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I'm never going to be good at improvisation, "voices", or acting in general. I can still be a decent GM because I can prepare in advance, set expectations with my players about how I'll present NPCs, and give them a certain flavor of good time that at least some players will like. Not all of them, of course, but I don't see that as a failure state. GMing is like any hobby that encompasses several skills in that practice is important, learning good technique matters, talent exists and can make a big difference, but even completely "talentless people" (if there is such a thing, I've yet to meet such a person) can reach at least a functional level of competence by leaning heavily on learning and practice.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:30
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Leperflesh posted:I'm never going to be good at improvisation, "voices", or acting in general. Plus, you are a handsome and charming devil...
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Sep 8, 2022 21:32
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Kestral said it better while I was typing up that post, really. Handsome, not really. Charming, I'll leave others to judge. I'm not an awkward introvert, I'm actually quite socially adept; but my social skills aren't really directly applicable to some of the things people like in a "good GM" like... hm. Effusiveness? The ability to imbue a character with a larger-than-life flavor? Basically that quality that helps you get other people excited about something? I haven't really got that.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:34
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I think it's knowing yourself, tailoring the kind of gm you are to that knowledge, and also supporting the areas you are less strong in with effort and prep. Improv is a learnable skill, a key insight is you don't have to be clever, just think: what's a reasonable consequence from what just happened, and maybe take up smoking so you can have a quick cig break to think it through
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Sep 8, 2022 21:37
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:those are all still skills though they're just skills more related to writing and performing. Okay to be clear when I say natural talent I don't mean it's literally an innate genetic characteristic, perhaps I oversold that. What I actually mean is that it's an assortment of skills that have probably been practiced naturally in other forms since early childhood. And I also don't mean it's literally impossible for someone to overcome deficiencies in those areas if you aren't someone who's been working at them all your life, but that it's probably pretty unlikely for someone who's completely unskilled in them to go to being very good at them in a reasonable amount of time. But the point of saying all this in the first place is to tell potential new GMs that they really don't have to be worried about being new to GMing, because it is very possible to be an entertaining GM right out of the gate, and I've seen lots of people do it.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:40
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), none of this is the domain of inherent, inborn traits. not least because almost nothing is
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Don’t most acting schools require auditions? There’s a bootstrapping problem here!
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Sep 8, 2022 21:42
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Yeah I think a key thing you guys are getting at and I'm trying to as well is that there's different kinds and forms of GMing. I can tell my players what my NPCs are saying in third person, kind of like quoting them? That's probably not as fun as a GM who can wear a thousand faces. But I have my own talents and proficiencies I bring to the table. I can focus on those. Occasionally I might try on a voice or something, and my players are likely to be extremely forgiving of my occasional embarrassed stumbling. My style of play would never work as an Actual Play podcast/youtube. Whatever. Games don't have to be all the same.
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Sep 8, 2022 21:43
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Colonel Cool posted:But the point of saying all this in the first place is to tell potential new GMs that they really don't have to be worried about being new to GMing, because it is very possible to be an entertaining GM right out of the gate, and I've seen lots of people do it. i think we're striving towards the same goal here, i just think "you're either good at it or you aren't" is much more discouraging than the reverse
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Sep 8, 2022 21:44
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I think GMing is definitely a learnable skill, but I also think it's an intimidating skill to build given the perceived social stakes and the wide range of expectations. IMHO, the best thing you can do as a GM is honest OOC communication and rapport with your players about what you all want out of the game, especially if anyone is a novice; new GMs in particular really benefit here. GMing for your good friends is a good place to start!
