|
No Mods No Masters posted:Tell me where is gandalf. For I much desire to watch scenes with him lol
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 00:51
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:32 |
|
|
That's gonna play in loop in my head for hours now, thanks
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 00:51
|
|
|
Elentor posted:That's gonna play in loop in my head for hours now, thanks Ugh yeah it already is for me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 00:53
|
|
|
fischtick posted:I predict two harfoot caravans meet one another in the tall grass and Pallando and Alatar are each pushing the back cart. Cue animated spider-man pointing between the two, then they get a spin-off The Blues Wizards. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 00:58
|
|
|
fischtick posted:I predict two harfoot caravans meet one another in the tall grass and Pallando and Alatar are each pushing the back cart. Cue animated spider-man pointing between the two, then they get a spin-off The Blue Wizards. Turns out they just retired out to the country somewhere to be together, and Gandalf and Radagast agreed to keep it a secret because nobody wanted Saruman at the wedding.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:01
|
|
|
Hidingo Kojimba posted:I can totally see Sauron eating snails and burning up the star map if he's desperate and addled by some sort of accident or usurpation that led to him being cast across the earth as a flaming ball. Thank you for making my actual point better than I was making it. Eiba posted:Here's a thought with regards to early Gandalf: baby Gandalf gets sent in the 2nd age. He learns a lot about the world thanks to his adventures we get to witness in this series. He then leaves. This I can buy because it makes so much more sense than anything else. Arc Hammer posted:
Aside from as far as I know the only one who made Balrogs was Morgath and he's gone, let's consider what you're saying: For five seasons or so we're going to watch Meteor Man bonding with the Harfoots and learning about the world, before he gets turned into a big flaming special effect that "shall not pass" Gandalf. Because that seems like an absurd waste of story to me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:07
|
|
|
The Stranger is old Aragorn, who followed an evil sorcerer through a portal to the past, Terminator-style. That's why he's naked. He's constantly befuddled because old Aragorn is in the late stages of senility.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:18
|
|
|
Sheng-Ji Yang posted:It is 100% Gandalf and that is good imo. The Istari were sent to combat Sauron, Sauron is around now just as he will be at the start of the third age. They're already messing heavily with the timeline, I just don't see the issue with him arriving an age earlier for the same purpose. And coming via meteor is a whole lot more interesting than arriving on a boat, and conveys to viewers that he's not just some normal guy. For me it just completely changes the entire perspective of Gandalf in the TA if he was around for the events of the SA and remembers them or aided in them at all. That is not a minor change, thats a monumental shift in character to me. If Gandalf witnesses the War of the Last Alliance it changes so much of his characterization in the events of The Hobbit and LOTR, I just dont see the way Gandalf acts towards anything or anyone in the books making much sense if he was there for the first conflict. Like what is the point of Saruman in the TA then? If its implied he is the same Maia and he returns to spirit form and is then sent back as Gandalf with a wisdom gleamed from those events similar to his return in LOTR, sure. Again, you can do almost anything you want with a Baby Istari and more if he just specifically not literally Gandalf. The writers are making it harder on themselves otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:20
|
|
|
Everyone posted:For five seasons or so we're going to watch Meteor Man bonding with the Harfoots and learning about the world, before he gets turned into a big flaming special effect that "shall not pass" Gandalf. Because that seems like an absurd waste of story to me. When we first saw it: Gandalf was fighting a big scary monster, cool! When we watch it again after Rings of Power shows DB's (Durin's Bane's) tragic backstory where a wizard much like Gandalf himself was corrupted (forcibly? via seduction?) by Sauron: Oh gosh, that's a person Gandalf is fighting. A tragic person who had sad things happen to him to leave him in this horrible corrupted state. Even a creature that first appears to be a monster might be an actual person with their own story. In fact the pathos added to that encounter is the only reason I think the Stranger could be D.B. Balrog. It would be weird and pointless otherwise. AccountSupervisor posted:For me it just completely changes the entire perspective of Gandalf in the TA if he was around for the events of the SA and remembers them or aided in them at all. That is not a minor change, thats a monumental shift in character to me. If Gandalf witnesses the War of the Last Alliance it changes so much of his characterization in the events of The Hobbit and LOTR, I just dont see the way Gandalf acts towards anything or anyone in the books making much sense if he was there for the first conflict. Like what is the point of Saruman in the TA then? Would it make a difference if baby Gandalf doesn't participate in the war itself, but just kind of hangs around its periphery? My (limited) understanding about the Saruman point is that he was jealous that Gandalf was recognized by the elves when Saruman was supposed to be leader of the order, correct? Perhaps Saruman is greater as an ethereal spirit, but doesn't bother to come to Middle Earth to get his hands dirty in the 2nd age like the Gandalf we see in the show. What we're watching could emphasize that story from the books in that case.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:29
|
|
|
Don't forget that in the lore, Saruman arrived in Middle-Earth first of the Istari, and Gandalf last. An adroit nod to Tolkien's Catholic faith, of course (Mathew 20:16).
