|
Popcorn movies have the "advantage" of being more visible, more likely to be marketed as a win for [insert minority], more likely to have obviously poo poo/boring/clichéd writing, and more likely to be of a type of movie the people complaining would actually care about. Some movie about Nigerian lesbians in the '70s isn't a "threat" the same way a white female action hero is, even if the former checks off more "woke" boxes. Also, I don't think subtext ever matters. If you just look at it at the surface level of 2049, it's like they actually listened to the anti-woke crowd: - White leading man - "Respects the original" by having Ford reprise his role - Respects the acting chops of an alumni of one of the greatest institutions for manly men: the WWE If on the other hand Gosling had been replaced with a leading woman, the reaction would probably have been immediate, and this crowd would be up in arms about how her character disrespects Ford's and how unrealistic it is that she could take down Bautista.
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 18:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
I don't think "the divinity of the womb" is necessarily antithetical to the chud viewpoint.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:06
|
|
|
I could see a version of that being chuddy, yeeeah, but this ended up being a "with all the money and power and tech in the world, I can't be as powerful as a normal human woman and OH MY GOD, IT MAKES ME CRAZY" sorta thing. e: Like I distinctly remember coming out of theater and thinking, "Why is no one bitching about this?"
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:22
|
|
|
Das Boo posted:I could see a version of that being chuddy, yeeeah, but this ended up being a "with all the money and power and tech in the world, I can't be as powerful as a normal human woman and OH MY GOD, IT MAKES ME CRAZY" sorta thing. The giant sexy lady in the trailer probably headed off a lot of complaints, coupled with casting the lead dude from Drive / Only God Forgives. A lot of their arguments always feel less about the nuances of the content and more about the optics tbh. Open Source Idiom fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Sep 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:34
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:I don't think "the divinity of the womb" is necessarily antithetical to the chud viewpoint. Das Boo posted:I could see a version of that being chuddy, yeeeah, but this ended up being a "with all the money and power and tech in the world, I can't be as powerful as a normal human woman and OH MY GOD, IT MAKES ME CRAZY" sorta thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:35
|
|
|
Alright last post for now I promise, but I didn't know there was a term for the phenomena I was saying was happening: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law 95% of everything is trash. 95% of media created by people intending to use their media to portray social injustice will, like all media, be trash... but it gets held to a higher standard because when politically charged media is trash, it is capitalized on by opponents of the ideals portrayed as proof of the failures/flaws of said ideas. And, well, if we just cut to the chase, those ideas are "minorities aught to be treated equally". And how did I find this "law" of media? Ursula K le Guinn herself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deuas-AuzbU It just makes me kinda loving sad. Here we are 47 years later, most of my father's (who introduced me to Earthsea as a young teen) lifetime, and it's still a great tide of bitching and belly aching when someone did like le Guin did and says "hey fantasy actually doesn't have to be lily white all the god drat time"-- and, yes, 95% of the time the product is trash. But 5% of the time you get Earthsea or Stormlight Archives or (imo) the Broken Earth or (sub "straight as gently caress" for "lily white") the Locked Tomb trilogy, hell, Avatar the Last Airbender. So what is woke? Who loving cares. It's a chud term used to describe everything from solar panels to trans women literally just existing as somehow being an existential threat to white men and western culture. The vague and inconsistent usage is part of the loving point. Bad writing will be bad writing with or without clumsily included minorities. The purpose of the application of "woke" to media is to accuse bad writing of being largely a product of inclusion of minorities, clumsy or not. If Brandon Sanderson, a white dude that teaches at BY-loving-U, can include black and gay and Asian and so on characters, then so can you. Just try to not suck poo poo at writing (though it's more likely that you will). Das Boo posted:I could see a version of that being chuddy, yeeeah, but this ended up being a "with all the money and power and tech in the world, I can't be as powerful as a normal human woman and OH MY GOD, IT MAKES ME CRAZY" sorta thing. Same reason "Born in the USA" plays while warhawks walk onstage to rail against foreigners. People, in generally, are cripplingly media illiterate. Decon fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Sep 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:47
|
|
|
I think I'll have to watch it again with that in mind. I only saw it twice around release, but at the time I remember viewing it as a toxic dude being obsessed with controlling womanhood and how much of a monster it makes him. I might've been wrong, and I'll accept if my reading was off!
