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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i wonder if anyone actually likes phoenix echo? I mean she'd have to do something to get me to feel one way or another about her. So far all she's done is become the Phoenix and appear in the background. I think she had a mini but all I heard is it was mediocre so again, hard to judge either way. BrianWilly posted:The much more severe example would be Quentin, who -- pre-HoXPoX -- was just this smug little prick who never had to work for a thing in his life and still ended up somehow being some perfect Phoenix host -- no training, no journey, nuthin' -- because his omeganess is just so omega. One of the best parts of Ben Percy's X-Force has been seeing Quire get knocked down a peg or ten to become an actually decent character, and even then I don't know that it would feel right for him to achieve Phoenixdom as he stands. I mean I suppose you could say that but his whole arc back in Wolverine & the X-Men was about how he was unintentionally growing into a good person with friends despite all his best efforts to be a little poo poo. When he firsts sees himself as the Phoenix with the X-Men he hates it because he doesn't want to accept that he could be a good team member. I guess it's not an arc about training but it's disingenuous to say that Quentin hasn't gone through a journey. If anything the worst thing any writers have done since then (and arguably even into the Krakoa age) is kind of reversing that and making him a little poo poo again until he starts trying to be a better person (again) for whichever Cuckoo he was dating I forget. You're not wrong though that the many deaths of Quentin Quire is a great running gag. TwoPair fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Sep 10, 2022 |
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Sep 10, 2022 04:00
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i only read the first issue of that mini, but echo phoenix did do one thing. she tried to fight street level crime with her cosmic firebird powers and it went horribly wrong in about the ways you'd expect. it was very funny.
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Sep 10, 2022 05:45
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Internet Wizard posted:My main concern with the “losing humanity while embracing unlimited power” thing is that, well, that’s Dr. Manhattan. Not to say in any way that it can’t be interesting or well done by somebody else, but those are some mighty big footsteps to follow in. I also feel like "unlimited power leading to loss of humanity" works better with white cis men. Partly because doing that story line with others tends to have the implication of "this is why they can't have too much power", and partly because it just makes sense that someone already born into privilege would be more easily corrupted or become more distanced if they get even more power. At least with cosmic power. I know there are many decent stories of underprivileged people losing touch with their roots when they achieve more general success. Anyway, my ideal setup for Phoenix would be Jean to be the main one, with Rachel having naturally inherited a portion of the power. Hope and Quintin, in that order, would be the best backups if something happens to those two. Anyone else should be ill fitting and temporary hosts that came about due to odd circumstances.
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Sep 12, 2022 16:59
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I do think that there’s an interesting story that could be told with Hope and her past as the “mutant messiah” and her current role as the core of the Five, and therefore the mutant most responsible for the ongoing death and rebirth of the mutant populace. Maybe it’s just too on the nose for her to also be in touch with the cosmic representation of death/rebirth cycles. It also seems like her adoption into the Summers-Grey family has been largely dropped/ignored other than the occasional moment between her and Cable. I’m not saying she has to be having family dinner on the moon every Sunday night, but it was a little weird when Jean and Scott were putting a lot of work into establishing a more secure relationship with their large adult children during the Hickman X-Men run and their adopted granddaughter was completely absent.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:21
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I still kinda want Hope to follow up on that bit from the Fraction/Portacio run on Uncanny where she met her biological grandmother.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:35
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Internet Wizard posted:It also seems like her adoption into the Summers-Grey family has been largely dropped/ignored other than the occasional moment between her and Cable. I’m not saying she has to be having family dinner on the moon every Sunday night, but it was a little weird when Jean and Scott were putting a lot of work into establishing a more secure relationship with their large adult children during the Hickman X-Men run and their adopted granddaughter was completely absent. To be fair, she has a very time demanding job on Krakoa, and I imagine it would be awkward having dinner with the man that recently killed your adopted father, even if that man is also a time displaced version of that father.
