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Valentin posted:I just don't think Hori is very good at plotting or drawing a compelling fight. Almost every fight in MHA has come down to "whomst punch/quirk awaken harder" and I wouldn't say there are any particular standouts that spring to mind if you had to name "cool fights in MHA". Not even a whole lot of compelling emotional bits or memorable setpieces or cool payoffs in the series' fights. Compounding the issue, he forgot to write arcs or sideplots for anyone except deku, shiggy, and the todorokis. So unless you're really hype for Akira, but with hands, there's just no hook to any of these fights. ????? All Might vs. Nomou. Todoroki vs. Deku, Stain vs. Heroes, Bakugo + Deku vs. All Might, Deku vs. Bakugo, Endavour + Hawke vs. High End, MVA fights, Mirko vs. High Ends. And they all sprung to my mind literally instantly. Like, I fully agree that MHA went down to shitter recently, but all those "and therefore, MHA was actually always poo poo, if you thing about it" takes are pretty dumb.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:04
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Even though this week's chapter is stupid Mirio has had an incredible showing. Dude is grossly outmatched and can't even touch Shiggy, but he's still pulling at all the stops to buy even a literal second of time. I actually really like that his plan didn't even involve throwing a punch, really makes it feel like he was a legit candidate for One for All.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:07
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Lt. Lizard posted:????? I mean I'd argue all the italicized fights are exactly examples of what I'm talking about, but isn't the bolded one literally "oh no, this nomu can absorb the force of all might's punches!! Whatever will we do!" *All might punches harder and it works* e: I think a lot of the MVA/war fights are not particularly interesting (dabi and geten is literally just dueling energy blasts iirc) but toga vs whoever and sad man's parade are both definitely highlights. Valentin fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 20:27
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That isn't what happened. All-Might realize the quirk wasn't full nullification and realized he could overwhelm it with incredible fast targeted attacks. That is why Deku is freaking out because it is an example of All-Might's *skill* that he can do that The scene is important because it shows having OFA isn't enough, you need the ability to use it properly. AM wasn't the greatest just because of his Quirk.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:33
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't what happened. All-Might realize the quirk wasn't full nullification and realized he could overwhelm it with incredible fast targeted attacks. aka, punching harder
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Sep 17, 2022 21:35
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Oxxidation posted:aka, punching harder No? Even if Deku didn't break his limbs with every punch he still couldn't do it because 'punch harder' matters it was a case of skill. Like his power is Punch Hard. Anything he does is a hard punch. The battle against the Nomu was supposed to show he is more that his Quirk.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:37
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All Might’s whole speech during that fight is “if you’re built to withstand me at 100%, then I’ll just punch you at 110%!” In essence, punch harder
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Sep 17, 2022 21:46
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Valentin posted:I mean I'd argue all the italicized fights are exactly examples of what I'm talking about, but isn't the bolded one literally "oh no, this nomu can absorb the force of all might's punches!! Whatever will we do!" *All might punches harder and it works* I mean you have argued that there were not a lot of MHA fights that had "compelling emotional bits or memorable setpieces or cool payoffs" and literally all of the fights I mentioned have at least two out of three, if not all three of those. And while there are definitely fights that boil down to "who will quirk the hardest", as pretty much every shonen has those, it still applies to less than half of the fights I mentioned (and I would argue that High Ends vs. Mirko definitely doesn't count as one), so "almost every MHA fights comes down to who will quirk the hardest" is not really true either. And if you want to say that "three or four is not really that much", there are literally scores of fights in the various school exams that were all about creative quirk use that I have not mentioned, because I focused mostly on the "emotional, memorable and cool payoff" part. Like if you want to argue that not every fight in MHA is emotional, memorable, with cool payoff and with creative and tactical use of quirks than I definitely agree, but that's pretty far from your original complaint.
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Sep 17, 2022 21:51
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it's been said that presentation also tends to be an issue in mha's fights - how many times has this thread been squinting at fight scenes that are just page after page of cross-hatching? the gentle brawl gets trotted out a lot because it's one of the few that had really comprehensible, dynamic flow instead of one or two "BIG PUNCH" panels/pages with a whole lot of spilled ink in between not like that's an uncommon problem, though. i wish every punch comic could be as snappy as sakamoto days Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 21:58
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Oxxidation posted:aka, punching harder Actually it was punch faster as to overwhelm it.
