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Peggys character arc was basically resolved in the first half of the season with the burger chef pitch and Julio relationship. Her just kind of cruising through the last half seems fine to me. She made her carousel pitch, using aspects of her own life to enhance her sales pitch. She killed it, equaled her mentor and he sees her as an equal, not a subordinate. She made it
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Sep 16, 2022 03:23
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I always thought the scene with her telling Stan about her baby was more important for stans character tbh. We see him showing actual emotional intelligence. The stuff with Julio resolved her baby plot line IMO
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Sep 16, 2022 03:25
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Pete and Trudy literally fly off into the sunset. Of course we're supposed to assume they live happily ever after.
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Sep 16, 2022 04:03
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Bismack Billabongo posted:Peggys character arc was basically resolved in the first half of the season with the burger chef pitch… Especially this, I’d say. The “My Way” scene really feels like the conclusion to her story, or at least the emotional high point of it, though I guess seeing the actual pitch is a relevant epilogue. Then she’s kind of around for the rest of the show. I don’t hate that she winds up with Stan, but it’s the only part of the finale that rings false to me. Mediocre romcom energy.
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Sep 16, 2022 04:15
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I think Peggy's choice to stay at McCann says a lot too. She's no longer looking for something else/better, despite an extremely flattering offer from Joan and the chance to set aside a lot of the bullshit she hates dealing with. Her staring down Lorraine (tough as nails but no Joan!) on top of the fact she refused to come in and work until she had her office has basically defined how she will approach life at McCann: she's not taking anybody's poo poo and she's skilled and valuable enough that she can do that. She had to be convinced to go to McCann by her consultant despite it being one of the biggest Agencies in the world, and she kind of swallowed a bitter pill by agreeing to it, but now that she's there I think she's grasped that she wasn't just good at her job for a medium-to-large Agency, she's good at her job PERIOD regardless of the fact she works for a behemoth like McCann. She isn't going to get lost in the mix, she isn't going to feel overwhelmed or like she doesn't belong. She's going to put in the work, she's got Stan there with her, and maybe by 1980 (75 or 76 tops, I say) she's a Creative Director there, but perhaps more likely she does as the consultant said and builds up a strong portfolio there so she can take it to work for a smaller but prestigious agency that values creativity: Wells, Rich, Greene for example which Roger used as a boogeyman to scare the other Partners into taking Don back. Being with Stan did feel like it came out of nowhere but ALSO like it had been idling just beneath the surface for a long time. The Stan she first meet? No way. But by the time she was in CGC and he remained at SCDP, they'd basically become inseparable, so there's something almost perfect about Peggy trying to explain to Stan why she doesn't feel that way about him only to slowly realize,"Wait a second....  "
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Sep 16, 2022 04:20
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I don't normally go in for romcom gimmicks, but Stan running down the hall to Peggy's doorway gets me every time 
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Sep 16, 2022 11:22
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Jerusalem posted:Being with Stan did feel like it came out of nowhere but ALSO like it had been idling just beneath the surface for a long time. The Stan she first meet? No way. But by the time she was in CGC and he remained at SCDP, they'd basically become inseparable, so there's something almost perfect about Peggy trying to explain to Stan why she doesn't feel that way about him only to slowly realize,"Wait a second.... I believe I have heard that Matthew Weiner initially wasn't sold on the idea that Stan and Peggy should be a couple and had to be convinced by other writers on the show. In the meantime, the actor who played Stan thought "gently caress it, I'm going to play that Stan is in love with Peggy regardless" from around season 6 onwards. So it kinda makes sense that the audience, like Peggy, only realises that the relationship has been slowly building up the whole time in retrospect. not great bob fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Sep 16, 2022 |
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Sep 16, 2022 13:42
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I feel like Stan and Peggy is one of those things that's better appreciated on a rewatch; I remember being sort of blindsided by it like she is the first time through but the second time around it's pretty clearly a Slow Burn, "Enemies" To Lovers sort of thing
