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blarzgh posted:Now ask about Esquire, Scrivener, Counselor and Solicitor ok yes tell us about those please then we can talk about star chamber and also whatever they called priests who conducted legal trials under church law, like the quakers used to do
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Sep 12, 2022 03:46
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We have tribal trials up here that use village elders in the place of lawyers. Good in theory, not so good in practice.
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Sep 12, 2022 04:18
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scriveners are best known for making errors
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Sep 12, 2022 05:38
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euphronius posted:A lawyer is anyone with a JD I suppose technically we only regulate unauthorized practice of law, and not just “calling yourself a lawyer or attorney but never offering legal advice”, but I sure would look askance at a JD calling themselves a lawyer without passing the bar exam. Anyway, I guess by your definitions, I’m an attorney but not a lawyer?
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Sep 12, 2022 07:08
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:
Norway, which practices a different type of legal system from common law usually called scandinavian tradition law, has jurists and advocates. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_law Jurist (kinda the same as lawyer) is a 5-year master, used to be a 6 year cand.mag. It's a qualification, but doesn't allow you to practice law in the sense of having clients, giving formal legal advice or appearing before courts. You're basically a case worker. Advocate is a license, it currently takes two years of training (working as a assistant attorney, prosecutor or judge (3 years)), a number of court appearances, a mandatory training course equivalent to about 6 months university education, and a bar exam. Then you apply for a license and get it if you pass the background checks. Then you can appear before any court except the supreme court.
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Sep 12, 2022 07:25
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Tunicate posted:scriveners are best known for making errors I would prefer not to, actually
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Sep 12, 2022 13:26
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There’s a fella in town whose business carries the sign “[NAME HERE], CJS, Appeals Research & Associates, Jurisprudence Complexities, Advocate for the Defense.”
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Sep 12, 2022 13:29
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Lawyer and attorney are different in that attorney is a thing that my clients from other countries sometimes call me and it sounds weird and I don't like it, whereas lawyer is my job. Now barrister and solicitor, that's a different can of worms.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:10
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Muir posted:
What do you do and where do you do it?
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Sep 12, 2022 15:19
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I have developed this visual aide to help understanding on the issue:
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Sep 12, 2022 15:21
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Organza Quiz posted:Lawyer and attorney are different in that attorney is a thing that my clients from other countries sometimes call me and it sounds weird and I don't like it, whereas lawyer is my job. Now barrister and solicitor, that's a different can of worms. Barrister makes yer a coffee, a solicitizen is a free man on the land, travelling.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:23
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In FL, lawyer means someone who is an active member of the bar. There is no distinction between attorney and lawyer. If you simply have a JD in Fl, you are neither and should not hold yourself out as either. The most I can say is I’m an unlicensed attorney or former lawyer. I cannot call myself either since I left the practice and my license is no longer active.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:52
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In theory there’s a distinction between the two in the US, but in practice they’re used interchangeably.
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Sep 12, 2022 15:55
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euphronius posted:What do you do and where do you do it? I am a patent attorney in the United States. I am a member of the California bar but did not go to law school. California and three other states (Washington, Vermont, Virginia) still have pure apprenticeship routes to becoming eligible for the bar examination. In California it’s called law office study (https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Education/Legal-Education/Law-Office-or-Judges-Chamber). So in those four states at least, the Venn diagram isn’t entirely accurate. More broadly, I agree with the above couple of posters that whatever technical distinction there may have been, attorney and lawyer now mean “licensed member of the bar” interchangeably. I know several JDs who aren’t members of the bar and none of them would think to call themselves lawyers. Muir fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 16:43
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Ok you are a very edge case . You still studied law tho in a formal, tho antiquated, manner tho and that is enough to be a lawyer. So I will rephrase for you: A lawyer is anyone with a JD (or a JD equivalent though antiquated practices recognized in some jurisdictions) euphronius fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Sep 12, 2022 |
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Sep 12, 2022 16:52
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euphronius posted:I have developed this visual aide to help understanding on the issue:
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Sep 12, 2022 18:30
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Foxfire_ posted:Please add Tree Law, Tree Lawyers, and the Lorax to this visual aide But the real question here is: is a Tree Lawyer anything like a Lawyer Dog?
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Sep 12, 2022 18:48
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Organza Quiz posted:Lawyer and attorney are different in that attorney is a thing that my clients from other countries sometimes call me and it sounds weird and I don't like it, whereas lawyer is my job. Now barrister and solicitor, that's a different can of worms. Does the US actually have anything equivalent to solicitors, i.e. people who can do every kind of lawyerish work except for actually representing people in court?
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Sep 13, 2022 02:34
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Thuryl posted:Does the US actually have anything equivalent to solicitors, i.e. people who can do every kind of lawyerish work except for actually representing people in court? Nope. We have plenty of lawyers who, *in practice*, operate in this way, but no official status for it - they could still in theory represent folks in court, they just don’t want to/aren’t good at it/etc.
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Sep 13, 2022 02:39
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Thuryl posted:Does the US actually have anything equivalent to solicitors, i.e. people who can do every kind of lawyerish work except for actually representing people in court?
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Sep 13, 2022 02:49
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Ham Equity posted:Depending on the state, there's a lot of legal work that can be done by paralegals, but I'm sure that's also the case in the commonwealth. But not under their own auspices, still under the umbrella of a licensed attorney. There are some explorations and maybe even pilot programs looking at letting paralegals provide certain services directly, like the expansion of the roles of nurses and physicians’ assistants, but nothing more than that yet AFAIK.
