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MegaZeroX posted:It's worth noting that, as a cohort, people leaving any country are going to be strongly skewed towards more negative opinions of the country they are coming from. Would this apply to war refugees as well, during a defensive war? I would think people being forced from their homes by a foreign invader would tend to have more positive opinions of the country they are coming from. To add to the thread, this is a good and short video summary by Vox that explains how Ukraine was able to turn the war around: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7INxfISGFs&hd=1
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Sep 16, 2022 23:19
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I found that elderly Ukrainians were very often not the most optimistic bunch at the best of times, but yeah, definitely lots of ways to look at things.
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Sep 16, 2022 23:22
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HonorableTB posted:Would this apply to war refugees as well, during a defensive war? I would think people being forced from their homes by a foreign invader would tend to have more positive opinions of the country they are coming from. I feel like those who are more confident about their country winning the war and their government taking care of them might be more likely to become internal refugees moving to other parts of the country (Western Ukraine is relatively untouched, for instance), while those who leave the country entirely might be more pessimistic about their odds of survival/being taken care of within their home country. But then again those who go further aboard might be relying on better-off family there capable of taking care of them, or they're just particularly cautious and want to ensure they avoid risk. So...eh?
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Sep 16, 2022 23:26
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Yeah I'd say there's definitely a generation gap between "remembers free stuff in the SSR" and "grew up in the 90s".
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Sep 16, 2022 23:33
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HonorableTB posted:Would this apply to war refugees as well, during a defensive war? I would think people being forced from their homes by a foreign invader would tend to have more positive opinions of the country they are coming from. The more patriotic Ukrainians are much more likely to have joined the war effort in some way. Whether it be directly through the army, or through more indirect means. Also, many of those displaced just relocated to somewhere else in Ukraine. The ones that chose to get out of the country completely chose to do none of those options. To be clear, there are plenty of reasons to leave, and I don't want to sound like I'm being negative here. I just want to reinforce that international refugees are still going to be observed being more negative.
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Sep 17, 2022 00:00
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MegaZeroX posted:The more patriotic Ukrainians are much more likely to have joined the war effort in some way. Whether it be directly through the army, or through more indirect means. Also, many of those displaced just relocated to somewhere else in Ukraine. The ones that chose to get out of the country completely chose to do none of those options. I am not convinced that this is a clear-cut case – you seem to be directly comparing voluntary migration to forced fleeing. People have different motivations for doing these things. cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 00:08
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I think in this case it was definitely more an economic reason, it didn't seem like he was concerned about the war much. was pushed pretty hard as an identity too, over your republic. As in, "I'm a Soviet man/woman" first, I guess similar to how the US works nowadays for normal people. Almost kind of laudable because nationalism is bad and it'd be great if we all could live together in peace. Anyway, obviously anyone who grew up later wouldn't get this at all and would have a stronger national identity.
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Sep 17, 2022 00:09
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Jamsque posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Om_A5TTQMm0 He just released part 4. I find it sadly easy to believe his statement that his lecture is the only current course at a major US university on Ukrainian history. This despite the war in Ukraine being a massive transformative event for the entire world and trillions of US dollars are being funneled into it. It can't be properly expressed just how much of a problem the isolationism in this stage of the "Information Era" is causing. Thanks for the link, guess I'm taking a Yale course at work now. Orthanc6 fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 00:52
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Does anyone have that tweet with the compilation of low-level flying cockpit footage? It's so many pages back and Google/YouTube isn't helping.
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Sep 17, 2022 01:59
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Moon Slayer posted:Does anyone have that tweet with the compilation of low-level flying cockpit footage? It's so many pages back and Google/YouTube isn't helping. https://twitter.com/kpszsu/status/1564531365600690176?s=46&t=s7cyE4Km1f1MmN1tSoRsiw
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Sep 17, 2022 02:02
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That's a good one for sure but not the one I'm thinking of, this one had the helicopter flying so low we all thought it was a truck dashcam at first.
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Sep 17, 2022 02:10
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Moon Slayer posted:Does anyone have that tweet with the compilation of low-level flying cockpit footage? It's so many pages back and Google/YouTube isn't helping. Risky Bisquick posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/Ukraine_AF/status/1566486966346162178
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Sep 17, 2022 02:15
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Thanks!