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:38
|
|
|
I'd say the Balrog was already corrupted by Melkor. But they've forgotten that and returned to a state of pseudo-innocence. They aren't a flaming monster but they are still of flame (meteor, fireflies) and monstrous (snails).
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
Eiba posted:
Id have to take awhile to start pulling exact quotes or moment but for me what immediately sticks out is his relationship to Aragorn. His trust and belief in Aragorn to me Id find it a bit cheapened if he had been there for the times of the fall of Numenor or has any interactions with Elendil and Isildur or even a direct knowledge of them as existing when he did. His faith and belief in Aragorn because of who Aragorn is as a person and not just a descendants of the Numenorians/Dunedain would seem cheapened because Gandalf knew or was somewhat adjacent to two of his most important ancestors defining moments. It just starts to vere into Star Wars Tattooine everything is becoming smaller or too connected territory(its Tolkien I know lol) I know were already gunna get some of that by default with some of the timeline changes theyre making but I hope theyre at least somewhat cautious with how they do that adapting. Also his relationship with Elrond would be strange given the whole "I was there bro" angle. It also kind of changes the White Councils dynamics. This quote in particular from Unfinished Tales has me convinced hes just an oc Istari or is Gandalf in all but name and TA form and well understand that when he came back in the TA he was "reset". Unfinished Tales posted:"For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly." (The Istari, *Unfinished Tales*) We will absolutely be getting a scene where The Stranger "remembers" what he is and that will be whatever these constellations are leading to. Itd be easier to just say my issue is him being specifically Gandalf and having remained in ME after the SA into TA, I have no problem with him being Olorin and returning in TA. AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Sep 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 01:46
|
|
|
I think many of you are not fully appreciating under how strict rules from the Tolkien estate Amazon is operating here. It's one thing to condense timelines or omit certain characters and minor events. Inserting important characters from LotR like Gandalf or Saruman into the events of the Second Age without any basis on lore, is on a whole another level. It simply won't be allowed to happen. Amazon can freely create new original characters to play minor roles. They can somewhat freely manouver characters like Galadriel and Elrond, who are canonically present in Middle-earth during that time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
My predictions: Durins Bane will show up in a season finale and wreck Moria like Vader at the end of Rogue One. Someone will put a baby giant squid in the lake to keep people away. Stranger is absolutely Gandalf who will help his new hobbit pals find somewhere safe with plenty of pipeweed to settle down out of the way of the war, but won't get involve with the main plot beyond dropping some sage fourth wall advice to Galadriel or Isildur. Ending season 1 will be 4 more comet drop pods flying in. The blue wizards will be nonbinary nonwhite lovers in a particular gently caress you to the season 1 reactions.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:24
|
|
|
2nd Amendment posted:Which lore? In order of hardness, we have 1) the personal journal of a blowhard 2) a pre-modern history both taken from the same ur-source, 3) a collection of religious texts and then 4) notes from the person who was transmitting 1-3. I made a post earlier in the thread describing in brief what a Balrog is. Read that if you disagree with anything let me know. They're not just any old corrupted maiar they're primordial demons that were swayed to Melkor during the Ainulindale but trumping all that is the fact that this thing has the body of a man and it needs it. It eats. It needs a cloak to keep warm. It's an Istari OR it's a very sneaky primordial demon pretending to have lost its memory while eating snails and following around some Hobbits because I dunno. The bump on the head made it forget that it rebelled against God before the world was made? It's all speculation and the writers will make the character be whatever they want it to be but if that speculation is base on things Tolkien wrote it absolutely cannot be Durin's bane.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:29
|
|
|
