situations, like cover", meaning some comps just got poo poo on because they had a whm or a blm or a tank was being greedy with stance and left it off 10s too long. it sucked.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:45
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The thing about enmity/threat as a system is that in a lot of cases you end up getting disproportionately punished for having high DPS players with a low-geared tank. I guess a possible solution would be to have each ability generate a set amount of enmity/threat that doesn't scale with the actual damage done but that gets rid of what would make having a focus on enmity/threat interesting to begin with. Also, that would probably be extremely difficult to balance.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:47
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Agro management outside of some edge cases was little more than have the Ninja shadewalk the tank and everyone presses diversion on cooldown. Tanks might do one whole combo in their aggro stance before switching/dropping it. If you didn't have a ninja, get hosed.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:49
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my group had a ninja and we still got hosed, because not even a ninja could stand up to "whm solo healing almagest so the astro can sit there and throw cards out" so i needed to be covered to not die to the tankbuster lol. thats the future aggro mattering leads to, and theres no fine-tuning of percentages or potencies that will make sure it happens to no one. and when it does happen its some of the most miserable this game has ever been. its not worth going back to lol.
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Sep 12, 2022 02:57
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It is exceptionally funny to be discussing enmity mattering because in P6S and P7S yesterday I routinely ate the tankbuster when the Second Tank forgot to turn their stance on. Because things still track enmity for double tank busters in savage. What I'm saying is Third Eye on Samurai should be a 90% damage reduction for 1 second.
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Sep 12, 2022 03:20
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Vermain posted:I suspect floating combat text has a lot to do with this - something like WoW has a lot more visceral feedback for healing with the bright green numbers popping up that's missing for what amounts to a HoT like Kardia, where all you get is a pale green number in a sea of muddy DoTs. You definitely notice the impact Kardia healing has once you start swapping it around frequently, especially with Soteria active. I think it's mostly sch existing. Kardia is roughly the faery equivalent (which is to say, theoretically free and constant healing) but if poo poo goes sideways to the point where I have to actually cast heal spells, sch gets to keep benefitting from faery healing while sge does not from Kardia. Not something really noticeable in higher end content because if you've got most of your kit, it's super rare for poo poo to go sideways to the point where you just have nothing to do and have to cast gcd heals, but it does happen and if you've played both, you definitely feel the loss. SuperKlaus posted:I never played WoW seriously, never even level capped, but when I did play during Wrath/Cata I remember managing aggro during dungeons being a lot more engaging for the tank than it is now in FF14 seeing as now in FF14 there's absolutely no effort. I remember DPS classes being able to draw attention off the tank when they were doing their thing and they had their own tools to shunt the aggro. Maybe in some cases it was desired to have some mobs peel off and relieve pressure on the tank I think, and the DPS were able to treat HP as a resource more variably in that way. Aggro management and stance dancing sucked in ff14 and I don't know why people pine for it. 99% of the time it was start a fight in tank stance, throw out 3 gcd's worth of threat moves and then drop it for the rest of the fight. The other 1% of the time it was just miserable for all parties involved. It sucked for the tank because tank stance had damage down attached to it. It sucked for healers for the reasons Kagaya has outlined. It sucked for dps because if you were a top tier dps and your tank was middling, they'd have to sit in tank stance the entire time which is less damage which means longer runs. And it sucked for balance in general because Ninjas were basically mandatory. Failboattootoot fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 03:36
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Crackerjack posted:I watched a couple streamers do Orbonne Monastery earlier and it made me think... "Huh, I wonder what the High Seraph looked like back in FF Tactics," and then "Huh, I should try to glam that." Serendipitously, or perhaps by the hand of providence itself, an FC mate (a hero amongst heroes) linked a shirt in chat that was exactly what I was looking for to complete this outfit. This shirt, plus the 2B pants make a convincing and villainous-looking long sleeve leotard. Oh, I am just pleased as punch!   I have no idea what expression I was going for in these poses. edit: the chad High Seraph
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Sep 12, 2022 03:38
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| # ? May 23, 2024 20:53 |
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I feel like making the healers more distinct in difficulty of play for the same/similar result is probably a good strategy instead of making all healers easier or all healers more complex. Like WAR vs DRK or SMN vs BLM. They started on this direction with SGE by having the Eukrasian spells: using Eukrasia to turn 3 buttons into 3 new buttons doesn't make SGE a better or worse* healer for those 6 spells as they compare to the SCH versions, but they do make it feel more busy and slightly more complex. Have at least one healer class that's super easy and braindead to play for beginners who just want to heal while feeling cool and useful (the WAR/SMN equivalent), but also have healer class(es) that are equally as capable but busier/more difficult to play optimally. *There's an argument to be made about how being instant cast makes a big difference here in mobility or how the eukrasia stuff isn't affected by spell speed, but I feel like it still serves as a good example of "these are almost the same thing, but repackaged enough to feel different". But now that I've been reminded of how good chloromancer felt, I actually just want that instead. Not adapted to FF lore, 100% transplanted including sounds and animations.
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