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Sep 12, 2022 17:39
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I apologize for the continuing wordvomits but apparently I'm not done rambling about this. Again, I wanna make it clear that I don't think there's a 1:1 ratio correlation between the amount of power you have and the amount of humanity/empathy you lose. That's definitely a very Dr. Manhattan way of seeing things and it's dumb; the whole point is that characters like Jean might struggle with retaining their humanity with all that power at their fingertips, but at the end of the day their humanity will still win out; the whole point of her being White Phoenix at the end of Here Comes Tomorrow is to show how much her humanity affects her, even as this godlike nexus being. That said, I think there still should be a struggle, because otherwise there's just no conflict, no development, no gravitas to the journey. If this kind of power all just comes so easily to the characters with no danger or drawbacks, then what does it say about the character? Nothing, really. We just end up with another old-school Quentin who was just all-powerful and all Phoenixy for no particular reason. On the other hand, a character becomes all the more likable and impressive when they control their powers, all the while retaining their humanity, if we know that their powers are hard to control and can make them feel detached from humanity. Superman works under the same principle. And anyway, at the end of the day, the idea of limitless cosmic powers coming with some drawbacks has been such a recurring thing with Jean and Bobby specifically through the years that it feels wrong to just ignore it.  (Oh, Moira  )(The irony of that scene, of course, is that Jean is proving her humanity simply by worrying about not having it. A god wouldn't care about being a god, but in the same page that Jean mentions not feeling human, she displays some of the most human insecurities and frailties of all.) All of which reminds me of the other reason Jean and Rachel feel so right as Phoenix in ways that other characters haven't shown, which is that the metaphor of the Phoenix simply works so well in their cases, as expressions of their inner self and their inner passions. We all know how it works with Jean, it's been explored at length in all the good stories; Jean presents as the quintessential good girl, the archetypal superheroine, the model student and teacher, the proper supportive girlfriend and wife and mother. But like...she's also not. She can be those things, but she's also someone much wilder and more dangerous; she has a temper, she has a vindictive nature, and she's frankly much more of an rear end in a top hat than people usually think! And it simply fits so well that it's this side of Jean that Xavier has always repressed, that Scott was always wary of (at least he used to be, in the past). But those are all parts of Jean as well, important parts that she shouldn't just hide away, because she's just not fully Jean without also being that wilder, darker person. And the Phoenix works so well as a manifestation of that other symbolic aspect of Jean that I would go as far as to say she simply hasn't felt complete again as a character since she came back without it. And as for Rachel? Well, we can all see now that all along the Phoenix represented the side of her that was a raging homosexual.  Seriously though, where is this symbolism when it comes to other hosts? What is the symbolism, really? Echo generally comes across as a sullen, repressed character and she's still pretty much a sullen, repressed character now, even as the Phoenix. There's no story here, no character revelation; all it is is a fiery video game power-up. Hope, on the other hand, was a rough-and-tumble take-no-poo poo kind of girl right from the start so her being Phoenix seems like it was just...more of the same? What is the secret fire here that's supposed to be revealed? Like, of all the non-Grey characters who might be Phoenix, I agree Hope would be the most appropriate, byt even then I wouldn't know what the story here is supposed to be besides that she's the mutant Messiah so she's also the Phoenix I guess.
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Sep 12, 2022 20:50
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Agree 100%. Also that is a great panel, at some point I need to re-read new x-men between Giant Sized and Dark Phoenix, it's been a long time.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:11
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BrianWilly posted:I apologize for the continuing wordvomits but apparently I'm not done rambling about this. This makes me think that a Hope/Phoenix story that flips the normal Phoenix story script would be a cool angle. Like instead of having the Phoenix cause a caring and compassionate person like Jean embrace her wild and destructive impulses as well, Hope is already fully willing to be destructive and act out against overbearing control/structure. So have the Phoenix bring out the caring and compassionate side of her, and maybe explore the damage that growing up with no friends in a radioactive wasteland can do to a person. The more I think about the Phoenix and the stories that can be told about it, it becomes weirder and weirder for it to be an Avengers thing right now instead.
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Sep 12, 2022 21:57
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fortunately, aaron isn't interested in actually doing anything with phoenix. i think the phoenix might have been asleep this entire run.