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Sep 16, 2022 20:30
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Blood Nightmaster posted:I feel like Stan and Peggy is one of those things that's better appreciated on a rewatch; I remember being sort of blindsided by it like she is the first time through but the second time around it's pretty clearly a Slow Burn, "Enemies" To Lovers sort of thing I remember being blown away by it, but later...if you haven't noticed by the time the kid staples her hand, I'm not sure you were paying attention
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Sep 16, 2022 21:30
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I agree with most of the Peggy/Stan sentiments; it felt like a pat, rushed happy ending for the two on my original viewing, but on rewatch it's clear that the seeds were planted all along. (As I noted in spoilers like a year ago, I originally just thought their routine phone calls in S6 were an easy a way to keep Peggy looped in to the SCDP drama after she left for CGC.) I still take issue with how their ending plays out, though. By placing that exchange as the immediate aftermath of Peggy's call with Don, who just said like half a dozen things that trigger "suicide" flags in the viewer's mind, it doesn't let their resolution have room to breathe and stand on its own. The audience's concern is still with Don, so the abrupt turn to the emotional lives of these two makes it feel extra cheap. (I think their relationship lasts. Do they get married? Probably...a few years down the road, when Peggy's accountant tells her that filing jointly would provide a significant savings after a promotion to Creative Director puts her in a higher tax bracket.) As far as Peggy's actual ending...I agree with roomtone's take that it's kind of a bummer. Yes, Peggy has come so, so far since she was a secretarial school grad. She's demonstrated that she really is an outstanding advertising mind and is clearly destined for greater things. But it also feels like she's locked into the rigid structure of corporate America and can only imagine defining herself within the system; she doesn't take that chance to join with Joan and create something on her own terms, she wants to jockey for position in the hierarchy of McCann, finding small battles like the Chevalier account to assert her standing. And yes, seeing her helping a young employee who is demonstrating potential, like Don did for her, would've gone a long way towards fixing that. On the big list of writer's topics that they wanted to cover, I would've loved seeing the "Wall Street selling to the salesmen" angle. There was probably a lot of fun to be had with these cynical advertising types falling prey to the very tactics they claim to be so savvy about. Doubly so if it involved, say, Harry Crane being snowed into a big stock buy that we know is going to tank in the long run. (I could also imagine that would've been an avenue to have Harry Hamlin back for one final guest appearance; post-SC&P buyout Jim Cutler has started his second career a self-styled investment guru.)
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Sep 16, 2022 22:19
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JethroMcB posted:I agree with most of the Peggy/Stan sentiments; it felt like a pat, rushed happy ending for the two on my original viewing, but on rewatch it's clear that the seeds were planted all along. (As I noted in spoilers like a year ago, I originally just thought their routine phone calls in S6 were an easy a way to keep Peggy looped in to the SCDP drama after she left for CGC.) I still take issue with how their ending plays out, though. By placing that exchange as the immediate aftermath of Peggy's call with Don, who just said like half a dozen things that trigger "suicide" flags in the viewer's mind, it doesn't let their resolution have room to breathe and stand on its own. The audience's concern is still with Don, so the abrupt turn to the emotional lives of these two makes it feel extra cheap. Yeah I agree with this pretty much 100%. I was thinking earlier that it would've felt better if Peggy and Stan getting together happened in the previous episode, maybe, or two episodes ago. Something to give it a little more room to breathe, like Pete and Trudy's reconciliation. The two things that make it feel pat, for me at least, are when it happens in the episode (like you said) and also just the meta-knowledge that it's the finale and there are only like 20 minutes of show left ever. It feels like something that was crammed in, not because it doesn't make sense, but just because it comes after one of the series finale's most dramatic scenes. Give it a bit more room to breathe and I think it would've worked a lot more smoothly.
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Sep 16, 2022 23:30
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JethroMcB posted:still take issue with how their ending plays out, though. By placing that exchange as the immediate aftermath of Peggy's call with Don, who just said like half a dozen things that trigger "suicide" flags in the viewer's mind, it doesn't let their resolution have room to breathe and stand on its own. It's pretty funny how everything with her conversation with Don is just instantly forgotten because she's got much bigger poo poo to deal with.