BoldFace posted:I think many of you are not fully appreciating under how strict rules from the Tolkien estate Amazon is operating here. It's one thing to condense timelines or omit certain characters and minor events. Inserting important characters from LotR like Gandalf or Saruman into the events of the Second Age without any basis on lore, is on a whole another level. It simply won't be allowed to happen. Amazon can freely create new original characters to play minor roles. They can somewhat freely manouver characters like Galadriel and Elrond, who are canonically present in Middle-earth during that time. Yes if my knowledge is correct Tom Shippey who is/was their Tolkien Consultant specifically said in an interview years ago that the TA is completely off limits in terms of making changes. Also iirc the deal is highly centered around any changes or blanks filled into the SA cannot "contradict" anything Tolkien wrote. So considering a Blue Wizard in the form of unnamed oc Istari is something that does not contradict anything given the inconsistent arrival time of them. Having him being specifically Gandalf does, while they would probably have to heavily appeal to the Tolkien Estate even if they wanted to make him Olorin pre-TA. Thats also why you get these sort of weird half almagamations of events from the FA. They explain the SA so they are allowed to touch on them loosely but not directly. Edit: heres the article where they go into some detail https://www.slashfilm.com/568297/lord-of-the-rings-season-1-episode-count/#more-570775 AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 02:34 on Sep 13, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:32
|
|
|
If it's one of the Blue wizards is it Darkness-slayer or East-helper? If he's helping pull a cart, that could work. But streaking across the sky and landing in a big fireball could be slaying darkness. And he's working out how to use fire to see things on paper, that could also help with Darkness slaying. Or... what if it's a baby giant. That's just how they are born, they get shot out of a volcano as magma and land as old humans, eventually they go bald and start growing really big.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:38
|
|
|
It seems like they've already contradicted things Tolkien wrote and changed the TA. Wildly too. It looks as though they've written Celeborn and Arwen out of the story. I guess at some point they could have her come back to middle earth and reunite with her husband and daughter that absolutely not mention of has been made so far. If they have her meet Celeborn in the show that directly contradicts stuff Tolkien wrote.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:39
|
|
|
Eiba posted:In defense of the Balrog theory, which is not my favorite theory but I wouldn't rule out just yet: It would add pathos to the big flaming special effect. It's already weird and pointless. It's been a while since I've watched Fellowship, but there was no sense of kinship between Gandalf and the Balrog. There was no sense that the Balrog regarded the Hobbits as anything other that something else to destroy. Pathos would seem to require some kind of personal connection and there isn't one here. I mean, sure the Balrog was nice before it became a Balrog but once upon a time Ted Bundy was probably a really cute toddler before he murdered 30 women. Beyond that, Durin's Bane requires said bane to be way the gently caress underground when the Dwarves "delve too deeply" and wake its rear end up. It just seems like a lot of effort to delve into the backstory of a "character" that ultimately has only a minor effect on the overall story. It temporarily kills Gandalf, who then returns as Gandalf the White. It'd be like getting a ten episode miniseries following the orcs who ended up killing Boromir. Eiba posted:That's an interesting perspective I haven't heard articulated in this thread that much before. The way most people have explained it it seems like a point of pedantry, but this seems like there's more to it. What interactions specifically make it seem like Gandalf couldn't have been around for events in the second age? You say there were moments in the books that were built off of this ignorance? It works better for me that this isn't Gandalf... yet. That he's hanging around with the Harfoots learning language, food and how fires work while other folks are dealing with Sauron. That this version of Gandalf learns to love Nori and her family, to grieve when they eventually die and to extend that love to all the Harfoots/Hobbits. And not just love them but know them. Know their powerful strength of character, which is strong enough to resist the lure of the One Ring much longer than anyone else could - including himself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:46
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:I made a post earlier in the thread describing in brief what a Balrog is. Read that if you disagree with anything let me know. They're not just any old corrupted maiar they're primordial demons that were swayed to Melkor during the Ainulindale but trumping all that is the fact that this thing has the body of a man and it needs it. It eats. It needs a cloak to keep warm. It's an Istari OR it's a very sneaky primordial demon pretending to have lost its memory while eating snails and following around some Hobbits because I dunno. The bump on the head made it forget that it rebelled against God before the world was made? How many Balrogs are there and do they have wings?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:48