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Sep 17, 2022 02:22
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https://twitter.com/BleepinComputer/status/1570480115259408384 Not necessarily related to the war, but it sure seems likely quote:The victim is also the same as in July, an unnamed customer in Eastern Europe who has been “bombarded relentlessly” by the DDoS operatives all this time. quote:The motivation behind these persistent and massive-scale attacks remains unknown, but the region of Eastern Europe has been at the epicenter of hacktivism since the start of the year. 🤔
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Sep 17, 2022 03:11
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Orthanc6 posted:He just released part 4. I find it sadly easy to believe his statement that his lecture is the only current course at a major US university on Ukrainian history. This despite the war in Ukraine being a massive transformative event for the entire world and trillions of US dollars are being funneled into it. It can't be properly expressed just how much of a problem the isolationism in this stage of the "Information Era" is causing. It’s not strictly true; they changed a course at my PhD institution to use Ukraine as its focus this semester. That being said, the reason for the fact there are relatively few courses on the subject is that the discipline of history (and academia in general) has loads of institutional/structural problems and it isn’t at all equipped to react quickly to news with actual expertise. There are fewer and fewer professors equipped to teach courses in my country specializations even in the biggest departments and I can’t imagine how few there must be to teach courses on just Ukrainian history.
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Sep 17, 2022 03:40
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MegaZeroX posted:The more patriotic Ukrainians are much more likely to have joined the war effort in some way. Whether it be directly through the army, or through more indirect means. Also, many of those displaced just relocated to somewhere else in Ukraine. The ones that chose to get out of the country completely chose to do none of those options. I get what you're saying, and I can't really come up with an argument against it. I just don't know enough about this issue to be able to conjecture, but thank you for your posts. It's something I haven't thought about and I've followed this war since before it was a war
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Sep 17, 2022 03:55
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Ukraine Twitter flexing again: https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1570891498249670656 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Sep 17, 2022 04:14
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Moktaro posted:Ukraine Twitter flexing again: https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1570891498249670656 it's propaganda, sure, but it's been quite literally the case that Russia is a vital supplier of equipment, munitions, and ammunition for Ukraine. It's hard to find a single account of journalists or others visiting the front line and not running into tons of gear and weaponry and vehicles that have changed hands. in conclusion, lol
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Sep 17, 2022 04:21
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King Hong Kong posted:That being said, the reason for the fact there are relatively few courses on the subject is that the discipline of history (and academia in general) has loads of institutional/structural problems and it isn’t at all equipped to react quickly to news with actual expertise. Considered a feature, not a bug by many.
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Sep 17, 2022 04:29
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Another dawn is breaking in Kyiv, and it's still Ukrainian.   
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Sep 17, 2022 04:38
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King Hong Kong posted:It’s not strictly true; they changed a course at my PhD institution to use Ukraine as its focus this semester. That being said, the reason for the fact there are relatively few courses on the subject is that the discipline of history (and academia in general) has loads of institutional/structural problems and it isn’t at all equipped to react quickly to news with actual expertise. There are fewer and fewer professors equipped to teach courses in my country specializations even in the biggest departments and I can’t imagine how few there must be to teach courses on just Ukrainian history. I took courses on the History of Imperial Russia, the History of the Soviet Union, and the History of the Cold War (this class was really cool because it was co-taught, one professor taking the American perspective, the other the Soviet). Pretty sure anyone who teaches a subject like that can teach a class that focuses on Ukraine.
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Sep 17, 2022 04:58
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Charlz Guybon posted:I took courses on the History of Imperial Russia, the History of the Soviet Union, and the History of the Cold War (this class was really cool because it was co-taught, one professor taking the American perspective, the other the Soviet). Pretty sure anyone who teaches a subject like that can teach a class that focuses on Ukraine. They could, in like twenty years when the discipline's had a chance to actually process the events going on.
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Sep 17, 2022 05:23
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Moktaro posted:Ukraine Twitter flexing again: https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1570891498249670656 Just blow it up?
