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"Tanks are losing relevance because of <insert new technology>" is the "the young people are both ruined and ruining everything" of warfare takes
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Sep 16, 2022 18:48
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Wasn't the breakthrough that predicated the front collapsing around Kharkiv spearheaded by massed armor? Seems kinda premature to say they're not as relevant.
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Sep 16, 2022 18:49
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CainFortea posted:Are the grey/blue uniforms the wagners? Just a guess but the blue ones could be National Guard; have sticks, sort of thing they would use back home for riot control. 
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Sep 16, 2022 18:55
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Jarmak posted:Wasn't the breakthrough that predicated the front collapsing around Kharkiv spearheaded by massed armor? Seems kinda premature to say they're not as relevant. Yeah but it was 15 tanks. So basically an armor company's worth. I mean it worked, but it wasn't Kursk. The armor company punched a hole through the lines and light infantry pushed through to attack rear areas and encircle the main body. About as close to a textbook combined arms assault as you can get. In fact I'm sure it's going to be added to said textbooks during the next reprint.
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Sep 16, 2022 18:56
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I don't mean they're on some major scale more insignificant, like 10% less, not 50%. They're still valuable, just less defensible now that they've been hunted with drones controlled by guys in trailers using prototypes rigged with grenades and mortars. The money spent on tanks in the future might be better directed to something like drone swarm tech that can drop heavier munitions. Build one less tank and you can have a fleet of drones. Tanks will still be needed, but cope cages aren't going to save poo poo.
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Sep 16, 2022 18:57
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There's gonna be some great books written about all of this in five years or so. And maybe some better ones once everyone involved with making a decision on either side is dead.
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Sep 16, 2022 18:59
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I think the effectiveness of anti-tank weapons gets conflated with the obsolescence of tanks. Anti-tank weapons have gotten amazing but those antitank weapons are equally or more effective against every other vehicle you'll see on a battle field. Hell tanks often survive the hits long enough for crews to escape and tanks are still just about the safest possible vehicle to be if you know someone is firing anti-vehicle weapons. Particularly in this conflict, your other options are to be in a btr (or early bmp) behind half an inch of armor or a late-model bmp with a bit over an inch of armor, or some even less armored vehicle, or even a civilian vehicle. tldr anti tank weapons have gotten really good but tanks are still the best protection by far of anything that moves, which has not stopped being vitally important CRUSTY MINGE posted:I don't mean they're on some major scale more insignificant, like 10% less, not 50%. They're still valuable, just less defensible now that they've been hunted with drones controlled by guys in trailers using prototypes rigged with grenades and mortars. The money spent on tanks in the future might be better directed to something like drone swarm tech that can drop heavier munitions. Build one less tank and you can have a fleet of drones. Tanks will still be needed, but cope cages aren't going to save poo poo. honestly I don't think they're knocking out many tanks with the drone grenades, maybe blowing up the optics or something, which certainly is a good use of them, but there's a reason why 99% of the videos of the drone grenade attacks are on much softer targets Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 19:00
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I don't think any self respecting officer would claim you don't need tanks to punch through enemy fortifications.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:02
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I just want to imagine a world where 100 drones rise up and drop poo poo from a few hundred feet up just levelling a grid square full of old T72s, okay.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:05
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:I just want to imagine a world where 100 drones rise up and drop poo poo from a few hundred feet up just levelling a grid square full of old T72s, okay. pretty sure you could get a bunch of engineers together and in an afternoon they could design a drone-dropped munition that reliably seeks out an open hatch
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Sep 16, 2022 19:06
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Herstory Begins Now posted:pretty sure you could get a bunch of engineers together and in an afternoon they could design a drone-dropped munition that reliably seeks out an open hatch For experienced engineers using image recognition, this is trivial to do, since you're looking top down onto the target. The hard part is the hardware and getting the munition to make course adjustments.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:09
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:Valid points. I might just be thinking that you can do a lot with the resources it would normally take to build and maintain a tank, maybe to the point where they take a less prominent role in the future. This is fair, particularly for nations without the money or resources to maintain large mechanized formations. There are likely other, more cost efficient ways to resist. MWI has some good podcasts on the topic, including one with a former Hungarian special forces officer. I think he lwmeans a bit too much into the idea that light infantry are the ultimate multi - tool, but he has some excellent ideas. On Resistance
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Sep 16, 2022 19:11
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:I just want to imagine a world where 100 drones rise up and drop poo poo from a few hundred feet up just levelling a grid square full of old T72s, okay. We can have that cake and eat it too https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bg9uoI8RQKc