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Sep 17, 2022 22:10
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Oxxidation posted:it's been said that presentation also tends to be an issue in mha's fights - how many times has this thread been squinting at fight scenes that are just page after page of cross-hatching? the gentle brawl gets trotted out a lot because it's one of the few that had really comprehensible, dynamic flow instead of one or two "BIG PUNCH" panels/pages with a whole lot of spilled ink in between To be fair, a lot of that comes from reading lovely pirate scans to get manga a couple days early, when the final product is much more legible, even when it's flawed. It's basically creating your own problems.
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Sep 17, 2022 22:19
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Horikoshi basically only had anything good by accident
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Sep 17, 2022 22:47
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Lt. Lizard posted:Like if you want to argue that not every fight in MHA is emotional, memorable, with cool payoff and with creative and tactical use of quirks than I definitely agree, but that's pretty far from your original complaint. eh, I think we are just operating with different standards here. I went back to reread deku vs todoroki, because I was surprised I'd forgotten a pretty crucial early fight, and it's not really that interesting! deku shoots invisible wind pressure cannons forward, todoroki shoots ice back, the whole fight takes place on a straight line. deku punches him twice, shoto closes the distance in return by hiding behind some ice (and it's the most interesting thing in the whole fight), then they return to shooting energy from opposite sides of the arena. even the big fire reveal isn't super visually compelling, imo. And then it ends with, surprise, they both cover themselves in energy and there's a big invisible energy clash and smoke. Mirko vs the high ends is like 20 pages over four chapters, Mirko kicks them a bunch, dodges (and one time doesn't dodge) a lot of out-of-nowhere momentumless flesh tentacles (just like the current fight lol), runs down a corridor, then gets stabbed a bunch of times. that's the whole fight! Maybe people disagree, very possible I'm an outlier. But try e.g. reading deku vs shoto and rock lee vs Gaara against each other (they're almost literally the same premise, guy who only punches vs elemental master in an early tournament arc), and I think hori's issues with fight choreo, engaging use of shonen fighting magic, momentum/pacing, and readability become extremely evident. And kishimoto's not a uniquely-gifted master (though I think he gets undersold because of people's understandable issues with the series as a whole), he just executes on important fundamental things and doesn't replace all possible visual spectacle with explosions and smoke.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:04
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Flesnolk posted:Horikoshi basically only had anything good by accident I know the thread is in full "gently caress this comic" mode, but this is unnecessarily harsh. The action doesn't scan well a lot of the time, and has admittedly been weak for a while, but to dismiss all of it across the entire run is just wrong IMO.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:12
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it’s flesnolk, he only posts to mine for negative attention
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Sep 17, 2022 23:14
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Oxxidation posted:it’s flesnolk, he only posts to mine for negative attention Oh is that how they make bitcoin now?
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Sep 17, 2022 23:15
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Yeah I don't think Hori is all bad by any stretch, and I don't think a series gets this popular without doing something right. He's just not very good at fights, and the series has so many of them and they're so much of the screentime. And there are ways around that, like I think e.g. chainsaw man is an absolutely phenomenal shonen series with relatively few, mostly very short fights. But instead of choosing another route Hori has piloted us to the Everyone Fights Everyone Ninja War V ending, and I don't think that plays to his strengths at all. One of the best fights is probably deku vs gentle, and that plays heavily into the school slice of life stuff and leans a lot on character motivation, and I think had Hori found a way to retain focus on those strengths as he amped up his stakes we'd be having a very different conversation.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:19
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Oxxidation posted:it’s flesnolk, he only posts to mine for negative attention Says the guy who's tried to goad people into suicide before
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Sep 17, 2022 23:26
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I mean people love Bakugo.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:29
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ImpAtom posted:I mean people love Bakugo. lmao
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Sep 17, 2022 23:30
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Valentin posted:One of the best fights is probably deku vs gentle, [...] and leans a lot on character motivation, and I think had Hori found a way to retain focus on those strengths as he amped up his stakes we'd be having a very different conversation. All Might vs All For One is looked at fondly for a similar reason, IMO. Choreography-wise, it's very simple (I could be remembering wrong, I started reading the manga after this point so the art might also have been messy back then), but the fight uses everyone pretty well, focuses more on the characters, audience emotional investment and symbolism than gigantic spectacle or any need to top itself constantly like this final fight seems to want to do. And yet it's working with the sort of high stakes and desperate tone that this final fight is fumbling with. So he could do it, he just isn't now for whatever reason. GruntMountain fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Sep 17, 2022 |
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Sep 17, 2022 23:32
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Personally, if a manga isn't doing it for me I stop reading it
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Sep 17, 2022 23:33
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ImpAtom posted:I mean people love Bakugo. Hell knows why besides "he's pretty" these days, since Hori's stubbornly clinging to Shonen Determination as all the justification you need for absolvement, as proven by refusing to let Endeavor or Hawks stop fighting.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:36
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Delphisage posted:Hell knows why besides "he's pretty" these days, since Hori's stubbornly clinging to Shonen Determination as all the justification you need for absolvement, as proven by refusing to let Endeavor or Hawks stop fighting. ... What? The dude changed over the course of the series, has proven himself a better person and gave a heartfelt apology to the person he most genuinely hurt and then literally died in the line of duty trying to protect people. I'm genuinely not sure what more you can expect.