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Sep 17, 2022 05:26
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cr0y posted:Just blow it up? The joke is that they're going to take the ammo they captured from the Russians and use it on them, 'returning it'.
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Sep 17, 2022 05:27
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cr0y posted:Just blow it up? I think you're misunderstanding the post. They're implying that the ammo will be returned business end first, aka shooting it back
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Sep 17, 2022 05:28
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Charlz Guybon posted:I took courses on the History of Imperial Russia, the History of the Soviet Union, and the History of the Cold War (this class was really cool because it was co-taught, one professor taking the American perspective, the other the Soviet). Pretty sure anyone who teaches a subject like that can teach a class that focuses on Ukraine. Yes and no. One of the points he makes in this week's lectures is that historians expected Kyiv to fold because they've learned about what Ukraine is through the Russian lens, which emphasizes it as kind of a subsidiary entity...like Ukraine just transferred custody of the Kievan Rus legacy to Moscow and then hung around awaiting further instruction. Snyder's whole thing is that he reads a bunch of regional languages and synthesizes things from disparate primary sources. Kind of on the same note, he told a story about how even though the predominant language of the Ukrainian armed forces is Russian, the language of checkpoints is Ukrainian ("very flowery, friendly Ukrainian" as he describes it). And if you answer back in that language they kind of relax because the Russians can't do that.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:11
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piL posted:Considered a feature, not a bug by many. I don’t mean that historians should be expected to offer expertise about the present, I more mean that it’s difficult to offer expertise about the past of a country (or theme) if there is no one who specializes in that. That’s definitely partly a narrative issue but that also downplays the major structural problems that limit whether such a course could feasibly be offered. I quickly tried to find some Ukraine specialists in the US (Eastern Europe is far from my specialization) and there is a prominent one who appears to regularly teach the history of Ukraine (including this semester) at another top 5 department so the non-mention of his colleague in the lecture is actually a little odd.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:17
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Pinky Artichoke posted:Kind of on the same note, he told a story about how even though the predominant language of the Ukrainian armed forces is Russian, the language of checkpoints is Ukrainian ("very flowery, friendly Ukrainian" as he describes it). And if you answer back in that language they kind of relax because the Russians can't do that. A modern shibboleth arises quote:And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.
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Sep 17, 2022 06:23
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King Hong Kong posted:I don’t mean that historians should be expected to offer expertise about the present, I more mean that it’s difficult to offer expertise about the past of a country (or theme) if there is no one who specializes in that. That’s definitely partly a narrative issue but that also downplays the major structural problems that limit whether such a course could feasibly be offered. Yeah that's kind of peculiar and Ukraine, while not exactly well known to a lot of Americans, does have a quite significant diaspora, particularly in the US (a bit over a million, so a bit smaller than Vietnamese or about half of Indian or Filipino populations to give some recognizable comparisons). For whatever reason I run into a ton of people who have Ukrainian heritage so if anything it seems quite heavily represented, at least to me. There are also quite a few Americans with quite deep and up to date knowledge of Ukraine, albeit most of them seem to be in the orbit of the federal government or military or are more recent immigrants who still have connections back home. One thing it sounds like he's calling out that is quite accurate is that for a ton of Americans and including a lot of people who should know better, many of whom it's literally their job to know better, their understanding of Ukraine was basically a time capsule dating back to 2014 or earlier. Granted, those people are kind of the same generic American 'experts' who somehow get on tv but also know literally nothing of the local language and have never been in the region. Yknow, like our legion of middle east 'experts' who literally could not tell you the difference between Shia and Sunni Islam or for that matter even place Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Iran on a map. Just as a practical teaching thing, it's useful probably to point at that as an example of what not to do. With that said, American REES departments seem to be very heavily and disproportionately Russian focused for a whole myriad of reasons to the extent that many seem to reflect the same dismissive Russian attitudes towards Ukraine. Sometimes very literally. That kind of attitude towards Ukraine was also a lot more widespread, too, particularly with Ukraine's fairly long-standing popular perception of basically being a nexus of corruption and seediness and desperation. That reputation only started to get significantly dispelled in maybe the last 3 or 4 years. tldr Ukraine was easily dismissed and I wouldn't be surprised if it was professionally a lot more of a dead end compared to specializing in, like, anything to do with Russia Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 08:04
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King Hong Kong posted:I don’t mean that historians should be expected to offer expertise about the present, I more mean that it’s difficult to offer expertise about the past of a country (or theme) if there is no one who specializes in that. That’s definitely partly a narrative issue but that also downplays the major structural problems that limit whether such a course could feasibly be offered. Oh yeah, except for Russianographers, I suspect the majority of Ukranian-historians are currently in gradschool, getting drawn in by contemporary events. It takes a decade to make a historian, maybe longer and most English-speaking schools won't have anyone more interested in specifically Ukranian history over any other country until the current crop matures.
