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Mooseontheloose posted:I mean isn't this reframing Republican talking points about how blue states say they love immigration but let's see how they handle immigrants? Like Boston, New York, Chicago, LA, DC, Philly don't have massive immigrant influx. Every single server at Bubba Gumps on Navy Pier in the early 2000s was an Irish National who’d overstayed their tourist visa and was working illegally. I know this because they told me. For some reason no one seemed to care.
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Sep 17, 2022 01:48
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The desire to blame other people for the ills of the world is rampant and fully embraced by the right. Not just there though! It's not only natural, but implemented and fostered at large. Cliche it may be but divide and conquer wins the day. I've been called a Trumper and such for trying to move the target when it comes to more... moderate/liberal folks in my life. Letting air out of truck tires and blaming everything on "redneck idiots" is easy, and counterproductive. This doesn't solve the problem of the hate and crueoty that plays so well with the right, but it frustrates me that people think just "being correct" is some powerful weapon against this. If you're not willing to talk to these people to make them your ally, you should really tackle the question of whether you're willing to loving kill them. Because otherwise, you're screaming at the void and waiting for somebody/something to make things better for you. Seriously, the trap of "such and such people are the problem" is dependant on the believe we have a real democracy and competent leadership. *this is regarding the absurd migrant missile, and how it is seen/handled by our "two sides". BRJurgis fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 01:54
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Fascists can't be reasoned with. The fascist worldview rejects factual information as lies in order to justify their bigotries. So yeah, you're correct in that being "right" is useless against them. The only thing that works is shaming, the threat of violence, or actual violence. Sartre figured this out decades ago and expressed it quite well. Don't argue with or even discuss things with fascists. They want you to do that in order to undermine the very idea of discourse.
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Sep 17, 2022 02:02
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Fascists can't be reasoned with. The fascist worldview rejects factual information as lies in order to justify their bigotries. So yeah, you're correct in that being "right" is useless against them. The only thing that works is shaming, the threat of violence, or actual violence. How do you shame one who completely lacks shame?
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Sep 17, 2022 02:13
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Fascists can't be reasoned with. The fascist worldview rejects factual information as lies in order to justify their bigotries. So yeah, you're correct in that being "right" is useless against them. The only thing that works is shaming, the threat of violence, or actual violence. I guess I'm saying the difference between "us and them" (f I must say that) is the capacity to view and treat others as humans vs archetypes of evil. This isn't a "you're just as bad as them" argument. Empathy communication and collaboration are not just virtues, but critical tools that "we" can't afford to not make use of. Fascism as a system is an enemy, but not being willing to label individuals your enemy (until its undeniable or unavoidable) is in itself a way of fighting fascism. The only power we can really achieve and wield is massive coordination. And don't get me wrong, when I say fight I mean force. I don't anticipate seeing a lot of meaningful growth and construction in my life. It's a powder keg.
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Sep 17, 2022 02:16
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H.R. Hufflepuff posted:How do you shame one who completely lacks shame? Generally you can't, but I think it's not only shame that's a factor, but the perception of safety. Fascists are also mostly complete cowards who only display their lovely beliefs when they think it's safe to do so. It's difficult to shame many of these people, true, but we can make the social environment less forgiving by never ceding an inch of ground to them. They definitely feel this squeeze and it's a big source of their feelings of inadequacy and grievance.
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Sep 17, 2022 02:42
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Oracle posted:Every single server at Bubba Gumps on Navy Pier in the early 2000s was an Irish National who’d overstayed their tourist visa and was working illegally. I know this because they told me. For some reason no one seemed to care. Working at a Bubba Gump is a pretty good punishment.
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Sep 17, 2022 03:05
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Generally you can't, but I think it's not only shame that's a factor, but the perception of safety. Fascists are also mostly complete cowards who only display their lovely beliefs when they think it's safe to do so. It's difficult to shame many of these people, true, but we can make the social environment less forgiving by never ceding an inch of ground to them. They definitely feel this squeeze and it's a big source of their feelings of inadequacy and grievance. This is why they freak the gently caress out about tearing down statues. Taking away their symbols, their propaganda scares them, that the world doesn't accept their lies and comfort them for their hatred anymore. Make examples, graphic ones.