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Sep 12, 2022 22:05
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Internet Wizard posted:I do think that there’s an interesting story that could be told with Hope and her past as the “mutant messiah” and her current role as the core of the Five, and therefore the mutant most responsible for the ongoing death and rebirth of the mutant populace. Maybe it’s just too on the nose for her to also be in touch with the cosmic representation of death/rebirth cycles. Hope wasn't ever really close with anyone outside of Cable. And I think when all that was set up, Teen Cable and Hope hadn't really talked and hashed things out. But now that he's Basic Cable again, they did have an extra room open I believe, so she can chill there if she wants. Though they also said the five don't want to be separated from each other for too long, so maybe she just doesn't want to go there and be away from them.
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Sep 12, 2022 23:29
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Gillen says to read X-Men Red #6 *before* AXE Judgment #4
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Sep 14, 2022 14:11
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Today's Red... drat. poo poo rules. Also, I've gotten through the first 3 issues of the current Marauders run (via Unlimited) and I'm not sure I understand the hate. It's been pretty fun, and the story is no less confusing than anything Arrako-based. I am, admittedly, a sucker for anything Shi'ar related though. And 2 issues into Legion of X and that book is much better than I expected. I shouldn't be surprised as it was issue 3 that went to poo poo for WoX for me, but I'm enjoying the mystery of the lost god (and the fun Arrako perception of religion) and the skingrabber thing. My theory is: "Blindfold" is actually the trickster god, as it seems only David can see her and the excuse about her body not being ready or whatever is totally bullshit.
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Sep 14, 2022 17:58
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Endless Mike posted:Gillen says to read X-Men Red #6 *before* AXE Judgment #4 why did they stop putting these notes inside the books themselves
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Sep 14, 2022 18:09
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I was going to say they *do* but they put them at the end, but the list in the back has AXE before Red, so who fuckin' knows.
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Sep 14, 2022 18:14
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There was one week with I don't remember which three books, but the order was different in two of them, and they've also missed a lot of dates.
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Sep 14, 2022 18:23
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i guess red does tell you it's before axe...6 pages in lol
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Sep 14, 2022 18:44
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I think if we're being really honest, the answer is "you should read these in this order but it's not really going to hurt if you don't"
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Sep 14, 2022 18:45
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i mean sure you can, but if the writer wants you to read it in a certain order there's no sense in intentionally reading out of order
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Sep 14, 2022 18:52
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Man what did Captain America do to piss that Celestial off? e: Really though the Thor judgement really shows how profoundly loving stupid you have to be to let an omnipotent being be designed in part by Tony Stark and Mr Sinister. Mulva fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 19:00
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Gillen is doing a really good job of keeping the tension high in this crossover. The heroes keep technically succeeding with each mad-dash plan, only for the ultimate stakes to remain unchanged. I have no idea where this ride will end up, but I'm having a blast getting there.
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Sep 14, 2022 19:48
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Mulva posted:Man what did Captain America do to piss that Celestial off?
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Sep 14, 2022 19:51
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Xavier's judgment was brutal and accurate though. And probably not how he sees himself.
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Sep 14, 2022 19:52
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glitchwraith posted:Gillen is doing a really good job of keeping the tension high in this crossover. The heroes keep technically succeeding with each mad-dash plan, only for the ultimate stakes to remain unchanged. I have no idea where this ride will end up, but I'm having a blast getting there. Seems this Gillen fella's pretty good at writing the comics
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Sep 14, 2022 20:18
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goddamn, red owns.
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Sep 14, 2022 20:35
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Oh that Xavier panel in AXE is omega-level COLD. ETA: So... AXE is paced awkwardly in my opinion. The stuff that comes out of Red is started and finished in a couple of pages. It makes all of that feel less important? Why even have that threat if it's so quickly fixed? It feels like it's just something for Ewing to do in Red (which, again, has been great) during a crossover that has no major effect on the crossover. danbanana fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Sep 14, 2022 |
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Sep 14, 2022 22:30
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Yeah felt like the Uranos thing was too quick. I feel bringing him out was unneeded.