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Sep 17, 2022 08:18
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piL posted:Oh yeah, except for Russianographers, I suspect the majority of Ukranian-historians are currently in gradschool, getting drawn in by contemporary events. It takes a decade to make a historian, maybe longer and most English-speaking schools won't have anyone more interested in specifically Ukranian history over any other country until the current crop matures. yeah I think that's likely correct. I was in a Russian class taught by a Ukrainian on the day Russia rolled the first little green men into Eastern Ukraine and uh it left an impression. At that time I don't think there were literally any classes offered on anything to do with Ukraine despite having a decent presence of classes on Russia spanning several disciplines.
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Sep 17, 2022 08:23
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Moktaro posted:Ukraine Twitter flexing again: https://twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1570891498249670656 Why do half the shells look so rusty?
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Sep 17, 2022 09:14
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nimby posted:Why do half the shells look so rusty? Because they are probably older than most soldiers fighting in the conflict.
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Sep 17, 2022 09:16
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To add some background to Snyder's 3rd lecture: "Ukraine / the Ukraine" distinction in Polish "z Ukrainie / na Ukrainie" wasn't some imperial word play. Same form is used to address Hungary for example. My guess it's a leftover from couple centuries back when names like that were commonly associated with geographic and not political names. Of course recently it changed, and even if both forms are grammatically correct "w Ukrainie" is strongly encouraged.
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Sep 17, 2022 09:25
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Russia speakers, pop-psychology set aside, is this accurate on the linguistics point? https://twitter.com/Ohra_aho/status/1570788049382150148
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Sep 17, 2022 10:49
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Alchenar posted:Russia speakers, pop-psychology set aside, is this accurate on the linguistics point? "в Украине" and "на Украине" both auto-translate to "Ukraine" but taken separately "в" = "in", and "на" = "on the" edit: guess I should include the translation of the tweet Twitter Autotranslate posted:The most important linguistic-strategic observation of a nervous, humiliated and partly desperate Putin at the meeting is that he used the Russian expression «в Украине» and not «на Украине» for the word in Ukraine. 🧐 Cable Guy fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 10:56
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What's missing is evidence of what articles Putin has used previously. But he does look rather tired compared to most appearances that I have witnessed. It must be stressful planning your routes in Kremlin so that you only go through rooms with no windows.
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Sep 17, 2022 11:05
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Alchenar posted:Russia speakers, pop-psychology set aside, is this accurate on the linguistics point? I honestly think some people read way too much into every word and gesture Putin makes, I don't see why this is somehow important
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Sep 17, 2022 11:12
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Literally the most important thing about this conflict is and always has been 'what is going on in Putin's head?'
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Sep 17, 2022 11:14
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Alchenar posted:Literally the most important thing about this conflict is and always has been 'what is going on in Putin's head?' Yes, sure, I agree. But on that mission to try to glean that knowledge people, and I mean analysts, sometimes grab onto small things and interpret too much out of it. The restless leg one was interesting, as well as his disappearance, the longer tables and poor posture too. But there are many, many other explanations for this one such as a slip. Not saying he's not super anxious and probably 5 minutes from a complete mental breakdown all the time, but this to me sounds like that overanalysis on the severodonetsk battle, when people were making sweeping conclusions about the war based on that. E: I mean, what's next? Analysing how straight or tight his tie is? Don't get me wrong, it's totally important to analyze his public appearances but this one seems like just noise
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Sep 17, 2022 11:19
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