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Sep 17, 2022 05:50
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shame isn't the right word so much as the point is to make them feel social consequences, which is quite effective
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Sep 17, 2022 06:01
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Embarrassment, perhaps? Just challenging them in public can be embarrassing for them.
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Sep 17, 2022 09:15
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BRJurgis posted:If you're not willing to talk to these people to make them your ally, you should really tackle the question of whether you're willing to loving kill them. What? So...my only two options for dealing with unreasonable, unreachable closed minded fascists is to try and engage with them or shoot them in the head? I've somehow largely managed to stake out a rather large middle ground between these two extremes. Unless you're referring to self defense in the event of fascist aggression, then I'm not sure I understand this take.
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Sep 17, 2022 13:18
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BiggerBoat posted:What? Right, maybe I haven't made my point very well and now that my head is clearer I worry I'm starting a derail, but I'll answer questions if you have them. The impulse and willingness to (and effectiveness of) labeling groups of people your enemy or "the problem" is what I'm trying to highlight. I think we all agree it's fully embraced by the right wing, to great effect. How else could they be rewarded by their base for being so openly cruel. It's not just "getting a win" over the other guys, it's the other guys are the problem and need to be dealt with. That thinking is what leads to people becoming unrepentant fascists. It's not just the right though, it's an easy trap to fall into. I/WE are obviously the good guys, we just have to best them (the bad guys) to fix things... a simple satisfying narrative.. That's why it's fostered and encouraged, because we have no real meaningful recourse but to out-vote them. We should resist this trap if at all possible because it's simple divide and conquer, an impotent display of solidarity within paradigms that are in significant part manufactured and forced upon us. An example, I talk about the urgency of our situation, a need to stand up and wield power, a willingness to fight. A lot. And I'll hear "that's so violent and extreme do you want to be just like those jan 6th people? Who's side are you on?" The teams are already picked, and folks suggest I'm not on theirs because I'm advocating a willingness to take action outside of their teams playbook. To be fair I live in the northeast, and I suspect many keep their most right-wing rhetoric to themselves in certain company (around me). Not everybody though, I've encountered open racists, and I make it clear if the poo poo hits the fan that ideology is putting them on the wrong side of me and something blunt or piercing. Fight means fight, not marching around with signs. But if shunning people is an effective tactic as an individual nobody seems willing to do that either. An elderly parent who supports trump might not see their grandkids as much as they'd like, but they are still supported by the family. Republican clients and business owners are served and patronized by necessity of running a small business or keeping a job. Acquaintances consume garbage chud videos and articles, and when they share those talking points they are hopefully pushed back against and argued with, at worst the topic is avoided, but they are not shunned or excluded. So the question is, who is really a fascist, our true enemy, and how do we know? People harbor all sorts of dumb ideas and practice cognitive dissonance freely, they don't fit neatly into ideological demographics. They're people, and our culture and systems encourage blindness and simple narratives. I say they are only your enemy when you can no longer do the work of exposing them to better ideas, and if one is serious about what fighting that will ultimately mean, it is only proper to be willing to communicate and collaborate first. Once somebody is your hateful and dangerous foe, what course of action are you left with then? Final note in all this, my main thing is the fact that we're destroying our world and its future. Yet I'm more or less surrounded by people that often won't fully recognize the injustice and unsustainability of our world. They want to believe things aren't so bad, not that bad anyway. It's easy then, for me to see them as enemies, because it's critical such worldviews change or go away. Yet shutting myself in my apartment is no more helpful than moving into a cave in the woods. It would be a personal action, entirely focused on myself and not on achieving what's needed (which is much bigger than me). I hope this isn't as exhausting to read as it was to type, and I know it's the weekend but i don't want to derail the thread as this is very much an argument I can't stop advocating. Or won't.
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Sep 17, 2022 15:22
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BRJurgis posted:So the question is, who is really a fascist, our true enemy, and how do we know? People harbor all sorts of dumb ideas and practice cognitive dissonance freely, they don't fit neatly into ideological demographics. They're people, and our culture and systems encourage blindness and simple narratives. This is maybe the key point to me. FLIPADELPHIA says "Fascists can't be reasoned with" and I'd argue that's not quite right. Fascism can't be reasoned with, for sure. But individuals with fascist beliefs don't fit neatly into some idea of a robot with no brain. They weren't born a different species. They're not all perfectly fascist at all times on all topics. Even if someone doesn't listen on Tuesday, maybe they'll hear you on Wednesday. We can't FORCE people to believe what we want, but we can expose them to our ideas that we believe to be better. After all, how did all the leftists of today learn to think as we do? Thinking you're inherently better than a fascist just puts you in danger of falling into the same cognitive and emotional traps without realizing it.