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Sep 14, 2022 22:48
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Uranos still has to fight Apocalypse for the throne of "best Darkseid expy" (Apocalypse will win)
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Sep 15, 2022 00:00
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danbanana posted:Oh that Xavier panel in AXE is omega-level COLD. Because it's going to be seen more in other comics. It was just a thread in AXE and a misdirection in this book in particular. It looks like the heroes have won, their plans have succeeded and everything will be fine. Uranos was being built as the real threat, but it turns out they had a plan for him. And then since that works, you figure their plan with Eros will work. But nope. That didn't work, and everyone's hosed. It was a real good job of misdirection, pulling heroes in multiple directions, and then pulling the rug out when it seemed like everything was going to be fine. I also really enjoyed how Kamala and Miles passed. Especially Miles.
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Sep 15, 2022 00:14
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Codependent Poster posted:I also really enjoyed how Kamala and Miles passed. Especially Miles.
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Sep 15, 2022 00:22
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HELP WHY IS STARFOX SO HOT NOW HELP
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Sep 15, 2022 00:37
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Codependent Poster posted:Because it's going to be seen more in other comics. It was just a thread in AXE and a misdirection in this book in particular. It looks like the heroes have won, their plans have succeeded and everything will be fine. Uranos was being built as the real threat, but it turns out they had a plan for him. And then since that works, you figure their plan with Eros will work. Spending 40 pages setting up a side plot (and more in setting up Uranos as this ultimate threat that literally committed genocide in minutes) to have it bait and switched AND resolved over 4 pages is not good storytelling imo. Imagine not reading Red and wondering what the gently caress is happening and oh yeah somebody important is dead. Also, they didn't have a plan for Uranos! It just happened that he was released and Storm/Mags showed up. If he isn't released... What the gently caress is the plan? The end of Red set it up with Berto and the Night peeps et al were gonna gently caress him up. They don't do anything because there's not enough pages. Just disappointing.
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Sep 15, 2022 00:45
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danbanana posted:Spending 40 pages setting up a side plot (and more in setting up Uranos as this ultimate threat that literally committed genocide in minutes) to have it bait and switched AND resolved over 4 pages is not good storytelling imo. Imagine not reading Red and wondering what the gently caress is happening and oh yeah somebody important is dead. Sounds a lot like infinity with avengers and new avengers
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Sep 15, 2022 01:10
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Uranos is not dead, he could always return.
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Sep 15, 2022 01:21
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Mulva posted:Man what did Captain America do to piss that Celestial off? oppose the Superhuman Registration Act remember how much of the Progenitor's self is based on Tony Stark
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Sep 15, 2022 01:45
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danbanana posted:Spending 40 pages setting up a side plot (and more in setting up Uranos as this ultimate threat that literally committed genocide in minutes) to have it bait and switched AND resolved over 4 pages is not good storytelling imo. Imagine not reading Red and wondering what the gently caress is happening and oh yeah somebody important is dead. If Uranos isn't released then they don't have to worry about him, because he's in the Exclusion. But they knew Druig was going to get desperate. If Eros wins the vote before Uranos is released, then they're fine. But if he releases Uranos, well, they planned for it. It wasn't Storm and Magneto that defeated him.
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Sep 15, 2022 01:49
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Fritzler posted:Xavier's judgment was brutal and accurate though. And probably not how he sees himself. I wouldn't be so sure. I think Charles realizes he's done David dirty (among other people), but he has so much other stuff on his plate all the time, it makes a consistent convenient excuse to ignore all the poo poo he's done Compare that to people who passed because they genuinely feel no guilt, like Doom, or feel that everything they do is/has been justified, like Magneto
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Sep 15, 2022 01:57
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I don't think the entity who judges Daredevil and Captain America as failures deserves much thinking regarding its judgement criteria. It's extremely flawed, that's the point.
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Sep 15, 2022 02:01
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Still waiting for the homebrew celestial to go psyke! at the last minute and gently caress off and leave everyone to stew in their own poo poo. 'the real judgement was inside you all along!'
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Sep 15, 2022 02:14
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Saoshyant posted:I don't think the entity who judges Daredevil and Captain America as failures deserves much thinking regarding its judgement criteria. It's extremely flawed, that's the point. I have been saying it, but it seems pretty clear to me that people are being judged by their own metrics and neither Cap nor Daredevil would every really consider themselves as having lived up to their ideals. Cyclops, on the other hand, measures himself by how the people around him judge him.
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Sep 15, 2022 03:09
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