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 19:51
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:That's a good point. "Men do violence, women make babies" is like the very core of reactionary thought, and lines up perfectly fine with the movie. There's also Luv, who fits this framework as a kind of monstrous or failed femininity. She's Wallace's primary enforcer, defined pretty exclusively by her lack of warmth and her extreme violence, as well as her inability to bear children for Wallace which seems like a source of personal shame for her. Wallace is a man who lacks access to some kind of Divine Feminine, and cannot make babies despite his best efforts so instead he begets more violence. Meanwhile, Stelline is a kind of messianic figure whose exclusive domain is empathy, kindness, and creation that comes to her naturally. I still think BR2049 is an incredible movie, but yeah...this makes sense and is a pretty conservative angle that I'm not into. That said, I don't know that 2049 is well-liked by conservatives. The only people I can think of who did like it are from a kind of film-crit strata of art movie fans. Mass audiences seem to have found it plodding and indulgent regardless of their politics. Xealot fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Sep 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 20:00
|
|
|
Xealot posted:That said, I don't know that 2049 is well-liked by conservatives. The only people I can think of who did like it are from a kind of film-crit strata of art movie fans. Mass audiences seem to have found it plodding and indulgent regardless of their politics. Have there been any movies the Go Broke people have liked? I don't think "appreciating things" — even art that might align with their ideology — is really part of their deal.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 20:17
|
|
|
Das Boo posted:I think I'll have to watch it again with that in mind. I only saw it twice around release, but at the time I remember viewing it as a toxic dude being obsessed with controlling womanhood and how much of a monster it makes him.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 20:40
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Have there been any movies the Go Broke people have liked? I don't think "appreciating things" — even art that might align with their ideology — is really part of their deal. Yeah, Top Gun: Maverick was viewed as a successful non woke movie. To it's credit, the sequel is visually impressive, with great camera angles during dogfight scenes. But that's not the reason reactionaries liked it. The film depicts an aging white guy who successfully proves everyone can still learn a thing or two from him. Female and poc characters are in the background, with the main conflict between three white guys-Maverick, Rooster, and Hangman. There's this recurring theme of "don't just think, act!". The cocky upstart goes from  "No you shut the gently caress up dad! " to  "omg save me daddy" towards maverick through the movie.They feel a character like Maverick "deserves" to be a badass fighter pilot because he's earned it through the character development of the first film. I'm sure boomers loved it too since that theme of old guy proving he's still relavent is in a lot of boomer bait films.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
Alita: Battle Angel? Dredd? Haven't heard anyone say anything bad about these movies. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 22:01 on Sep 16, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:They feel a character like Maverick "deserves" to be a badass fighter pilot because he's earned it through the character development of the first film. I'm sure boomers loved it too since that theme of old guy proving he's still relevant is in a lot of boomer bait films. Yes, I've seen plenty of media that plays this game. Reacher on Prime Video being a recent example. There are a number of loosely procedural TV shows that skew conservative and are well-liked for it. Bosch or Yellowstone are apparently also in that sweet spot. I can't think of many other recent features, though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 21:59
|
|
|
Mr. Grapes! posted:I think a lot of modern film discourse (and marketing) kind of pigeonholes certain movies as Woke or Not and then people will often align themselves with or against the film regardless of its quality to either show their credentials as woke or to show how they hate SJW stuff, and the film kind of gets lost in all the vitriol Yes, ideological conformity. And it can happen long before the film has been released and even by those who don't have any intention of seeing the final product. Begun, the film proxy wars have. Schwarzwald posted:Have there been any movies the Go Broke people have liked? I don't think "appreciating things" — even art that might align with their ideology — is really part of their deal. There are tons of preachy, patriotic conservative films out there that are beloved and people gobble that stuff up. Tons of historical war films are jingoistic and redact anything that could be considered to be anti-US. Compare and contrast something like Downfall with a hypothetical film showing allied leaders during the same time. While Hitler was raging in a bunker somewhere FDR was hanging around Lucy Mercer (his mistress) down in Georgia. Don't hold your breath waiting for someone to release a WWII film that showcases US leaders carrying out affairs while the troops are being blown to bits like cannon fodder. Then there's more niche religious films. Here are a few scenes that'd win Oscars if the religious right was doling out the awards: God's Not Dead https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFcZS8ra6gk Fireproof https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdgQkF4iIv4 happyhippy posted:Alita: Battle Angel? "Too much foul language!"
