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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i played RF Online briefly which was basically sci-fi lineage II and the PK was rough but there were always roving bands protecting low-level areas and keeping things from getting out of hand because there was an understanding that keeping people in your faction around and feeling like they had recourse against PKers would give them more bodies to work with in the Chip Wars, the large-scale faction vs. faction vs. faction event. The 3 way chip war was a really interesting idea and was always super fun. Not to mention you got to mine the really good stuff if your faction won. RF online was a weird game. I remember players got voted into positions of power.
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Sep 10, 2022 01:18
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:i played RF Online briefly which was basically sci-fi lineage II and the PK was rough but there were always roving bands protecting low-level areas and keeping things from getting out of hand because there was an understanding that keeping people in your faction around and feeling like they had recourse against PKers would give them more bodies to work with in the Chip Wars, the large-scale faction vs. faction vs. faction event. oh man, rf online what a blast from the past. accretian empire ruled.
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Sep 12, 2022 06:51
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FrostyPox posted:I played very little DAoC but my limited experience leads me to believe that its form of PvP (and Warhammer Online's) are optimal, all though Warhammer Online had a laundry list of other issues that held it back. EVE is also pretty good. I didn't get to play much but a friend of mine and my brother did and they loved it so I'm sad I missed out - they both played a bunch of Warham at launch too. Wonder if Mythic hadn't burned so much money working on Imperator Online if Warhammer could've been made properly with 3 factions and such.
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Sep 12, 2022 14:03
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ESOs pvp zone seemed interesting on it's face. Shame that gameplay in ESO is so goddamn boring. Someone needs to make a DOAC2, cuz I missed that train, and it sounds so loving cool. I used to underlevel wow in world pvp up to wotlk. Cata and pandaria introduced such ludicrous power spikes that it absolutely killed that aspect of the game for me, and I just quit playing.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:09
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SoUncool posted:ESOs pvp zone seemed interesting on it's face. Shame that gameplay in ESO is so goddamn boring. Someone needs to make a DOAC2, cuz I missed that train, and it sounds so loving cool. I have a tradition that every six months or so I think to myself, "I need a new MMO, ESO has first person and a big world, maybe I've been too hard on it and I should give it another shot," so I re-sub and play for 30 minutes before thinking, "wow, no, this game plays like poo poo and is boring AF," and then I shelve it for another six months. I just did it again last night! I would play the heck outta a DAOC2.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:17
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kedo posted:I have a tradition that every six months or so I think to myself, "I need a new MMO, ESO has first person and a big world, maybe I've been too hard on it and I should give it another shot," so I re-sub and play for 30 minutes before thinking, "wow, no, this game plays like poo poo and is boring AF," and then I shelve it for another six months. This is my exact experience with ESO.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:47
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jokes posted:This is my exact experience with ESO. Its the entire ESO world, I can even go and see Vvardenfell again! ... Then why is this so dull??
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Sep 12, 2022 15:50
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That’s my experience with a lot of MMOs these days. I think it’s just because the moment-to-moment combat is so completely toothless and dull that it just doesn’t hold my attention. GW2 kind of gets around it by making combat actually fun to click the buttons even if it is way too easy, and the non-combat exploration and movement is so fun. But basically everything else doesn’t have a lot to fall back on.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:54
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I think GW2 combat feels pretty bad too, at least I can never get into it. Same with ESO combat. I was kind of hoping the latest ESO update would change it up more but they seem to have dialed back a lot of changes so I have not bothered to try it even. I think part of it for me is the weapon swapping during combat feels bad and rotations become really stupid with it. If you look up a GW2 rotation for necromancers for example you get some 37 step rotation. Which is not even an exaggeration but an actual random build I just opened. I also checked warrior, first build has no rotation listed at all, the second one I clicked has 44 steps. Not counting the pre-cast part. The world of both of these games seem way more interesting than most current MMOs to me, but yeah, I keep dropping off because of the combat.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:16
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In GW2 that level of weapon swapping and rotation optimization is some real min-max level poo poo that you won't have to do for most levels of content. As long as you have a decent understanding of what build you're trying to go for (power, condition, etc) and you know how to pick out the gear, specializations, etc. For example, bow warrior is probably numerically better than rifle warrior in almost every way, but rifle warrior is cooler. So I stick with rifle warrior and it's fine for plinking away at poo poo from a distance. I'm not top DPS but I'm still able to handle things on my own. And that's fine.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:22