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Sep 17, 2022 23:44
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ImpAtom posted:I'm genuinely not sure what more you can expect. I dunno. Maybe a whole arc where he got to be the protagonist? That's how everyone warmed up to Shigaraki. There's just this feeling in the back of my mind that Bakugo just never managed to break through the glass ceiling of "better than Part 1 Sasuke" despite so much of Twitter saying he's better than Sasuke just for not turning evil. Delphisage fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Sep 18, 2022 |
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Sep 18, 2022 00:30
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I mean to be fair him refusing the offer to join Team Villain when everything up to that point seemed to be telegraphing that he'd go evil was a good moment of subversion and has probably stuck with people. Even if him not actually dying for good is unforgivable.
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Sep 18, 2022 00:51
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Flesnolk posted:I mean to be fair him refusing the offer to join Team Villain when everything up to that point seemed to be telegraphing that he'd go evil was a good moment of subversion and has probably stuck with people. I never thought he'd join evil so much as be brainwashed into serving evil. Though maybe that's because I didn't read Naruto until a couple years later.
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Sep 18, 2022 00:54
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Don't be silly. Why would anyone be interested in the bad boy who is also the only one of the big 3 that wasn't either literally bred to have the perfect quirk or was handed the strongest quirk ever?
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Sep 18, 2022 00:58
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I do think he's a little too cartoonishly evil to be interesting at the start of the manga, so I am a little sympathetic to people speculating that he's just who the fujoshis locked on to. And yes, I'm aware how funny it sounds to refer to an actual cartoon character as "cartoonishly evil" in the negative sense lol
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Sep 18, 2022 00:59
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Valentin posted:Maybe people disagree, very possible I'm an outlier. But try e.g. reading deku vs shoto and rock lee vs Gaara against each other (they're almost literally the same premise, guy who only punches vs elemental master in an early tournament arc), and I think hori's issues with fight choreo, engaging use of shonen fighting magic, momentum/pacing, and readability become extremely evident. And kishimoto's not a uniquely-gifted master (though I think he gets undersold because of people's understandable issues with the series as a whole), he just executes on important fundamental things and doesn't replace all possible visual spectacle with explosions and smoke. I did just read both fights back to back and.... ....the fight is just as basic as you present Todoroki vs. Deku to be and is absolutely the definition of "quirk hardest to win" with the whole thing being literally an arms-race between Rock Lee hiting harder and Gaara no-selling hits harder. Todoroki vs. Deku has simpler choreo, but there is no issue with readability (Horikoshi sucks at it, but it became a real problem with Yakuza arc, the early stuff is pretty clear, if simple), it has far swifter momentum (it takes half as long as Rock Lee vs. Gaara and honestly loses nothing important) and it executes all its dramatic and emotional beats miles better. It has also better foundation and better pay-off, but that's not really fair comparison because Rock Lee is a side-character, while Deku is the protagonist, so it makes sense that he is better developed and that his efforts have a bigger effect. You might prefer the Rock Lee vs. Gaara fight and that's fine, but it's not even close to being as self-evidently superior to Todoroki vs. Deku fight as you seem to think it is.