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Sep 16, 2022 19:13
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CRUSTY MINGE posted:I just want to imagine a world where 100 drones rise up and drop poo poo from a few hundred feet up just levelling a grid square full of old T72s, okay. What the gently caress you think UFOs formations off the coast of Baja are? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPrYVmYkL5w
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Sep 16, 2022 19:15
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That's kind of what drives my reasoning. It wouldn't take a lot of money to rig up some sort of semi-synchronized drone defense, or even offensive fleet. It may take time to manufacture freshly engineered munitions, but russian tanks having a pop-goes-the-weasel turret feature would add to the effectiveness of repurposed munitions in the short term. /\ those are just interdimensional bigfoot transport ships. CRUSTY MINGE fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 19:16
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I think the effectiveness of anti-tank weapons gets conflated with the obsolescence of tanks. Anti-tank weapons have gotten amazing but those antitank weapons are equally or more effective against every other vehicle you'll see on a battle field. Hell tanks often survive the hits long enough for crews to escape and tanks are still just about the safest possible vehicle to be if you know someone is firing anti-vehicle weapons. Particularly in this conflict, your other options are to be in a btr (or early bmp) behind half an inch of armor or a late-model bmp with a bit over an inch of armor, or some even less armored vehicle, or even a civilian vehicle. well that's the thing. A tank is no better protected against a Javelin than any other vehicle, so what's the point of tanks? And Javelins aren't even modern, they're cold war tech. In the future you're gonna have to deal with bullshit like a technical full of Swarm Hellfires dunking a tank company from 5 miles away. and from the other side - use cases for tanks - artillery gets continuously more accurate and faster to respond and harder to counterbattery. And artillery is way more important for breaking positions than tanks. And you don't need tanks to kill armored vehicles anymore. so RN tanks are literally caught in the battleship problem where thick armor is no longer the best protection and big guns no longer the best weapon, except in very specific scenarios. Tanks are gonna be pushed into a sort of glorified assault gun role unless anti-missile (and anti-drone) systems work out real well. At that point you're probably back to Tanks Good.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:22
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Next gen tanks are going to include anti-drone countermeasures, drones of their own, and electronic warfare suites. What is currently reliant on dedicated vehicles will instead be shrunk down and integrated widely.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:27
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Sensor suites versatile enough to allow the TC to stay buttoned up the whole time should help. That and CROWS rather than sticking-out-the-hatch-running-the-gun, fed networked sensor data to blat drones out of the sky, I expect.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:29
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:well that's the thing. A tank is no better protected against a Javelin than any other vehicle, so what's the point of tanks? And Javelins aren't even modern, they're cold war tech. In the future you're gonna have to deal with bullshit like a technical full of Swarm Hellfires dunking a tank company from 5 miles away. Tanks are immune to light infantry and provide excellent support when properly screened. They can out range any infantry mobile AT weapon if you can spot and intercept the carriers. They can carry big Night Vision and Thermal cameras, as well as RWRs that can be a huge force multiplier to direct dismounts. Tanks are the pointy end of combined arms maneuvers because they are incredibly durable, which is their point. Drones and Planes and Missiles are fragile and expensive. Anti-drone stuff will be cheaper than anti-tank stuff just because of that fragility.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:30
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Have you seen Trophy? Tanks good. Not perfect, not invulnerable (they never really were) but good.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:31
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e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgmXhukQx4 vs small drones is a win for the much cheaper vehicle. Just need the elevation and fire control incorporated in the next gen vehicle. If you're up against a tank you either need an AT weapon or you are dead or retreating, no maybes
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Sep 16, 2022 19:32
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Loezi posted:"Tanks are losing relevance because of <insert new technology>" is the "the young people are both ruined and ruining everything" of warfare takes Horses became obsolete after millennia in military service. It's not at all inconceivable that the tank will share that fate at some point in the future. I think that point is very definitely not now, but stuff can become obsolete. While olds complaining about the young is an evergreen that will be with humanity as long as there are young people to complain about.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:36
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They were still using horses just a couple years ago weren't they. Tools don't tend to become obsolete as much as become more and more niche
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Sep 16, 2022 19:39
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Russia's dedication to OPSEC: accidentally announce via propaganda that 20% of your contract servicemen refused to deploy https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1570662673305735169
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Sep 16, 2022 19:46
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I think it’s important to remember that light antitank weapons have been devastating to Russia because they are bad at combined arms and screening their armor. This is like the arguments that aircraft carriers are obsolete while ignoring all the things a competent navy does to keep carrier killers at a distance.
