FINAL FANTASY XIV: WoL Makeover Station (Patch 6.55) (DT Early Access 6/28)

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > FINAL FANTASY XIV: WoL Makeover Station (Patch 6.55) (DT Early Access 6/28)

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No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

Positionals on most melee classes bug me conceptually because it just doesn't seem in keeping with the class fantasy. On a ninja, sure, but why are monks or samurai optimising their techniques for hitting their enemies in rhe backs and sides? That doesn't seem very valourous...

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:12

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:18

Hunter Noventa: Apr 21, 2010

No Dignity posted:

Positionals on most melee classes bug me conceptually because it just doesn't seem in keeping with the class fantasy. On a ninja, sure, but why are monks or samurai optimising their techniques for hitting their enemies in rhe backs and sides? That doesn't seem very valourous...

Not to mention its just not possible to use them 99.99 percent of the time in solo content.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:18

Vitamean: May 31, 2012

Jabbering Idiot posted:

I don't think the 8-man situation you describe applies here, because this isn't some kind of aggro management on the level of Shirk among dps. The only dps action to be something like that was Shadewalker on NIN, and yes, you could use it maliciously the same way you can still use Rescue and Shirk maliciously. Most jobs could manage their own threat somewhat by reducing their output (Quelling Strikes, Diversion) or by dumping half of it (Shroud of Saints, Elusive Jump).

And in 24 mans, in a perfect world, the tanks don't die. If they do, everyone can still perfectly use their threat mitigating actions the whole time and have the threat order be unchanged, so the top dps player still eats it. If that seems unlikely, then the players that are aware that the tank has died and the boss is running rampant may use their tools and maybe not die for a couple seconds. It's not some cold calculus or Lord of the Flies situation, it's just hot potato for a few seconds until someone puts the oven mitts back on.

I'll grant you that there's little overall gain for the group; the only gain to be had is if dps are sharing the auto attacks by dropping their threat (and the boss's attention to the next dps) long enough for a healer to hardcast a rez on a tank. This was possible, and it wasn't that difficult to do, either. It's just impossible now. It was a loss.

Most likely they made the change to make enmity simple because of the friction between "optimal damage" tanks versus groups that didn't know or didn't care to use threat tools across more casual content, and simply removed those actions to cull buttons, but you could simply not put your threat tools on your bars nowadays and it'd be fine if you wanted the space, and they could have left those options as additional affects on buttons that remained (Elusive Jump; Lucid Dreaming).

The change to Tank's threat made the game easier and the role more approachable, but the change to everyone else's threat tools did not assist or affect this in any way. It just removed options from players in this case.

I feel like ranged dps as a whole, and especially MCH, should be much stronger. They've said it's a tax because of their mobility, but like, tanks and melee get more and more gap closers every expansion, they have True North nowadays and fewer positionals overall, bosses more often than not position themselves, have GIGANTIC hitboxes, and are much more carefully designed to allow for 100% melee uptime, so what's the benefit of even being ranged? Half the time ranged gotta stand close to the boss to get heals anyways. Even BLM and especially SMN have been getting more free movement every expansion, but for the most part they're above par, right?

I think there was more to be said when all ranged provided MP/TP restoration, damage buffs for the whole raid etc, but now they only have their Shield Samba/Troubadour/Tactician as a "role." My only issue with MCH as it plays is that Heat Blast and the oGCDs are unfriendly to ping.

e:fb by Countblanc

Also, I think the stat changes benefitted Melee jobs the most, and it benefitted BRD/DNC (providers of DH/Crit to the party) way more than it benefitted MCH (Reassemble to capitalize).

hmm okay I didn't read it but I see a lot of words

Vitamean fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Sep 13, 2022

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:19

Firebert: Aug 16, 2004

A big reason why MCH (also RDM) is in such a crappy place is that they have devolved job design to the point where no one truly brings anything unique and you can play every job on the same character. So if you are in a serious raid group, there's no real reason to bring the worst job (and there will always be a worst job). Even if the dps variance is small, the fights are so long that a 500 dps difference ends up being huge. MCH still should get some extra utility, the lack of anything other than the standard aiming role actions is egregious.