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Sep 13, 2022 03:56
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Kalman posted:Nope. We have plenty of lawyers who, *in practice*, operate in this way, but no official status for it - they could still in theory represent folks in court, they just don’t want to/aren’t good at it/etc. Interestingly in my jurisdiction all lawyers are admitted as both solicitor and barrister automatically, so it's basically the same where every lawyer is allowed to represent people in court but some simply choose not to. Except then we still have the separate concept of a barrister as someone who takes a special oath, practices alone, is only allowed to turn down cases in specific circumstances etc. so I am technically a barrister but I would never call myself that because I'm not that kind of barrister. It's weird.
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Sep 13, 2022 05:10
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Muir posted:I am a patent attorney in the United States. I am a member of the California bar but did not go to law school. California and three other states (Washington, Vermont, Virginia) still have pure apprenticeship routes to becoming eligible for the bar examination. In California it’s called law office study (https://www.calbar.ca.gov/Admissions/Requirements/Education/Legal-Education/Law-Office-or-Judges-Chamber). So in those four states at least, the Venn diagram isn’t entirely accurate. Are you one of the weirdos who gets a graduate degree in a STEM field and then becomes a patent troll
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Sep 13, 2022 05:28
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I'm a lawyer but not a legal practitioner, which is the difference in my jurisdiction between "graduated law school, was admitted" and "can also actually represent clients in court".
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Sep 13, 2022 06:00
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Are you one of the weirdos who gets a graduate degree in a STEM field and then becomes a patent troll I and almost every patent attorney I know followed the trajectory of: 1. Get a Ph.D. 2. Realize you don’t want to stay doing research 3. Find out about this patent law thing 4. Get hired at a law firm and learn patent law 5. Pass the patent bar and become a patent agent 6. Go to law school (or be weird like me and don’t go to law school, but I don’t know anyone else who did that) 7. Be a patent attorney Not sure what you mean about being a patent troll. I’ve only worked in big law and in biotech startups, so unless you consider all patent holders to be trolls, then no.
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Sep 13, 2022 06:51
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Muir posted:Not sure what you mean about being a patent troll. I’ve only worked in big law and in biotech startups, so unless you consider all patent holders to be trolls, then no. im just being glib and making the same crack I do to everyone who does the PhD-JD thing
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Sep 13, 2022 07:07
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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:im just being glib and making the same crack I do to everyone who does the PhD-JD thing Gotcha. Then yes!
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Sep 13, 2022 07:10
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Muir posted:But not under their own auspices, still under the umbrella of a licensed attorney. There are some explorations and maybe even pilot programs looking at letting paralegals provide certain services directly, like the expansion of the roles of nurses and physicians’ assistants, but nothing more than that yet AFAIK. Are the number of lawyers minted per year artificially constrained like the ama does for physicians?
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Sep 13, 2022 11:14
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There is no absolute gate in the number of new lawyers per year. It is gated by privilege and other pressures . More so recently
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Sep 13, 2022 11:49
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Azuth0667 posted:Are the number of lawyers minted per year artificially constrained like the ama does for physicians? No so there's a booming business in terrible law schools that produce nearly unemployable graduates.
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Sep 13, 2022 12:00
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evilweasel posted:No so there's a booming business in terrible law schools that produce nearly unemployable graduates. You can always spot the Harvard Law grad
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Sep 13, 2022 13:07
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Azuth0667 posted:Are the number of lawyers minted per year artificially constrained like the ama does for physicians? Lawyer's guild is not powerful enough to do this, in part because the very senior members (partners) benefit from having cheap labor whereas senior doctors just get more senior, but not an ownership stake in the hospital.
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Sep 13, 2022 15:31
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Azuth0667 posted:Are the number of lawyers minted per year artificially constrained like the ama does for physicians? the ABA got sued for antitrust for trying this
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Sep 13, 2022 19:42
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Could you imagine if the ABA had the power of the AMA?
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Sep 13, 2022 20:38
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evilweasel posted:No so there's a booming business in terrible law schools that produce nearly unemployable graduates. Hence the distinction between the T14(?) And everything else? With the amount the AMA cries I am surprised how powerful they are. E: wasn't physician ownership of a hospital done away with when hipaa happened?
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Sep 13, 2022 21:26
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many surgeons own stakes in what might as well be a hospital, usually called surgery centers and located in a building full of other doctors and poo poo i assume hospital has some statutory definition and there are limits on it, i.e., https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Fraud-and-Abuse/PhysicianSelfReferral/Physician_Owned_Hospitals
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Sep 13, 2022 22:03
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Physicians definitely often own the businesses they work for and the buildings they work in. What more you need to be a "hospital" is beyond my interest.
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Sep 14, 2022 02:37
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Grip it and rip it posted:Physicians definitely often own the businesses they work for and the buildings they work in. Not really, they often run a practice out of a hospital but even then they are often not even employed by the hospital. ER physicians being a common exception, in that they are sometimes employed directly by the hospital (but not always, and maybe not even most of the time?). What you’re probably thinking of would simply be a clinic. I guess think of the hospital more as a medical mall… Bad Munki fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 02:39
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The capital difference between owning a hospital and law firm are pretty stark.
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Sep 14, 2022 03:21
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Bad Munki posted:Not really, they often run a practice out of a hospital but even then they are often not even employed by the hospital. ER physicians being a common exception, in that they are sometimes employed directly by the hospital (but not always, and maybe not even most of the time?). What you’re probably thinking of would simply be a clinic. I think that’s his point. They own their practices and the buildings those practices are in, they’re often not employees of hospitals (they just have privileges). But many doctors (especially surgeons) also own imaging centers and surgery centers where they make money off of the hospital charges in addition to their services.
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Sep 14, 2022 04:25
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