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Sep 17, 2022 16:02
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People have agency. Fascism isn't some airborne sickness that corrupts otherwise good people. Someone who believes gay / trans people have a right to exist is better than someone who doesn't. Yes, everyone is susceptible to propaganda. But propaganda doesn't have the power to make someone believe that asylum seekers should be shot dead at the border. These people arrive at these beliefs on their own and acting like the correct combination of magic words will cure someone's reactionary ethnonationalism is naive and dangerous. Is it possible to debate someone out of being a fascist? Maybe. Is it a thing that actually happens with any frequency? Absolutely not. What combats fascism is a social and political environment that does not tolerate it. Outlaw fascist symbols. Imprison people who advocate for genocide and religious nationalism. Fire anyone who associates with hate groups. Punch anyone wearing a swastika and record it, then put it out there for everyone to see. We will always have fascists with us. Make them afraid to have their fascism known to anyone. This whole "don't treat fascists badly otherwise you're no better than them" is bullshit. Fighting back is not morally equivalent to attacking innocent people. E: apologies for the derail, it's getting a little far from current events so I'll drop it. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 16:52
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Why isn’t Biden allowed to send US Marshalls to DeSantis governors mansion? Litigation that he’s looking into isn’t phasing him and he’s announced he will send more migrants.
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Sep 17, 2022 17:03
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Oracle posted:Every single server at Bubba Gumps on Navy Pier in the early 2000s was an Irish National who’d overstayed their tourist visa and was working illegally. I know this because they told me. For some reason no one seemed to care. There are around 50,000 Irish citizens living in the US illegally. This works out to around 1% of the ROI's population of 4.5 million.
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Sep 17, 2022 17:15
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:Yes, everyone is susceptible to propaganda. But propaganda doesn't have the power to make someone believe that asylum seekers should be shot dead at the border. The current situation very much suggests the opposite, that yes it does.
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Sep 17, 2022 17:15
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Bar Ran Dun posted:The current situation very much suggests the opposite, that yes it does. Yeah I have quite a few acquaintances that have spiraled from nominally liberal or somewhat conservative into full blown fascists, largely due to the propaganda they've consumed on the internet
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Sep 17, 2022 17:28
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Worth emphasizing at this point that propaganda works heavily through networks of mediation. You or I don't need to read the original article from RT for it to be effective- indeed, it's often much more effective if instead the reasoning is coming to us as a false consensus of members of our social group. Five SA users who've read and believe the same story that passed through different accounts on their twitter feeds are far more effective propagandists than the original author of the story would be on their own. If the communication platform is structured to develop or sustain those consensus groups, it serves as a continuous intensifying and socializing flow point for that effect. Whether it's a thread or subforum on SA, a discord server, or a facebook group, the effect is the same. Users easily self-sort and select for this sort of organization, and the people running the platform will often choose to facilitate it, despite (or because of) its harmful effects. In these contexts, sources of information and consensus serve as the organizing point for homophily, rather than other traits - along with structural organization where intra- or inter- forum identity conflict serves to justify and reinforce selective processing of information. At the same time, individuals, participants in the group, also serve as media sources in their own right. This is a very different mechanism than the individual passive indoctrination that folks visualize with, for example, talk radio, but they do reinforce each other. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:11 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 17:45
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rscott posted:Yeah I have quite a few acquaintances that have spiraled from nominally liberal or somewhat conservative into full blown fascists, largely due to the propaganda they've consumed on the internet This is a result of numerous choices that these individuals make. There are a near infinite number of sources of information and data available to people. That they continually choose the ones that feed them the propaganda that dehumanizes millions of people is a result of their own preferences. It's a negative feedback loop for sure, but again, these people are adults with agency. My own opinion is that people's core values can change over time, but it doesn't happen that often, and it's not an overnight thing. "My sweet uncle became a fascist by watching Fox news" isn't convincing to me as a general phenomenon. I think it's highly likely that these people have always had rotten core values. The thing that's changed is how accepted it is to share some of the logical results of those horrific core views. Openly fascist beliefs are way more normalized than they were even 20 or 30 years ago. It sucks to realize that a large number of people that we interact with have these extremely lovely moral compasses, but I suspect this has always been the case and people have just generally been a little bit more polite / coy about it in the past. "Never talk religion or politics at work", which has been an adage of American work life for a long time, is basically a dog whistle advising reactionaries to not bring that stuff up last it cause tension. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 18:00