Honestly, the bigger problem is that bringing more than one ranged and one magic dps is very suboptimal. We ran BLM + SMN/RDM for all of Shadowbringers, and that feels unthinkable where roles are tuned now.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:24

GiantRockFromSpace: Mar 1, 2019; Just Cram It

Finally, got enough materials to get the final renovation on all my buildings. All I need is to grab a bit more for the mammet tools and the final landmark (once I'm close to Rank 9) and I'll only have to gather mats for my crafts and be free. No more 65 logs per level :negative:

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:29

Trash Ops: Jun 19, 2012; im having fun, isnt everyone else?

the giant hitboxes loving suck

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:50

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

No Dignity posted:

Positionals on most melee classes bug me conceptually because it just doesn't seem in keeping with the class fantasy. On a ninja, sure, but why are monks or samurai optimising their techniques for hitting their enemies in rhe backs and sides? That doesn't seem very valourous...

Samurai slipping past an enemy to strike them from the back is a pretty common cinematic thing

Monks are flippy and agile so they are constantly moving and striking

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:51

hazardousmouse: Dec 17, 2010

Why the gently caress would we be valorous? Punch em in the loving balls, give em the ol dick twist!

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:53

Red Metal: Oct 23, 2012; Let me tell you about Homestuck; Fun Shoe

No Dignity posted:

Positionals on most melee classes bug me conceptually because it just doesn't seem in keeping with the class fantasy. On a ninja, sure, but why are monks or samurai optimising their techniques for hitting their enemies in rhe backs and sides? That doesn't seem very valourous...

Monks are hitting pressure points, hth

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:54

ZenMasterBullshit: Nov 2, 2011; Restaurant de Nouvelles "À Table" Proudly Presents:
A Climactic Encounter Ending on 1 Negate and a Dream

No Dignity posted:

Positionals on most melee classes bug me conceptually because it just doesn't seem in keeping with the class fantasy. On a ninja, sure, but why are monks or samurai optimising their techniques for hitting their enemies in rhe backs and sides? That doesn't seem very valourous...

Are you asking why monks do a lot of ducking and weaving in a fight.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:57

Kagaya Homoraisan: Aug 28, 2019; You say, run away
Instead, you get scared
For the way that I feel
Drops out into all this disorder

Jabbering Idiot posted:

I don't think the 8-man situation you describe applies here, because this isn't some kind of aggro management on the level of Shirk among dps. The only dps action to be something like that was Shadewalker on NIN, and yes, you could use it maliciously the same way you can still use Rescue and Shirk maliciously. Most jobs could manage their own threat somewhat by reducing their output (Quelling Strikes, Diversion) or by dumping half of it (Shroud of Saints, Elusive Jump).

And in 24 mans, in a perfect world, the tanks don't die. If they do, everyone can still perfectly use their threat mitigating actions the whole time and have the threat order be unchanged, so the top dps player still eats it. If that seems unlikely, then the players that are aware that the tank has died and the boss is running rampant may use their tools and maybe not die for a couple seconds. It's not some cold calculus or Lord of the Flies situation, it's just hot potato for a few seconds until someone puts the oven mitts back on.

I'll grant you that there's little overall gain for the group; the only gain to be had is if dps are sharing the auto attacks by dropping their threat (and the boss's attention to the next dps) long enough for a healer to hardcast a rez on a tank. This was possible, and it wasn't that difficult to do, either. It's just impossible now. It was a loss.

Most likely they made the change to make enmity simple because of the friction between "optimal damage" tanks versus groups that didn't know or didn't care to use threat tools across more casual content, and simply removed those actions to cull buttons, but you could simply not put your threat tools on your bars nowadays and it'd be fine if you wanted the space, and they could have left those options as additional affects on buttons that remained (Elusive Jump; Lucid Dreaming).

The change to Tank's threat made the game easier and the role more approachable, but the change to everyone else's threat tools did not assist or affect this in any way. It just removed options from players in this case.

I feel like ranged dps as a whole, and especially MCH, should be much stronger. They've said it's a tax because of their mobility, but like, tanks and melee get more and more gap closers every expansion, they have True North nowadays and fewer positionals overall, bosses more often than not position themselves, have GIGANTIC hitboxes, and are much more carefully designed to allow for 100% melee uptime, so what's the benefit of even being ranged? Half the time ranged gotta stand close to the boss to get heals anyways. Even BLM and especially SMN have been getting more free movement every expansion, but for the most part they're above par, right?