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Sep 16, 2022 19:46
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Torrannor posted:Horses became obsolete after millennia in military service. It's not at all inconceivable that the tank will share that fate at some point in the future. I think that point is very definitely not now, but stuff can become obsolete. While olds complaining about the young is an evergreen that will be with humanity as long as there are young people to complain about. Yes, but there's a difference between "An incremental advancement in drone/artillery techology - things that are already around and engineers are already working on countermeasures for - has rendered the tank irrelevent" and "We've finally built a working T-800/HK, so now you can just have your "troops" attack without any concerns for casualties/morale".
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Sep 16, 2022 19:55
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Ukraine Goodfellas'd a bunch of Russian puppet officials today. https://www.theguardian.com/world/l...f083f878e70ef20
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Sep 16, 2022 19:56
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https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1570778687053897736?t=xLSMoU_adpeKXMjp3iZ0Bw&s=19
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Sep 16, 2022 20:00
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Having played approximately 2000 hours of C&C Generals as a teenager I can safely say tanks will still be relevant we just have to finally install laser based anti-anti-tank missile point defenses.
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Sep 16, 2022 20:12
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Another thing to sort out is how much it will cost to have a tank that is network integrated and has all these sensors and advanced comms systems bolted on, how heavy is it? do you have to lose armor? Also, what happens to the durability of a tank with this kind of gear. Is a teched up tanked with tons of countermeasures mission killed from a molotov cocktail since it has its sensors and gear, by necessity on the outside of the vehicle? What about maintenance? It's supposedly a huge deal to use an autoloader because you lose a crewman that is good for repairs and whatnot. Now you have a whole bunch of extra high tech stuff to maintain as well!
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Sep 16, 2022 20:27
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:well that's the thing. A tank is no better protected against a Javelin than any other vehicle, so what's the point of tanks? And Javelins aren't even modern, they're cold war tech. In the future you're gonna have to deal with bullshit like a technical full of Swarm Hellfires dunking a tank company from 5 miles away. 1) u can put pd systems on tanks and 2) tanks absolutely blow up less from non-perfect shots than every other vehicle and 3) even at the height of this javelins were never anywhere near the primary anti-tank weapon involved in this. tanks are still the best protection against the best variety of weapons present by a huge margin. hell we only started giving ukraine javelins because basically nothing in the Ukrainian arsenal was effective for dealing with t-90s back in the first stage of the conflict. As in they were struggling to knock out t90s at all, period. Highest end of tanks currently is still very survivable, people are just seeing a ton of spectacular videos of modern weaponry blowing up 50 year old tanks also I don't believe that tanks primary purpose has been armor on armor battling for a long drat time. seems to be more about 1) continuing to hold ground in adverse circumstances that would gently caress up lighter vehicles or infantry and 2) taking ground in areas where lighter vehicles would get hosed up and 3) being a mobile big gun and optics/comms package to support everything else around it. that said, there's probably people here who know way, way more about how tank are used than me so I'll shutup about that Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 20:32
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Cythereal posted:https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1570778687053897736?t=xLSMoU_adpeKXMjp3iZ0Bw&s=19 I would buy the gently caress out of that
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Sep 16, 2022 21:00
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not caring here posted:I would buy the gently caress out of that That defeats the point. Get it for free/cheap in a scrap yard if you can't take one from your enemies.
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Sep 16, 2022 21:04
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Cythereal posted:https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1570778687053897736?t=xLSMoU_adpeKXMjp3iZ0Bw&s=19 Sneak peak of James May’s ride in the next Grand Tour special
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Sep 16, 2022 21:06
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Cythereal posted:https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1570778687053897736?t=xLSMoU_adpeKXMjp3iZ0Bw&s=19 
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Sep 16, 2022 21:08
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Yes maybe someday "heavy, durable vehicle that can take a lot of heat while still blowing the poo poo out of X" will be obsolete but I'm not seeing that happening any time soon. Group of well-armed infantry with tank support >>>Group of well-armed infantry
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Sep 16, 2022 21:15
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M_Gargantua posted:That defeats the point. Get it for free/cheap in a scrap yard if you can't take one from your enemies. My enemies aren't classy enough to own Pugeots.
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Sep 16, 2022 21:25
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not caring here posted:I would buy the gently caress out of that That's a Peugeot 307cc with the boot removed and the roof fixed in place. Est. prices 3-7k€.
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Sep 16, 2022 21:35
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SlowBloke posted:That's a Peugeot 307cc with the boot removed and the roof fixed in place. But how much to replicate that patina?
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Sep 16, 2022 22:36
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psydude posted:Ukraine Goodfellas'd a bunch of Russian puppet officials today. quote:What'll you do when you get lonely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z6MJIjCJ20
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