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Sep 8, 2022 21:58
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Some GM'ing skills are skills, but a lot of being a good GM is down to your personality, in my opinion. I.e. not being a controlling dickhead and being willing to ignore the rules when the result they're mandating is just fundamentally unfun for everyone no matter how you twist it. If you're lacking the easily trainable parts of being a GM, but willing to roll with what's fun over what's mandated by the rules precisely, you can be an entertaining GM from day one, even if you aren't perfect. On the other hand, if you're a dictator at the table, then no matter how good you are at the writing, planning and management parts of being a GM, playing your games is liable to suck even after years of practice.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:03
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Is Apocalypse World 2e available in print? I only see the pdf.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:10
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The idea that GMing is innate and unlearnable is absurd, and is trivial to disprove by counterexample. I used to play with a guy who ran torturously long oneshots. He did not have a good feel for what was important or how much time anything would take, and he'd get players tuning out or outright leaving before the final payoff as the game ticked into its sixth hour. Through repeat play he learned to cut the fat out of his games, until he was able to run superb convention scenarios of his own creation in a standard three to four hour slot. Pacing and management of table time are two of the most important GM skills. Both can be taught and both can be learned through experience.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:17
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:i think we're striving towards the same goal here, i just think "you're either good at it or you aren't" is much more discouraging than the reverse I guess it depends who they are. Personally I just don't have the time or patience to sit through a GM trying to learn and practice new social skills, because that's going to be a very slow process, at best. But I'm very willing to help a new GM that has a lot of potential polish more technical aspects of GMing, like knowing the rules of the game, or not calling for excessive or unnecessary rolls, because they're already a fun person to play with, and because learning things like that is so much easier and faster. It's not like I make a habit out of discouraging the first group though. mellonbread posted:The idea that GMing is innate and unlearnable is absurd, and is trivial to disprove by counterexample. I used to play with a guy who ran torturously long oneshots. He did not have a good feel for what was important or how much time anything would take, and he'd get players tuning out or outright leaving before the final payoff as the game ticked into its sixth hour. Through repeat play he learned to cut the fat out of his games, until he was able to run superb convention scenarios of his own creation in a standard three to four hour slot. I think oneshots are a specialty thing, and I can absolutely believe that there's more technical skill in running them well because of all the constraints you have to deal with.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:35
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sebmojo posted:Improv is a learnable skill, a key insight is you don't have to be clever, just think: what's a reasonable consequence from what just happened, and maybe take up smoking so you can have a quick cig break to think it through “Be Boring” from Play Unsafe was one of the best things that I’ve learned in trying to be a better GM. What I think is the obvious conclusion of something is miles off from what my players do and it makes good gaming.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:35
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Colonel Cool posted:I think oneshots are a specialty thing, and I can absolutely believe that there's more technical skill in running them well because of all the constraints you have to deal with. Oneshots are actually something that can be really helpful, because there are people (like me!) who have a ton of fun with the production aspect of running a game and improvising on an existing story/framework but don't have the writing chops or inclination to write a game world or story fully from the ground up. I think they're a completely valid way for novice GMs to get a start, IMO.
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Sep 8, 2022 22:47
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What makes a good GM? [sits on a folding chair and hits play on a boombox] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbPNVEB8O7E (effort, creativity, ability to improvise and run with a prompt, the ability to have rapport and listen to the folks at your table and work with them, the ability to interpret and work with/discard criticism/feedback)
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Sep 8, 2022 23:04
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ninjoatse.cx posted:Is Apocalypse World 2e available in print? I only see the pdf. Looks like it's currently out of print.
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Sep 8, 2022 23:11
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There is a Lumpley Games discord, and it is home to the recent announcement that AW 3e was in the works (so soon after the release of 2e? yes!). Let that be something to look forward to.
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Sep 8, 2022 23:46
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thanks for the info!
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Sep 8, 2022 23:48
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mellonbread posted:The idea that GMing is innate and unlearnable is absurd, and is trivial to disprove by counterexample. I used to play with a guy who ran torturously long oneshots. He did not have a good feel for what was important or how much time anything would take, and he'd get players tuning out or outright leaving before the final payoff as the game ticked into its sixth hour. Through repeat play he learned to cut the fat out of his games, until he was able to run superb convention scenarios of his own creation in a standard three to four hour slot. It's the usual thing that's the blessing and curse of social hobbies. Anything is possible, but nothing is certain. If you've got players or potential players who'll let you run multiple tortuously long one shots until you realize how to trim them, that's great. But if they want to quit after half an hour and never touch one of your games again, that's just tough luck; you're not entitled to anything more.