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Sep 18, 2022 01:09
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Plus Deku vs Todoroki was more about the character development than the actual on-page action
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Sep 18, 2022 01:49
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Horikoshi's fight choreography has never been particularly great, but it was mostly swift and punchy. A lot of the early fights in the manga are over very, very quickly for shonen manga fights; All Might vs All For One lasted a whopping five chapters - All Might arrives at the end of chapter 89 and United States of Smash happens in 94.
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Sep 18, 2022 01:50
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Delphisage posted:I dunno. Maybe a whole arc where he got to be the protagonist? That's how everyone warmed up to Shigaraki. I mean he has. He has proven he is capable of working with others, acknowledges his mistakes, has changed as a person and while he is still aggressive he's proven as definitively as possible that he isn't the same person he was when he was a bully. I think to some degree people find it easier to forgive a mass murderer than a high school bully because the latter rings more true, but as far as high school bullies getting better as they age and grow up goes, Bakugo is pretty solid in that department. For all the other problems I have with MHA, I really genuinely think Bakugo's execution is about as good as you can expect and I prefer it to something like "he goes evil" or "He gets constantly humiliated and shown up and never evolves past his arrogance."
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Sep 18, 2022 01:55
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Bakugo has more of a developed character arc than basically anyone else in the manga besides, uhhh, Endeavor, I guess? Most of the characters are pretty static.
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Sep 18, 2022 02:13
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Problem with Bakugo is just Hori having his bullying go way too far in chapter 1 for a lot of people to ever buy a redemption from him.Woozie66 posted:Don't be silly. Why would anyone be interested in the bad boy who is also the only one of the big 3 that wasn't either literally bred to have the perfect quirk or was handed the strongest quirk ever? Yeah this is definitely a big reason for finding him interesting despite that.
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Sep 18, 2022 02:26
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Evrart Claire posted:Problem with Bakugo is just Hori having his bullying go way too far in chapter 1 for a lot of people to ever buy a redemption from him. I mean to put it politely, that is their problem. He was an rear end in a top hat and absolutely deserves to be knocked for his behavior and had to grow up and be better but he's actually done that. Like I can understand disliking Bakugo for his behavior but "he's beyond redemption" is bewildering because that puts him into the same category as "Captain Fire Eugenics Wife Beater" and a whole lineup of literal mass murderers. And even in the case of the literal mass murderers people genuinely would have liked to see them get some kind of forgiveness despite being mass murderers. Like hell, Twice was a sad hosed up man and his murder by Hawks was sad but he was also still a literal murderous supervillain whose last act before he died was killing someone. Hell I like MHA:V more than MHA and people were more willing to forgive the literal attempted rapists than Bakugo and with them doing a whole lot less to redeem themselves. And while I largely think MHA:V does everything better, Bakugo vs Soga is not even close. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Sep 18, 2022 |
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Sep 18, 2022 02:34
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MHA is definitely going to have that Bleach moment where it went from an all-time great series into wasted potential and I can't pinpoint that exact moment yet.
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Sep 18, 2022 03:58
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Tampa Bae posted:MHA is definitely going to have that Bleach moment where it went from an all-time great series into wasted potential and I can't pinpoint that exact moment yet. You think so? I'm willing to bet it's going to go full blown "It was never good" before the end of the series. I'll be honest though, while I am down on the current arc; I get the feeling that, much like the overhaul arc, it'll probably play out better in a singular read through rather than week by week releases and even if the premise of it isn't so hot it won't feel half as much a stinker as the thread makes it out to be in the future.
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Sep 18, 2022 04:00
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Tampa Bae posted:MHA is definitely going to have that Bleach moment where it went from an all-time great series into wasted potential and I can't pinpoint that exact moment yet. I'd say... not spending more time with Vigilante!Deku was the tipping point where everything suddenly went into overdrive and nothing's really allowed to breathe anymore
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Sep 18, 2022 04:20
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Vinylshadow posted:I'd say... not spending more time with Vigilante!Deku was the tipping point where everything suddenly went into overdrive and nothing's really allowed to breathe anymore The war arc before that turned every threat up from 10 to 100 and set the stage for the degradation of every character arc and theme in the manga. I'd honestly go a little farther back and say the Hawks and Endeavor fight the Nomu arc might have been the real turning point.
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Sep 18, 2022 05:47
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