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90% of people in GW2 spend a lot of time on the ground so if you're doing any amount of damage and not being downed on the floor, you're better than everyone else. If you ever, in any way, interact with a break bar you're basically a god walking amongst mere mortals. Those rotations are some bullshit that nobody really does. They aren't really able to reliably pull them off because they come up with those rotations by beating the poo poo out of a practice dummy. But the minute a boss does a wing flap, it would ruin the entire rotation and they'd be hosed. Best to just find a weapon you feel comfortable using without having to think about it and try your damnedest to stay alive.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:25
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Anno posted:That’s my experience with a lot of MMOs these days. I think it’s just because the moment-to-moment combat is so completely toothless and dull that it just doesn’t hold my attention. I really was struck by how good mounts feel to control in GW2, even moreso than mounts in most single player games jokes posted:90% of people in GW2 spend a lot of time on the ground so if you're doing any amount of damage and not being downed on the floor, you're better than everyone else. If you ever, in any way, interact with a break bar you're basically a god walking amongst mere mortals. Those rotations are some bullshit that nobody really does. They aren't really able to reliably pull them off because they come up with those rotations by beating the poo poo out of a practice dummy. But the minute a boss does a wing flap, it would ruin the entire rotation and they'd be hosed.  What I liked about GW2's weapon is rotations largely felt less deterministic than other MMOs, there's certainly bread and butter big damage combos but alot of your options feel much more contextual and rely on applying them in the right situation at the right time, it's not perfect but it's the best stab at hotbar combat I've seen
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Sep 12, 2022 19:34
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Maybe it’s just the way my class/weapon preferences have worked out but a lot of DPS comes from relatively few buttons. Everything else is adding in the other buttons in the right situations and staying alive.
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Sep 12, 2022 19:55
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No Dignity posted:I really was struck by how good mounts feel to control in GW2, even moreso than mounts in most single player games There's really no bad choices, which is interesting however you can definitely tinker tinker and find your perfect playstyle/setup but this is unique to you, mostly, so looking up a guide really doesn't do you any good because you might loving hate the most optimal way to beat up a training dummy. Importantly, the game really likes zergs that break off into smaller groups. The best, in my opinion, "demo" for GW2 endgame is the silverwastes for HoT which is conveniently where they place your character when you do a class trial.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:03
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The rotations in GW2 aren't useful in nearly every part of the game. You'd only use them in the daily dungeon and raids which few people do. I had my DPS class' best rotation memorised, but would usually do a sloppy alteration with more autoattacks because noone cared. Sometimes I got called out by the kind of lunatic who'd run a DPS meter in the open world for having high DPS and I didn't have the heart to tell them I wasn't trying and didn't give a drat Also in the open world I was largely on my own and the DPS rotation was useless because I'd prefer to use blinds and dodges to stay alive
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Sep 14, 2022 13:25
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My first car was a stick
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I don't pvp so i don't know anything about pvp, but I like almost everything about pve and world exploration in gw2 more than any other game. The only thing that turns me off is that the lack of gear progression and loot feels pretty boring to me.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:19
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Pigbottom posted:I don't pvp so i don't know anything about pvp, but I like almost everything about pve and world exploration in gw2 more than any other game. The only thing that turns me off is that the lack of gear progression and loot feels pretty boring to me. Same but then I realized that the grind/progression (via collections) is actually a very interesting twist, and when you find a thing to focus on you end up doing a ton of different poo poo, which is nice. Thankfully most things reward gold at fairly similar rates, as gold is basically the most important thing to have, as it can be used for gems and also everything forever. jokes fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Sep 15, 2022 |
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Sep 15, 2022 18:24
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in gw2 the combat in base areas/dungeons is still pretty bad but it seemed like they started figuring out what they wanted to do with it in the living story and expansions. i will say make sure to put at least one stunbreak on your utility bar. eventually disables get really common and are annoying if you don't have something that will break you out of them.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:25