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Sep 9, 2022 00:24
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PurpleXVI posted:Some GM'ing skills are skills, but a lot of being a good GM is down to your personality, in my opinion. Yeah this is a good way of putting it. Part of why I'm very hesitant to talk about GMing being a "skill" is that I also don't think its quite like there's a scalar quantity of "GMing goodness." This has all reminded me that among campaigns I've run in the last two years, I'm really embarrassed by how badly I handled one and another one was easily the best I felt being behind the screen, or possibly at the table, of all time. And I have a player who was in both of those campaigns who came away with "I really loved campaign A but campaign B frequently frustrated me and wasn't your best work." Even a guy I've played with for over a decade has a different sense of what good GMing looks like. And again that's a pretty narrow focus - I have a friend that I never roleplay with anymore because his notion of what makes a good campaign is lots of strategic challenges, resource management, a world that continues to evolve in a mechanical fashion with or without the players actions, PCs having clearly defined roles that don't rely on player personality, etc. All stuff that is...basically the opposite of what I want or play or run.
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Sep 9, 2022 01:14
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Update: Lumpley himself on the discord:quote:[Apocalypse World 2e]'s been out of stock (not out of print) for I dunno, 6 months? We're in the process of reprinting it, and cross your fingers, it should be available again in October. Torches Upon Stars fucked around with this message at 03:01 on Sep 9, 2022 |
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Sep 9, 2022 02:39
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hyphz posted:It's the usual thing that's the blessing and curse of social hobbies. Anything is possible, but nothing is certain. If you've got players or potential players who'll let you run multiple tortuously long one shots until you realize how to trim them, that's great. But if they want to quit after half an hour and never touch one of your games again, that's just tough luck; you're not entitled to anything more.
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Sep 9, 2022 04:21
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mellonbread posted:At that same open table there was another guy who also ran adventures that tested everyone's patience. It got to the point that nobody signed up for his games and he stopped offering them. I don't know if he lacked the social capital to bring people back to the table after an unfun first outing, or if he just never improved on subsequent runs. Or there’s no reason at all. That’s the hard bit.
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Sep 9, 2022 05:15
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I refer to this one-shot rubric a lot, although it's not the only method. Note that it refers specifically to Dungeon World but the general outline can work for lots of games. https://docs.google.com/document/d/17ypjtlHfcwqrU_-x4b7o0e8tZ_dN2TiNLUu48MLAw7Y/edit?hl=en&forcehl=1#heading=h.kce6i5lodbq1
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Sep 11, 2022 01:40
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PerniciousKnid posted:I refer to this one-shot rubric a lot, although it's not the only method. Note that it refers specifically to Dungeon World but the general outline can work for lots of games. This is really cool as a system-agnostic guide. Not to detract from that guide at all, but it's really funny to me how you can see the caster supremacy of Dungeon World all over the document. -Reward casters for using their knowledge moves by letting them short-circuit combats! -Talky characters can also bypass whole combats! -Look at these awesome moves casters can get at level-up! -Include threats that can only be dealt with by magic, like healing or rituals. -Some characters have moves that revolve around removing hit points, but you should first try to avoid letting them do that because it's a grind. And if they do end up using their moves (because the casters and talky dudes couldn't bypass the fight), you should punish them specifically. Again and again, I wonder why anyone would play a fighter in any of these games. Except 4e, because 4e fighters loving rule.
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Sep 11, 2022 15:15
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Jimbozig posted:This is really cool as a system-agnostic guide. Fighters can be talky characters too, and can even give themselves a talking sword. Smashing doors open quietly can be as good as magic if you play toward it. I never really had a problem with caster supremacy in DW, mechanically it's just everybody rolling 2d6 with some narrative pretext to nudge the results. The only class that really gave me issues was druid shapeshifting.
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Sep 11, 2022 17:08
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God I’m getting burnt out just trying to schedule RPGs at this point. I feel like I did everything right: weekly reminders, consistent scheduling, plenty of advance prep, but I’ll get like 1 RSVP from a group of like 12 people who were interested and said they could make Sundays. Even when I’m saying I’m running a one-shot (WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE SAID THEY WANTED) I get nothing. It’s hard not to feel like I’m the only responsible person I know.