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 22:17
|
|
|
There was some clamor over Minions 2 I guess? I think it came out around the same time as Lightyear and since Lightyear bombed and Minions 2 did okay that proved to reactionaries that the woke stuff in Lightyear did it in.happyhippy posted:Alita: Battle Angel?
|
|
#
?
Sep 16, 2022 22:19
|
|
|
Decon posted:If I'm misremembering the spy issue, fine, but I recall discussion of a spy. It did indicate their was a traitor. The movie started pointing to Holdo as possibly being so, as she was the only unknown character and leading them on an unknown path with no POV scenes where we saw her perspecrive. We didn't have any other character that could have been the traitor at that point because everyone else was just background. It was a subversion that she wasn't the problem and our plucky heroes were, but subverting audience expecting can cause visceral issues. It also makes people who were tricked start really trying to find ways to criticize the plot if they aren't satisfied by the twist. TLJ was *okay* but really suffered from being basically a first draft, so it becomes a horrible center for the culture war as it has so many legitimate issues. One of those examples, too, where bigots hear people voicing legitimate criticisms and just steal them to try to act like they have legitimate reasons - while fans dismiss any critcism as you being a secret bigot. Disney in general is really the worst center for all of this stuff. It was better when it was Avatar or something before "woke" was a term ans "Ferngully!!!" was the best the same people could come up with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 00:32
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Alita gets propped up as what they feel a 'non woke' protagonist should be like. Which didn't make much sense to me but I guess there's some threshold of woke scolding that happens in a movie/show that determines whether the movie is woke or not. I assumed they latched onto Alita because it was an action movie with a female protagonist that happened to come out around the same time as Captain Marvel rather than because of anything in the actual movie.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 03:29
|
|
|
The marketing campaign for Captain Marvel really hammered you over the head that this is a feminist movie. I'm guessing they had to lean into this extra hard because they got beaten to the box office by Wonder Woman. Plus there was a lot of hatred specifically for Brie Larson.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 03:49
|
|
|
A film is woke to me when the inclusion/diversity is used as a gimmick. Ghostbusters 2016 took 3 white guys, 1 black guy, and a lady admin assistant and replaced it with 3 white ladies, 1 black lady, and a male admin assistant and pretty much called it a day. The diversity was central to the movie "it's ghostbusters, gender swapped!". I'm surprised there wasn't a female version of Walter Peck that showed up to shut them down. Despite this I think Ghostbusters 2016 still could have worked if Paul Feig wasn't an enormous hack as pretty much everyone on the cast is talented on their own. Edit: To add to the list, the Go Woke/Go Broke crowd universally loves Alien and Sigourney Weaver and... it's a hard point to contest since Ripley is actually a character with a lot of depth. Skills are established early, she shows a full range of emotions throughout the movie, and overcomes significant adversity. So I guess what I'm trying to say is include whatever diversity you want but just write good/compelling characters. Captain Marvel is a good example of a character that is not compelling but honestly through no fault of Brie Larson. delightful fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Sep 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 04:41
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Alita gets propped up as what they feel a 'non woke' protagonist should be like. Which didn't make much sense to me but I guess there's some threshold of woke scolding that happens in a movie/show that determines whether the movie is woke or not. Basically, my view is that anti-woke backlash can grow out of a more neutral fan backlash against bad adaptions, with a lot of the "neutral" fans being perfectly fine with that happening because it adds a ton of voices to their complaints. Even if there are also fans who will be like "Ah poo poo, not those guys", knowing that their "movement" is about to be co-opted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 05:52
|
|
|
Doesn't help that the 'anti-woke' voices frequently get actively amplified by clickbait media and actual marketing campaigns at least once or twice. As said, they feed on each other. A constant desperate search for easy targets.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 08:21
|
|
|
as I think other people have already noted - you can't really draw first principles from the things the alt-right says as they will say whatever suits their immediate purpose. the films they complain about are ammunition for their beliefs, not foundation
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 08:26
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 08:31