I think there was more to be said when all ranged provided MP/TP restoration, damage buffs for the whole raid etc, but now they only have their Shield Samba/Troubadour/Tactician as a "role." My only issue with MCH as it plays is that Heat Blast and the oGCDs are unfriendly to ping.

e:fb by Countblanc

Also, I think the stat changes benefitted Melee jobs the most, and it benefitted BRD/DNC (providers of DH/Crit to the party) way more than it benefitted MCH (Reassemble to capitalize).

didnt read :clint:

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:57

Hogama: Sep 3, 2011

XIV is incredibly anime. This includes the bits where attacks are hitting basically everywhere at all sides faster than the eye can follow*.
*from the viewpoint of the one getting hit, at least

# ? Sep 13, 2022 21:58

No Dignity: Oct 15, 2007

ZenMasterBullshit posted:

Are you asking why monks do a lot of ducking and weaving in a fight.

It seems to me more like they're punching someone in the back of the head whilst they're distracted

Monking:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6iyOwyGTYmo&t=4s

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:05

Runa: Feb 13, 2011

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7bqqFPBls0

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:08

TheWorldsaStage: Sep 10, 2020

GiantRockFromSpace posted:

Finally, got enough materials to get the final renovation on all my buildings. All I need is to grab a bit more for the mammet tools and the final landmark (once I'm close to Rank 9) and I'll only have to gather mats for my crafts and be free. No more 65 logs per level

You're almost there friend. Soon you'll be cruising everywhere on your bike making bank

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:09

GiantRockFromSpace: Mar 1, 2019; Just Cram It

TheWorldsaStage posted:

You're almost there friend. Soon you'll be cruising everywhere on your bike making bank

Until I buy everything I want and abandon my island to rot until the next update :v:

I also managed to catch a few more tare animals and an auroch... and realized I'm gonna have to abandon some buddies for the all-rare pasture and now I feel bad.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:15

Vitamean: May 31, 2012

you can get some decent stores of crafting materia over time if you keep up with island exports after buying the one time items

you don't gotta min-max it but even just 10k/wk would get you 13 grade IXs

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:20

Oneiros: Jan 12, 2007

make feint generate emnity, i wanna fight the tank for aggro

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:22

Electric Phantasm: Apr 7, 2011; YOSPOS

Make a positional for the front and it does even more damage if you're between the boss and the tank.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:25

Antivehicular: Dec 30, 2011; I wanna sing one for the cars
That are right now headed silent down the highway
And it's dark and there is nobody driving And something has got to give

Electric Phantasm posted:

Make a positional for the front and it does even more damage if you're between the boss and the tank.

I need a SAM positional that requires you to actively be in a buster cleave AoE

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:27

YggiDee: Sep 12, 2007; WASP CREW

Being first on the enmity list should provide a damage buff, so DPSs are trying to convince the tank to fit shirk + provoke around their burst phases.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:29

ImpAtom: May 24, 2007

YggiDee posted:

Being first on the enmity list should provide a damage buff, so DPSs are trying to convince the tank to fit shirk + provoke around their burst phases.

No being last should give you a special duty action which massively buffs your DPS but massively debuffs whoever is in first.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:35

YggiDee: Sep 12, 2007; WASP CREW

The Shell of Blue Kojin

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:36

Hyper Inferno: Jun 11, 2015

Electric Phantasm posted:

Make a positional for the front and it does even more damage if you're between the boss and the tank.

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Sneak_Attack

# ? Sep 13, 2022 22:52

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Better enmity management on dps is pointless, and in the context of say, the top dps surviving longer, the big issue is it really only works until you leave a healer holding the hot potato. Which you will, and then the rezzer is dead and you actually have now caused a wipe.

Because healers routinely are 4-6 on aggro lists. Especially when things go wrong. Healing generates more enmity than damage.

The real answer is give melee (the role most likely to eat it if a tank dies) better survivability tools. Let Samurai Third Eye be a bigger percent damage reduction than 10% etc.