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Sep 11, 2022 18:43
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Lumbermouth posted:God I’m getting burnt out just trying to schedule RPGs at this point. I feel like I did everything right: weekly reminders, consistent scheduling, plenty of advance prep, but I’ll get like 1 RSVP from a group of like 12 people who were interested and said they could make Sundays. Even when I’m saying I’m running a one-shot (WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE SAID THEY WANTED) I get nothing. It's an extremely depressing part of the hobby for sure. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact a lot of people like the idea of playing rpg's and playing them consistently but don't want to put in any of the effort it would actually take to do that.
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Sep 11, 2022 19:30
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Lumbermouth posted:God I’m getting burnt out just trying to schedule RPGs at this point. I feel like I did everything right: weekly reminders, consistent scheduling, plenty of advance prep, but I’ll get like 1 RSVP from a group of like 12 people who were interested and said they could make Sundays. Even when I’m saying I’m running a one-shot (WHICH IS WHAT PEOPLE SAID THEY WANTED) I get nothing. I said ages ago to my group that I was happy to dm but someone else had to organize it. Works a fuckin charm
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Sep 11, 2022 20:21
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Jimbozig posted:This is really cool as a system-agnostic guide. I mean, DW is the weakest AW-hack I've played for a reason, and a lot of it comes down to having stats whose application is too narrow. Like I'm going to consider a couple other AW hacks that I've liked and what the "beat-stick" stat does - Legend of the Elements Hot is your main beat stick stat, and it covers acts of open violence but also threats and general dishonorable behavior. Fluid can also be used pretty flat-out for combat though not generally for starting poo poo, but its also used for any repositioning and for evasion. -Heart and Lightning Heart is the most direct "how dangerous you are in a fight" stat, and it covers also a characters passion, charm, ability to love and cry. -Transit is somewhat messier but ultimately Rampancy is the most violent stat. It's also the stat you use for luck and lateral thinking (i.e. it's the stat you move when you just want to beg the GM to make up some Trek bullshit to save you). -Epyllion Courage is obviously the violence stat, it's also the stat for, well, facing down fears and in particular standing up to people (dragons) more powerful than you. And that's just within basic moves, not considering playbook moves at all. Making a violent character in any of those systems means making a character that is good at other things too, which follows of course from how Hard works in AW. And I think the fact that DW discards that design element is on purpose, because some RPG enthusiasts who I disagree with rather strongly consider the existence of classes that just have fewer verbs than other classes to be a strength for a system. They argue that it is a sort of training wheels, that it is less overwhelming for players that are inexperienced or nervous to play something that just has less to do at the table and that has only a very narrow range of choices for situations. That some people thing this is a desirable trait makes it feel pretty intentional that DW does so even after having come from AW.
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Sep 11, 2022 21:20
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ItohRespectArmy posted:It's an extremely depressing part of the hobby for sure. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact a lot of people like the idea of playing rpg's and playing them consistently but don't want to put in any of the effort it would actually take to do that. And I that the slow turn sequence, and description problems, are elephants in the room for the whole thing.
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Sep 11, 2022 21:22
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So, the solutions to the LFQW problem are:
Am I missing any? sebmojo posted:I said ages ago to my group that I was happy to dm but someone else had to organize it. Works a fuckin charm Shout-out to nomadotto who always sends out calendar invites and Doodles because my brain just doesn't work that way.