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:as I think other people have already noted - you can't really draw first principles from the things the alt-right says as they will say whatever suits their immediate purpose. the films they complain about are ammunition for their beliefs, not foundation Also yeah, attempts to 'decode' alt right stuff descend into embarassing Kremlinology quickly
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 08:32
|
|
|
No way is John a Connor a beloved character come on.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 10:28
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:as I think other people have already noted - you can't really draw first principles from the things the alt-right says as they will say whatever suits their immediate purpose. the films they complain about are ammunition for their beliefs, not foundation Proof of this is when Gina Carano first showed up in star wars they poo poo themselves because she won a fight against a man. Then she loses her poo poo and gets fired for being a transphobe and suddenly those who had hated her presence suddenly loved the character, because the actress was one of "theirs". They don't actually have principles or ideals, just their feelings, which is a bit ironic considering who the type of person who says "facts don't care about feelings" usually is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 10:55
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:I assumed they latched onto Alita because it was an action movie with a female protagonist that happened to come out around the same time as Captain Marvel rather than because of anything in the actual movie. This would be correct. They didn't actually pay much attention to Alita to nobody's great surprise as the story is about a woman forging her own path while men around her think they know better than she does. You'd often see them tell on themselves too with basically saying women had Alita and also Wonder Woman previously so they don't need other female-fronted movies. Take the bite you're given and be happy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 13:19
|
|
|
garycoleisgod posted:Proof of this is when Gina Carano first showed up in star wars they poo poo themselves because she won a fight against a man. I have no time for either of these kinds of arguments, but I always have difficulty believing that an entire group of people did an about face like this, rather than there just being two different lovely factions within the broad church of chuddom. I believe some people are hypocrites, and I believe that some people changed their opinions, but I generally think there's a broader reactionary diaspora at play here.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 13:29
|
|
|
Open Source Idiom posted:I have no time for either of these kinds of arguments, but I always have difficulty believing that an entire group of people did an about face like this, rather than there just being two different lovely factions within the broad church of chuddom. The people commenting in this stuff aren't actually watching anything and are just parroting grifter opinions. They just repeat what a YouTuber or a Facebook meme says. Alita is a prime example as none of them actually watched it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 14:45
|
|
|
Schwarzwald posted:Have there been any movies the Go Broke people have liked? I don't think "appreciating things" — even art that might align with their ideology — is really part of their deal. They like movies from the 80s because they can idealise that as a social and cultural golden age that happens to coincide with the youth of a lot of millenial and gen-x chuds. It's essentially their prelapsarian age before (a) woma/en came along and ruined everything.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 15:05
|
|
|
garycoleisgod posted:Proof of this is when Gina Carano first showed up in star wars they poo poo themselves because she won a fight against a man. Schwarzwald posted:Have there been any movies the Go Broke people have liked? I don't think "appreciating things" — even art that might align with their ideology — is really part of their deal.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 15:08
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:Rational people will always move goal posts in weird ways. You'll get people complaining about new Star Trek- being about social justice and it's like... have you watched Star Trek? That's its thing. I dunno, TOS was pretty sexist. And don't get me started on Enterprise.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 17:18
|
|
|
Timeless Appeal posted:She wasn't even fired for being a transphobe. She was fired for comparing being a conservative in Hollywood to being a Jew in the Holocaust. Not a movie but I was at a Crosby, Stills and Nash show in like 2015 and Stills made a comment about how Hillary will be a good president in a couple years. This made a section of the audience furious and boomer rear end white guys started screaming at Famous Leftish Activist Hippie Band CSN to "quit with the politics." Just imagining caring about CSN for 40+ years but finding them tossing off a line of support for goddamn Hillary Clinton as a bridge too far.