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Gear seems very boring in basically every MMO now. If it’s going to be boring I’d rather the GW2 system so I at least don’t need to farm new boring gear to replace the old stuff.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:27
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Catgirl Al Capone posted:in gw2 the combat in base areas/dungeons is still pretty bad but it seemed like they started figuring out what they wanted to do with it in the living story and expansions. This is extremely important advice-- the quicker the cooldown on your stunbreak the better, the best skill being Outrage for Warrior's elite spec-- Berserker. 10s stunbreak that extends berserk and applies burning to people around you? Hubba hubba.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:32
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Anno posted:Gear seems very boring in basically every MMO now. If it’s going to be boring I’d rather the GW2 system so I at least don’t need to farm new boring gear to replace the old stuff. I never even particularly enjoyed the content that requires flawless DPS routines and perfectly itemized gear, there is nothing even remotely interesting or engaging about bigger and better numbers. I'd like it if they would stop forcing really awful pvp into every single MMO, if I want to kill other players I'll go play Battlefield or something. I think balancing stuff for PvP is partially responsible for why gear is so boring in so many MMOs.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:44
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Mustang posted:I never even particularly enjoyed the content that requires flawless DPS routines and perfectly itemized gear, there is nothing even remotely interesting or engaging about bigger and better numbers. FF14's PVP is completely walled off and that's never stopped the game from having the world's most pointless itemisation 
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Sep 15, 2022 18:46
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The only reason that gear is boring in MMOs is because the drive for optimization will eventually reduce it to a numbers game. Devs certainly can create hundreds of items with unique effects, but the list of viable options will eventually be pared down to a small handful, with every other choice becoming a trap option for unaware players. The only way to overcome this is with content that has enough per-session variability that calculating optimal values becomes challenging (see: something like League), but that's a tall ask for PVE content. Maybe we'll eventually hit a point with machine learning where dynamic L4D-style content on a grander scale is possible, but it probably won't be for a while.
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Sep 15, 2022 18:59
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Yeah, people will do huge amounts of iterative calculations or whatever and determine the most optimal number and then everyone will just do that, especially if it means you get more/faster rewards. See WoW's poo poo. However, people sort of like the idea of vertical progression and so you find people who get bored of a game fairly quickly if they don't see their levels and damage increase.
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Sep 15, 2022 19:03
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Vermain posted:The only reason that gear is boring in MMOs is because the drive for optimization will eventually reduce it to a numbers game. Devs certainly can create hundreds of items with unique effects, but the list of viable options will eventually be pared down to a small handful, with every other choice becoming a trap option for unaware players. The only way to overcome this is with content that has enough per-session variability that calculating optimal values becomes challenging (see: something like League), but that's a tall ask for PVE content. Maybe we'll eventually hit a point with machine learning where dynamic L4D-style content on a grander scale is possible, but it probably won't be for a while. They could also just make it so the majority of people don’t acquire most of the gear, and you upgrade gear fairly rarely in general, but also not need the best gear to do the best content. Then you kind of have to put together the best you can with what you have, knowing you may never get BIS items. I assume that would be hated these days, though. If anything GW2 gear sticks with me more than any of the others because it isn’t ephemeral. My Guardian has used the same Sunrise great sword since like 2014 - that to me is now a cool rear end memorable item because I’ve had it equipped basically full time for a fifth of my real life.
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Sep 15, 2022 19:04
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Vermain posted:The only reason that gear is boring in MMOs is because the drive for optimization will eventually reduce it to a numbers game. IMHO at least, it's entirely possible to have many local optimums (vs. just damage-per-second against eHP). But, you need to permit different play styles, many of which tend to cause havoc on the PVP side (e.g., hard cc, etc.)
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Sep 15, 2022 20:33
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It is exceedingly rare to actually need the best gear to do the most difficult content, but that doesn't really matter, because plenty of people who want to do the most difficult content will try and get the best gear to do the content and expect others to do the same, resulting in the exact same behavior you're trying to avoid, but even worse, because now those people who want the best gear have no consistent way to get that gear.