If the goal is to make scenarios where a tank drops survivable by skilled players.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:07

Hyper Inferno: Jun 11, 2015

In the leaked tooltips pre-Stormblood, Third Eye was in fact a 20% damage reduction instead of the 10% it is now.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:25

Electric Phantasm: Apr 7, 2011; YOSPOS

Hyper Inferno posted:

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Sneak_Attack

God drat it I feel so dumb, I thought this was back positional this whole time.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:34

Tamba: Apr 5, 2010

Got the item for the tomestone weapon from P6S, but it might actually be worse than the 615 Ex trial one (at least for Sage).
Guess I'll sit on it and hope I can steal the upgrade mat whenever we manage to clear P7S .

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:35

Orcs and Ostriches: Aug 26, 2010; The Great Twist

Electric Phantasm posted:

God drat it I feel so dumb, I thought this was back positional this whole time.

It is. This was an older version. I'm not even sure how old because I don't remember it.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:36

Electric Phantasm: Apr 7, 2011; YOSPOS

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

It is. This was an older version. I'm not even sure how old because I don't remember it.

Okay so I have been reading the tool tips right, phew.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:37

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

man the servers have felt real bad the last few days. just did my weekly abyssos clears and i had over 20 4-shot Wildfires due to how bad the lag was, i basically never get any normally.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:46

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

I feel there's an argument for aggro reduction abilities *outside* of party stuff, when you're just in the wild and accidentally pull way more enemies than you mean to.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:53

iPodschun: Dec 29, 2004; Sherlock House

Electric Phantasm posted:

God drat it I feel so dumb, I thought this was back positional this whole time.

Trick Attack is a back positional. Sneak Attack is what that link is for, and it's no longer in the game.

I guess it was a front positional because nobody expects a Sneak Attack from the front?

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:55

Rynoto: Apr 27, 2009; It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

Lord_Magmar posted:

Because healers routinely are 4-6 on aggro lists. Especially when things go wrong. Healing generates more enmity than damage.

While I have fond memories of FFXI one of those I don't miss is stripping aggro from the tank because of AoE healing and the massive enmity spike from high level heals in general.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:56

Hyper Inferno: Jun 11, 2015

NIN used to have two attacks out of Hide/Suiton. Trick Attack, which has stuck around and is the back positional and Sneak Attack which was learned earlier and has the front positional. Sneak Attack has been removed because Trick was pretty much always superior.

I feel like the names got switched though. It's more "sneaky" to hit someone from the back while being more brazen and being up front makes me think that there's an additional "trick" up the NIN's sleeves for risking themselves like that.

# ? Sep 13, 2022 23:56

Hogama: Sep 3, 2011

Sneak Attack's main purpose was being a higher potency attack for situations that you couldn't Trick Attack, i.e. solo fighting. Though it didn't stop Ninjas from flipping in front of boss cleaves for some mysterious reason.

# ? Sep 14, 2022 00:00

Vermain: Sep 5, 2006

Re: Island Sanctuary, it looks like the spreadsheet updated to recommend the Butter -> Relish -> Jam cycle, so I think it's best to go with that if you were a Sauerkraut holdout previously.

# ? Sep 14, 2022 00:01

Grayshift: May 31, 2013

I do not need a good reason to craft stuff that uses less rock salt.

# ? Sep 14, 2022 00:04

Lord_Magmar: Feb 24, 2015; "Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"

Maxwell Lord posted:

I feel there's an argument for aggro reduction abilities *outside* of party stuff, when you're just in the wild and accidentally pull way more enemies than you mean to.

They wouldn't help if you're solo, because no amount of enmity reduction would remove an active enemy from combat.

You kind of just have to run far enough from their spawn that they give up.

Rynoto posted:

While I have fond memories of FFXI one of those I don't miss is stripping aggro from the tank because of AoE healing and the massive enmity spike from high level heals in general.

Yeah, realistically any discussion of Enmity should be rooted in Healers and Tanks. DPS don't need to care, because if a tank dies and they're the target it is better than the healer being the target. Simple as that.

# ? Sep 14, 2022 00:08

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# ? May 23, 2024 12:18

Chillgamesh: Jul 29, 2014

Rynoto posted:

While I have fond memories of FFXI one of those I don't miss is stripping aggro from the tank because of AoE healing and the massive enmity spike from high level heals in general.

It was cool that WHM got an ability called Martyr, because that's basically what happened if you ever had to use Benediction

# ? Sep 14, 2022 00:32

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Video Games > The MMO HMO > FINAL FANTASY XIV: WoL Makeover Station (Patch 6.55) (DT Early Access 6/28)

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