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Sep 11, 2022 21:38
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CitizenKeen posted:Am I missing any? 5) Limit what magic can ultimately do conceptually, in an equal and opposite way to fighters being Gilgamesh. You aren't making Merlin, you're making some random scumbag who can shoot fire from their staff and do some weird stuff with runes. This will lead to 1) or 2) on some level, but... yeah, of course it well. Not doing that would mean you're designing your game wrong as a joke. Doing 4) would also mean doing one of those two. EDIT: Okay, I guess there's also "don't try, and intentionally make your game about cool wizards and their slightly less cool companions". But at that point you're just making Ars Magica. Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 22:54 on Sep 11, 2022 |
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Sep 11, 2022 21:49
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ItohRespectArmy posted:It's an extremely depressing part of the hobby for sure. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact a lot of people like the idea of playing rpg's and playing them consistently but don't want to put in any of the effort it would actually take to do that. The main thing that’s frustrating me is that I don’t feel like my time is being respected. I was putting together props and and doing my highlighting when I reminded folks that we had decided on next Sunday for our one-shot, only to be met with a bunch of cancellations. Even with prepublished adventures, it’s still work that I’m putting in that could be spent on meal prep or painting miniatures or something that’s not good effort after bad. I think I need to take a break just so I don’t end up resenting my friends.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:12
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I operate on a system that I'll over-recruit, remind people of the first few sessions, and then if anyone fails to show after that, they'll just be missing those sessions and free to drop out if they keep not showing. Games usually seem to have a consistent flake rate of 15 to 25% no matter who you recruit, as someone either realizes the game isn't for them, have real life things come up or discover that scheduling that seemed super simple suddenly involves them playing the first hours of the session from their phone while driving home from work or whatever. I am absolutely not anyone's kindergarden teacher or parent, my players are adults and I expect them to make their own adult decisions.
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Sep 12, 2022 01:29
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Jimbozig posted:This is really cool as a system-agnostic guide. Nah, you're just seeing the caster supremacy afterimage burned into your brain. Casters actually have a dang big problem in Dungeon World, especially low-level Wizards, because Wizzrobe's got one damage-numbers option and it starts with Magic and ends with Missile and unlike Fightgar and Fletcher he can run out of it super easily, and if you just turn combat into somebody holding down space on the attack button in Wizardry, Wizzrobe gets to do approximately jack and poo poo to contribute to the struggle for existence. Damage is the most obvious hazard and the most obvious solution and Wizzrobe's shafted in both those departments. Heck, if you just turn combat into somebody holding down space on the attack button in Wizardry, that's also bad because everybody else gets to decide jack and poo poo when their turn comes up, they just do the most obvious thing because why wouldn't they? The bell rings how you strike it, and presenting people interesting options during combat, including assessing the battlefield and talking or pressuring their way out of it, is an excellent way to get people to make interesting decisions during combat. You're also drastically overestimating the supremacy of casters at gathering information. At character creation you get a +2, two +1s, two 0s, and a -1 for your six stats. 1 point can be a decent swing on a 2d6 scale, sure, but even rolling +0 isn't a death sentence, especially on the information-gathering moves whose downside is more "you get less information or it comes with a catch" than "PAIN AND DEATH". Besides, if I put the spotlight on somebody and they choose to gather information Wizzrobe can't dive in all WAIT WAIT WAIT because it's not his turn and the only thing you can do out of turn is help someone else, which Wizzrobe is also one of the worst at because not wanting people to trifle in your affairs means you don't write a lot of bonds with them. (Though I will confess, if I run a scenario where I'm expecting lore to be a little important and everybody walks in with a +0 int I will find some way to at least spot them a milieu-appropriate bag of books.) Even straight skunking an information roll is just fine because it's not like nothing happens on a miss; a miss is actually what gives me the GM the most freedom to act, and I can present the information as the worst kind of information, the information that you'll need to go into danger to act on, perform dangerous experiments to confirm, or that just impresses upon you the sheer magnitude of the predicament you're in, how are you ever going to get out of this one, it's not like you're geared up for adventure or anything oh wait. Anyway, I play a fighter in Dungeon World because I get a sweet signature weapon, deal amazingly with damage, and destroy obstacles with pure strength from the word go, and I can also participate in the information economy by amping up my ability to read weaknesses in combat and consult the ancestral spirit of my sweet signature weapon for advice.
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Sep 12, 2022 03:33
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It's even better if you try to schedule next session and you hear "oh yeah we can make time in 5 weeks"
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Sep 12, 2022 06:20
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For one glorious year we were playing once a week doing two separate games and we got through so much, it owned
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Sep 12, 2022 06:35
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Jimbozig posted:-Some characters have moves that revolve around removing hit points, but you should first try to avoid letting them do that because it's a grind. And if they do end up using their moves (because the casters and talky dudes couldn't bypass the fight), you should punish them specifically. It's less "punish them" and more "Here's how to make combat in DW more interesting then the fighting types just rolling Hack and Slash over and over again."
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