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:It seems like they've already contradicted things Tolkien wrote and changed the TA. Wildly too. It looks as though they've written Celeborn and Arwen out of the story. I guess at some point they could have her come back to middle earth and reunite with her husband and daughter that absolutely not mention of has been made so far. If they have her meet Celeborn in the show that directly contradicts stuff Tolkien wrote. When and where Galadriel meets Celeborn is not really a major plot point. For example, the show can easily have Celeborn reside in Eregion, where Galadriel meets him for the first time and falls in love to finally give her some semblance of a character arc. It will not be the same character arc she has in the books, but again, that has little to do with the major historical events like forging of the rings, fall of Numenor, and the wars against Sauron.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 02:57
|
|
|
Tuor killed five Balrogs. Gandalf one. Ecthelion three and Glorfindel one. I seem to recall that Feanor killed a lot, or maybe none. So there were more than ten.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:01
|
|
|
BoldFace posted:When and where Galadriel meets Celeborn is not really a major plot point. For example, the show can easily have Celeborn reside in Eregion, where Galadriel meets him for the first time and falls in love to finally give her some semblance of a character arc. It will not be the same character arc she has in the books, but again, that has little to do with the major historical events like forging of the rings, fall of Numenor, and the wars against Sauron. That was in response to the post above mine where they were saying that the deal Amazon made meant that the show couldn't contradict anything Tolkien wrote. Which I doubt is true since the show directly contradicts a lot of things with that being the most glaring example.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:02
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:That was in response to the post above mine where they were saying that the deal Amazon made meant that the show couldn't contradict anything Tolkien wrote. Which I doubt is true since the show directly contradicts a lot of things with that being the most glaring example. Honestly it seems like toward the end Tolkien contradicted a lot of what Tolkien wrote.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:04
|
|
|
No Mods No Masters posted:Tell me where is gandalf. For I much desire to watch scenes with him posts that you can hear
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:04
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:That was in response to the post above mine where they were saying that the deal Amazon made meant that the show couldn't contradict anything Tolkien wrote. Which I doubt is true since the show directly contradicts a lot of things with that being the most glaring example. i think the issue is they can't make it so an event did not happen or happened differently. Galadriel is blank slate in this period. Compressing time or rearranging order of events does not contradict it either.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:05
|
|
|
We've got the Arkenstone which some people incorrectly think is a silmaril. But we all accept that there are things beyond the One Ring and the Silmarils that can ... let's call it "create obsession". For Dwarves Sauron's rings are basically Andvaranaut without the downsides. But given their aberrant creation, a fruit of the earth can drive them mad. I don't know if Tolkein thought about wuxing but I'm sure the old Germans had a similar elemental theory. And the Dwarves have metal, a very special metal, that might also create an obsession in another being.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:05
|
|
|
They can just put off indefinitely that Galadriel has a daughter who is almost 3000 years old, doing her own thing. In season three we get a status check of Galadriel after she goes to get Nenya that she checks in with her daughter and sets her up with Elrond.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:06
|
|
|
covidstomper58 posted:Tuor killed five Balrogs. Gandalf one. Ecthelion three and Glorfindel one. I seem to recall that Feanor killed a lot, or maybe none. So there were more than ten. I imagine that is already more than Funky See Funky Do would accept even though it is supported by the text because there are "certainly not more than ten." I say they number in the thousands and that is also supported by the text!