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 18:01
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Alita gets propped up as what they feel a 'non woke' protagonist should be like. Which didn't make much sense to me but I guess there's some threshold of woke scolding that happens in a movie/show that determines whether the movie is woke or not. It's about the whole picture rather than just one character. A film's wokeness will be forgiven by the MAGA crowd if it's edgy, raw and blunt. A good example would be Menace II Society. On one hand there are scenes with characters saying stuff like "Bein' a black man in America isn't easy. The hunt is on. And you're the prey." Or Boyz N The Hood: "My daddy told me a black man has got no business, no place in the white man's Army." Those quotes hit close to the original definition of woke. But on the other hand both show minorities committing lots of crimes so it'll come across as completely authentic and thus non-woke to the right. Having minority villains is an excellent way to avoid the woke label. Throughout the Obama years there were big budget mainstream films with old dunderheaded white guys playing the role of the POTUS in a dubious way. This was something else seen as anachronistic and inauthentic at the time. A woke sin of the 2010s. It hasn't been touched on much (and is often understated and overlooked) but it's important to remember that a lot of those throwing woke accusations around lately would fall into the seriously mentally ill cohort of the far right. A lot (not all) of these election deniers are slowly coming out of some sort of detox in the wake of Trump's loss especially after August 2021 (which was supposed to be his big return to The White House). These believers are now fully resigned to curse Joe Biden on a daily basis. With the above in mind (regarding Alita: Battle Angel). If you want to take a trip farther down the rabbit hole and tap into that thinking even more... Any conspiratorial rightist or QAnon acolyte could easily make a connection between Obama and Vector. There are some on the fringe out there who think Obama was the front face of a shadow government.* (And Biden is just a senile stand-in who's taking orders from Obama at this point). All part of Zalem AKA the deep state. But who is Nova? The MAGA fringes might say George Soros but that may be somewhat passé in 2022. I haven't kept up with rightist conspiracies lately. * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKNg0Bm9c1k TLDR: We're in an era of extreme partisanship where many view everything through a facile political lens and won't skip the opportunity to shoehorn political enemies/heroes into every character. Thus, Obama is Vector/Black Panther and Trump is Aquaman/Kylo Ren. Lt. Danger posted:as I think other people have already noted - you can't really draw first principles from the things the alt-right says as they will say whatever suits their immediate purpose. the films they complain about are ammunition for their beliefs, not foundation If one looks from a great distance away it just looks like schizophrenia on a massive scale. Zogo fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Sep 17, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 23:15
|
|
|
Silver2195 posted:I dunno, TOS was pretty sexist. And don't get me started on Enterprise. But it's weird to me how people constantly keep going, "THIS time it is actually the right thing to exclude people from society."
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 23:34
|
|
|
Stuff like this annoys me because it's unartful and cringe. https://twitter.com/linaposting/status/1570867891259707394?s=20&t=JEKrY45Wb88ZreJ9iANmTg I'm all for using art to address real world political issues but this is the equivalent of Family Guy joke writing, where they explain that they're about to do a movie reference, do the reference, then remark on the reference they just made. LotR is often read as a parable to either of the World Wars (despite what Tolkein says) because of the power of it's imagery invites that comparison. You can't just have characters say what the theme is, that makes me feel angry!
|
|
#
?
Sep 17, 2022 23:49
|
|
|
Lt. Danger posted:as I think other people have already noted - you can't really draw first principles from the things the alt-right says as they will say whatever suits their immediate purpose. the films they complain about are ammunition for their beliefs, not foundation Right, but what actually is their immediate purpose? In the case of, say, this Little Mermaid remake, the movie’s already done! There’s no backsies on this one. Even the dork tweet claim that they’d whitewash the film via deepfake was an obvious lie to get attention. The reactionaries’ immediate goal is not some pipe dream of eliminating minority actors from film, but of politicizing the existing films. They’re performing the basic racist act of hyperfixating on a particular detail (i.e. skin tone) and making a big loving deal out of it, so that it stands out as an unnatural abberation - a sign of degeneracy in the arts. It’s to make it so you can’t “turn off yr brain” and simply enjoy the film, because you’ll be constantly reminded of the online culture war poo poo. This is where liberals, and Disney especially, are woefully underprepared. The common rejoinder to the reactionaries is to say, like, “why can’t a mermaid be black?” - taking an ‘apolitical’ stance, with their own appeal to naturalism. Ariel simply looks like that, right? Nothing in a Disney movie is “natural.” The only way out is to keep your brain on and question everything: this is a fable of a (monstrous) black woman moving on up in the 1700s, with everything that unavoidably entails.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 03:19
|
|
|
To some extent the goal is the outrage grift; most of this stuff is being pushed by YouTubers who need views in order to get ad revenue. The point is not to “win” but keep the faithful clicking and for that you need a narrative. Being able to shout “victory!” whenever a “woke” film underperforms keeps morale up.
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 03:26
|
|
|
Darko posted:Alita is a prime example as none of them actually watched it. And clearly didn’t watch it. It’s about a multi-cultural favela surviving on scraps dropped from an evil country club. It isn’t on their side. But that isn’t surprising, because these people are purely reactionary and base their opinions on optics as explained to them third-hand. Captain Marvel has a powerful lady smirking at the camera, but Alita was endorsed by the Terminator man and maybe liking it might hurt Disney who made the Holdo movie?
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 03:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 2, 2024 20:07 |
|
|
Mantis42 posted:Stuff like this annoys me because it's unartful and cringe. what movie is this, I'm morbidly curious
|
|
#
?
Sep 18, 2022 04:21
|
|