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Sep 16, 2022 00:18
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gaj70 posted:IMHO at least, it's entirely possible to have many local optimums (vs. just damage-per-second against eHP). It's not even really that damage is the best point to optimize in every circumstance, but rather that the optimization is trivial to figure out. Even if you have encounters that favor different local optimums (e.g. CC duration, debuff strength, etc.), all you end up with after is, effectively, FFXI, where everyone has dozens of different gearsets that are optimal for specific encounters. The reason why I mention L4D and League is that you need combat encounters that aren't trivially solvable to be able to create opportunities for creative expression with gear, since it's harder to mathematically determine whether option X is better than option Y when the variables change enough from session-to-session that having extra movespeed or stronger CC actually is optimal under certain conditions.
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Sep 16, 2022 01:19
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Vermain posted:where everyone has dozens of different gearsets that are optimal for specific encounter I think you've bought in to modern PVP-friendly (i.e., simple) game design. It doesn't have to be that way e.g., actually-rare gear / gear modifiers, gear can only be changed in camp, "optimal" is a function of your group makeup, Dii-style random modifiers on mobs, encounters that actually require OODA loops, etc. Instanced dungeons alone provide a level of control that EQ designers could only dream of.
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Sep 16, 2022 03:33
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gaj70 posted:I think you've bought in to modern PVP-friendly (i.e., simple) game design. It doesn't have to be that way e.g., actually-rare gear / gear modifiers, gear can only be changed in camp, "optimal" is a function of your group makeup, Dii-style random modifiers on mobs, encounters that actually require OODA loops, etc. In order: Rare gear just means people are annoyed that they can't get BiS. Gear that can be changed in camp only does absolutely nothing to solve optimization problems. Making "optimal" a function of group make up won't matter when people only make 'optimal' groups. Random mobs just irritates people when they get a 'hard' mob. And, well, OODA loops are always the goal, aren't they?
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Sep 16, 2022 04:30
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gaj70 posted:Instanced dungeons alone provide a level of control that EQ designers could only dream of.  LDoN expansion was only instanced dungeons/raids and launched Sept 2003
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Sep 16, 2022 06:20
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Vinestalk posted:
Plane of time was in 2002. It was the first instance raid of EQ. But your right, the entire LDoN xpac went instance only.
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Sep 16, 2022 06:33
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Launch PoTime was not instanced and was made instanced much later iirc, but we're splitting hairs
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Sep 16, 2022 07:31
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wasn't launch potime pseudo-instanced where there was actually like 3 or 4 copies of potimeb off floating in the void and you could claim one for your raid? I might be misremembering how it worked, I didn't get into potime before proper instancing
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Sep 16, 2022 22:08
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Launch I'm not 100% about pseudo-instancing. On AlKabor, no other guild got into PoTime while I played so I have no clue if there was the whole lockout mechanic that came with the pseudo-instances that prevented guilds from even getting to Quarm. Pretty sure 2005 is when they converted PoTime to actual instancing.
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Sep 16, 2022 22:26
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Vinestalk posted:
In fairness, I quit/retired from EQ about when Planes of Power came out.
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Sep 19, 2022 22:17
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LDoN owned because it allowed casual players like me to get elemental level gear without raiding by just doing group content. eventually i was able to do high end PoP content without having to gear up doing luclin raiding but most of the raiding guilds hated it my recollection is also that it was the first use of instancing in EQ and that PoTime instancing came later
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Sep 21, 2022 01:05
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If any of you are interested in trying a niche UO-like from the pre-WoW days, Ashen Empires is on steam and is free to play. If it's still anything like how I played it back in the day, expect a lot of jank, highly insular community drama, and the usual gameplay rules of the era.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:51
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Lifroc posted:Ugh.. every time someone mentions PVP there's the knee jerk reaction. Condescending rear end in a top hat behavior like this is a good enough explanation for why people would rather have it fenced off entirely so it doesn't interfere with their game experience. God forbid somebody want to play a game on their terms, they must be some kind of unimaginative moron who are totally incapable of imagining any other form of gameplay. And while we're at it, let's minimize a serious medical condition.
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Sep 21, 2022 07:43
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You never play games on your own terms. Only the developers.
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Sep 21, 2022 08:00
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