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:07
|
|
|
2nd Amendment posted:I imagine that is already more than Funky See Funky Do would accept even though it is supported by the text because there are "certainly not more than ten."
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:13
|
|
|
Everyone posted:Honestly it seems like toward the end Tolkien contradicted a lot of what Tolkien wrote. I mean yeah, he was totally revising his cosmology to try and make it less mythological and "real" before he died. But at the end the day what's been published in the Silmarillion and I guess Unfinished Tales is what's canon. I have to assume his son collated all the notes and half finished stories and revisions faithfully and in keeping with his father's vision as best he could. The Histories of Middle-Earth and his letters are interesting read and insights into his writing process if you're a hardcore fan and but IMO they don't count as "lore".
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:15
|
|
|
covidstomper58 posted:You can just ask how many dragons there were. Go ahead, I dare you. Unless you are a sockpuppet: why the hostility?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:17
|
|
|
Sorry, I was displacing geekery with having a jape. It was not meant as hostile. Also, are you going to ask? Because it's over 10.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
2nd Amendment posted:I imagine that is already more than Funky See Funky Do would accept even though it is supported by the text because there are "certainly not more than ten." Both are true. There are simultaneously under ten Balrogs and thousands of them, because Melkor corrupted the Maia of Mathematics. . From above it looks like one of those impossible object illusions. Manwë banished them all below the earth because that bullshit was giving him a headache.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:21
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:I mean yeah, he was totally revising his cosmology to try and make it less mythological and "real" before he died. But at the end the day what's been published in the Silmarillion and I guess Unfinished Tales is what's canon. I have to assume his son collated all the notes and half finished stories and revisions faithfully and in keeping with his father's vision as best he could. the issue is all of that stuff has internal contradictions, and The Histories only provide more of them. He second guessed a ton of his own choices, fiddled with the cosmology as you said, and still never resolved a lot of things. thats why i don't have any true issue with shows like this in concept. in the end he had a grand idea, but it is was never finalized in "canon" beyond christopher piecing together scattered notes and drafts. this one can still gently caress it all up, so far its been good and fun, but im absolutely ready to just stop watching if it gets bad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:21
|
|
|
Funky See Funky Do posted:I mean yeah, he was totally revising his cosmology to try and make it less mythological and "real" before he died. But at the end the day what's been published in the Silmarillion and I guess Unfinished Tales is what's canon. I have to assume his son collated all the notes and half finished stories and revisions faithfully and in keeping with his father's vision as best he could. To me the conceit that Tolkein is an interpretor and not a creator is key to my engagement with Legendarium. He's the best (and only) source we have and he is a tertiary source. His opinions change but I argue the world he is interpreting doesn't. Anyone saying "the lore" without caveat is a lunatic and probably Protestant.
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:22
|
|
|
Killer robot posted:Both are true. There are simultaneously under ten Balrogs and thousands of them, because Melkor corrupted the Maia of Mathematics. . From above it looks like one of those impossible object illusions. Manwë banished them all below the earth because that bullshit was giving him a headache. While a shitpost this is better than anything Funky See Funky Do has posted in sincereity
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:23
|
|
|
covidstomper58 posted:Sorry, I was displacing geekery with having a jape. It was not meant as hostile. Also, are you going to ask? Because it's over 10. Cool! What's the relevance?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:43
|
|
|
2nd Amendment posted:Cool! What's the relevance?
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:44
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 8, 2024 01:32 |
|
|
Ain’t no man what can kill five balrogs 
|
|
#
?
Sep 13, 2022 03:50
|
|