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is a result of numerous choices that these individuals make. No it’s not. Analysis that is foundationally and axiomatically rooted in looking at the world in terms of “choices that individuals make” will obviously conclude that. But that’s just an ideological bias as a conclusion not actually what the reality is.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:10
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is a result of numerous choices that these individuals make. There are a near infinite number of sources of information and data available to people. That they continually choose the ones that feed them the propaganda that dehumanizes millions of people is a result of their own preferences. It's a negative feedback loop for sure, but again, these people are adults with agency. I think the "choice" arises when a number of factors are in play: * The person must already be predisposed to trust conservative media and distrust other forms of media. This can be as far reaching as "from childhood until present" or can be a more recent development, but yeah a person has to choose to shut out other forms of information. * The person must be predisposed to believing one or more of the conservative pillars; this one is a 'my opinion' thing but I've noticed people in the conservatives sphere are willing to go to great lengths to consume only information that agrees with something they already believe. * A willingness or need to find community, virtual or otherwise, with likeminded people. Once someone has all of these factors they hear something from a media source they trust, say "yup, I've always thought <climate change is fake/racist stuff/people are poor on purpose>", and then plug themselves into a newfound community that repeats what they believe. At that point the information you're fed gets worse and worse but you don't trust anybody else and attempts to convince you otherwise are framed as leftist attacks. I think people definitely choose to start this process but I don't know how they would choose to stop.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:16
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I know several people who were reliable Republican voters / Fox news watchers until 2016. Trump's overt fascism was a line too far for them, so they chose to abandon their party loyalty in favor of their moral preferences. I'm willing to bet there are a lot more people in that same boat in the wake of roe v Wade being overturned. Advocating requiring 10-year-olds to give birth to their rapists babies isn't a belief that can be forced on adults. These choices don't occur in a vacuum, and propaganda can subtly influence people to various outcomes. But it's not a mind virus that destroys agency.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:32
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Belief change tied to these issues can occur in a few different ways. Here's a couple different ways that come to mind that reflect what I've seen across different literatures- there's some overlap between them. 1. A traumatic event. People can get knocked out of prior beliefs by exposure to something that forces them to reevaluate their position (or, you know, head trauma). I don't find this is too common, but it can be conceptualized as suddenly placing a contradiction latent in prior beliefs into sharp relief. On an abstract persuasion level, this can take the form of introducing a concept or category break- but this requires that the individual is really open to persuasion in that context. One example is that essentialist categorization (for example,  sex/gender essentialism) lacks a consistent response to alternate examples (the presence of unambiguously intersex individuals). Under the right circumstances, this can be a less dramatic source for opinion change; the boundary conditions for it are difficult to describe and the lit around it mostly involves the godawful dual pathway models.2. Alternate need satisfaction. Political beliefs often provide a rationale or excuse for some underlying psychological need. This can be healthy or maladaptive, of course- but if it's the driving force connecting the individual, then if some other means of either more completely or permanently or conveniently satisfying this need appears, then it can work. Two major categories from different literatures are a) social support- a network of people who provide emotional or other support. The alt-right loves to target insecure people and embed them in groups. similar tactics are used for cult or religious indoctrination, but this is also a function of softer homophily self-sorting as I mentioned above. The other category is b) uncertainty reduction (which is related to and not the same as Uncertainty Reduction Theory, which is mostly a relationship theory). Political beliefs satisfy or quell sources of various psychological uncertainty, including moral or epistemic uncertainty. Political beliefs which provide moral clarity, either in the form of an ordered universe (e.g. Those People just have bad Core Values) or in terms of individual responsibility (e.g. because they're Bad People, I don't need to help them even if witnessing their suffering makes me feel weird). 3. Incentivization and rationalization. Through external pressure (peer, social, financial), individuals can change their previously held beliefs, frequently by suborning or crushing them down with rationalizations. This can be effective as a matter of policy, but like other forms of opinion change requires a lot of structural work to sustain it. Even "acting" a belief over time for external reasons (e.g. pretending to believe in antivaxx bullshit because it lets you fleece people) will cause an individual to rationalize and internalize parts of the underlying logical framework as they continuously perform it. This gets messy, because depending on circumstances people internalize and compartmentalize the underlying contradictions in different ways. While there's a folk belief that cognitive dissonance as a heavy burden to bear, folks who have an incentive to do it can effectively swap beliefs on a dime- and that makes lasting belief change difficult. Note all of these are value-neutral, and they're not getting into the details of rhetorical, persuasive or propaganda or honest methods of policy or practice that actually go into the specifics of how information is passed around and influences people, and the mechanics thereof; that's a whole separate thread, which got relentlessly poo poo up already. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 18:33
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is a result of numerous choices that these individuals make. There are a near infinite number of sources of information and data available to people. That they continually choose the ones that feed them the propaganda that dehumanizes millions of people is a result of their own preferences. It's a negative feedback loop for sure, but again, these people are adults with agency. People can absolutely be manipulated into completely changing their values, the big trick is just making people think their core values didn't actually change.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:34
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If someone makes a choice, then, well, it's possible to influence or control the outcome of that choice. Whether or not it is truly a "choice" isn't really material. The free will debate and whether someone has agency in belief formation doesn't enter into the causal equation.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:38
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Mendrian posted:I think people definitely choose to start this process but I don't know how they would choose to stop. That and they often start at unrelated places like crystals or partial vaccine skepticism or even pornography. This amethyst necklace is pretty tell me about these crystals, could be the start. I’m mean whoops personal choice there, that person obviously wanted to be a Nazi. The idea of personal choice also can blind people to the dangers of internalizing ideas too.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:44
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Fascism is also fueled by things like talk radio, social media, youtube, books, "news" and all sorts of poo poo like that. I can be as openly argumentative as I want at work or in my day to day travels and push back all I can but the weight and influence of all that is too much. So much of this feels like a machine to me. Very rarely does any of my civic minded "well actually" poo poo penetrate the minds of people we're discussing here no matter how polite I am about it or how nice they seem to think I am. Take NFL football for example. I run into a LOT of people who claim to not watch it anymore because of the kneeling thing. I usually just say how that doesn't bother me or whatever and say that I watch it less because I hate commercials. Not much I can say will get them to understand why taking a knee is no big deal and a valid non violent form of civil protest. It's just they hate america and disrespect the military. The end.
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Sep 17, 2022 18:50
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If propaganda on social media is not effective why do we have military programs for its use overseas that we run out of CENTCOM?
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Sep 17, 2022 20:07
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BiggerBoat posted:Take NFL football for example. Those people are also lying.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:08
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Propaganda and advertising work on everyone. People always think it doesn't work on them.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:14
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FLIPADELPHIA posted:This is a result of numerous choices that these individuals make. There are a near infinite number of sources of information and data available to people. That they continually choose the ones that feed them the propaganda that dehumanizes millions of people is a result of their own preferences. It's a negative feedback loop for sure, but again, these people are adults with agency. Dehumanization is pretty widespread and common in human cultures. It's hardly something unique to fascists, and definitely not something that propaganda needs to wholly create. And in most (if not all) Anglo countries, systematic dehumanization of minorities was widespread only a couple of generations ago. Here in the US, there's still Wallace voters alive today. But an important point I think you're missing is that the openly fascist beliefs we have today are basically directly descended from the openly fascist beliefs we were seeing fifty or sixty years ago. They became less acceptable to show publicly in national mass media, which fooled a lot of people into thinking they were a thing of the past. But they never went away, no matter how much polite disapproval they faced from the media. They just changed their terminology, changed the way they portrayed it. Same as how the LAPD reformed their horrible 1950s image into becoming the model of police professionalism...when in reality they were still just as racist as ever. Segregationists in the 50s and 60s became people concerned about "urban crime" and "good schools" in the 70s. All of that provided a fertile cultural soil to plant a new generation of disaffected white boys in, and plenty of old roots and dead-seeming trunks shot up new sprouts and leaves easily enough.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:29
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BRJurgis posted:The desire to blame other people for the ills of the world is rampant and fully embraced by the right. Not just there though! It's not only natural, but implemented and fostered at large. Cliche it may be but divide and conquer wins the day. What is the migrant missile?
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Sep 17, 2022 20:51
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Koos Group posted:What is the migrant missile? It’s basically a Long Island iced tea but with creme de menthe instead of triple sec.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:05
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Koos Group posted:What is the migrant missile? DeSantis and Abbot spending money to lure migrants into vessels that trafficked them and left them like an old mattress to make a political point which could only be construed as a win if you believe in dehumanizing/hurting people (as the right is engaged in).
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Sep 17, 2022 21:08
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Jaxyon posted:Propaganda and advertising work on everyone. People always think it doesn't work on them. This is definitely true but I think there's also a distinction to be made as to degrees depending on one's self awareness, skepticism and critical thinking abilities. A lot of people I know LIKE advertising and most often find commercials funny, clever and informative that make them inspired to be like the smiling good looking people on the TV. It's like the old adage of if it's on TV, it's automatically important and if it's in print, it's true. How else to explain the success of something like, say, My Pillow or Bitcoin? There are definitely distinctions to be drawn regarding just how effective propaganda and advertising is on individuals I think. There's a reason certain people camp out overnight to buy another i-phone every year, a new game console, storm a WalMart on "black friday" or who pay $500 for a new pair of Jordan basketball shoes and those that effectively tune that poo poo out. We even see it here where anyone who posts anything "factual" is expected to back it up with links and evidence and where advertising is kept to a minimum as opposed to places like FB or YT where that poo poo is not only ubiquitous but EXPECTED as part of the experience and a normal part of every day life. I know it effects me, for sure, and that repetition and concise messages DO work but I also think my inherent resistance to it, avoidance of it and general dislike of it HAS to make some degree of difference in its overall effectiveness or how it shapes my thinking and others like me.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:10
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Bar Ran Dun posted:If propaganda on social media is not effective why do we have military programs for its use overseas that we run out of CENTCOM? While I do think propaganda on social media is effective, "if it wasn't effective would we dump a bunch of military budget into it" isn't an especially convincing argument considering the other things the military dumps and has dumped lots of money into.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:16
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shimmy shimmy posted:While I do think propaganda on social media is effective, "if it wasn't effective would we dump a bunch of military budget into it" isn't an especially convincing argument considering the other things the military dumps and has dumped lots of money into. One of the reasons other countries do it to us now is how effective they thought it was when we used it.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:34
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I think there is a certain latent...something that gets triggered either by conservative news or social media. My Mom is very difficult, often selfish, but also has had friends of most races/genders including having transgender friends in the 70s, but has never been an agitating leftist. If you want to know where her politics are she was excited for....Klobuchar because Warren was too economically liberal and she didn't want a male candidate. Why do I mention this? She watches fox news as often as msnbc or more often, for 20 years, and... none of their rhetoric ever sunk in. She opposed the Iraq and Afghanistan wars while watching Fox News three hours a day after 9/11. She is pro gay marriage and transgender rights and appalled by republican policies. Her only hangups are she worries about scaring away moderates and impacts of socialized healthcare (she had a great private plan through my Dad that paid out several million of dollar for her many bouts of cancer, reconstructive surgery, etc, and worried she'd have been unable to get that kind of care). Based on her age, her media consumption, etc, she should be a monster but something innate to her inoculates her from ever believing the propaganda. It does make me think the theory that 30-40% of people just straight up will always be authoritarian/identitarian has a lot of validity.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:36
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Blindeye posted:impacts of socialized healthcare (she had a great private plan through my Dad that paid out several million of dollar for her many bouts of cancer, reconstructive surgery, etc, and worried she'd have been unable to get that kind of care). Hopefully you have pointed out to her that the "great private plan" through your dad is still socialized medicine, it's just less effective socialized medicine because a for-profit corporation is skimming a lot off the top for profit.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:49
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