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Sep 16, 2022 23:59
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Harrow posted:I was thinking earlier that it would've felt better if Peggy and Stan getting together happened in the previous episode, maybe, or two episodes ago. This is a good point. As it stands, when it happens makes it feel like this moment is supposed to punctuate her arc, like this is her reward. I viewed her story as being more about her own self-confidence in her abilities, feeling certainty in her career ambitions or rejecting the shame she felt over "doing femininity wrong." Peggy being nakedly ambitious in that staff meeting would've said that fine. But this clumsy rom-com beat feels weird, as if that's suddenly more important. "See, she CAN have it all!" Was anyone asking that? I like the idea of her with Stan, but that's not her reward or some consummation we needed to see. I suspect the point of it is that he's a synthesis of Peggy's conflicting wants: he's an option for love and family that doesn't stand in her way professionally. Which...sure, that's nice. But that reveal could've happened any time, without even showing how it started. Maybe he's just incidentally in bed with her at some point...he's clearly into her and they obviously get along, so the "how" of it's not particularly a mystery. If they were going to do a cheesy rom-com ending, the formation of Harris-Olson would've been my pick. Joan and Peggy's conflicting worldviews uniting would've been a way more emotional consummation of their respective stories. But Joan going it alone also slaps, so how she turned out is fine.
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Sep 17, 2022 00:44
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Xealot posted:If they were going to do a cheesy rom-com ending, the formation of Harris-Olson would've been my pick. Joan and Peggy's conflicting worldviews uniting would've been a way more emotional consummation of their respective stories. But Joan going it alone also slaps, so how she turned out is fine. Yeah, Joan's decision feels like the culmination of a lot that has been going on with her across the seasons. Kicking Greg's failure-rear end out of the home was great, and this in many ways an extension of that: Joan realizing that she doesn't NEED anybody else, she can do it all herself, after a lifetime of being told she was designed for the support role. Wife, secretary, office manager, Account Man, they were all roles where she was working to accomplish the goals of other people and that was supposed to be all she needed or wanted. Instead she realized SHE likes to be the one in charge, particularly of her own destiny, and it rules that the "partner" she ends up going with is herself.
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Sep 17, 2022 03:15
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speaking of peggy, still the best moment in the whole series https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WVNRIo_M9Q
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Sep 17, 2022 16:47
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That appalled look on her face is amazing. "THAT was the best I could come up with?" 
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Sep 18, 2022 01:54
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i agree that peggys fate is sad, but i also want to make clear that the show and weiner absolutely do not think it is at all. shes made it!!! yay for peggy!!!!!!!!! #gaslight #gatekeep #girlboss
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Sep 18, 2022 15:30
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She got what she wanted, whether that's ultimately enough is a topic for mad men 2: madder women
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Sep 19, 2022 01:01
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I have a question for the Mad Men thread. What shows would you recommend in terms of like "if you loved Mad Men, you should watch _______"? There are some obvious answers (The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul) but I'm wondering what other shows people would recommend. Mostly I adore Mad Men and I'm hungering for other shows that can scratch an even vaguely similar itch.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:16
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Severance.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:21
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Harrow posted:I have a question for the Mad Men thread. What shows would you recommend in terms of like "if you loved Mad Men, you should watch _______"? There are some obvious answers (The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul) but I'm wondering what other shows people would recommend. The Americans is highly underrated. Also Deadwood
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Sep 19, 2022 01:22
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Rectify. Halt and Catch Fire?
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Sep 19, 2022 01:23
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Gaius Marius posted:The Americans is highly underrated. Also Deadwood Oh yeah I really enjoyed The Americans. I haven't watched Deadwood yet, though, somehow. I'll check it out.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:24
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Deadwood is incredible, you should absolutely watch it. Severance too, plus it's still going!
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Sep 19, 2022 02:18
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If you haven't watched Deadwood, watch it, and then watch the HBO movie.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:19
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Deadwood, HACF and The Leftovers (which I would also recommend to Jerusalem as a show worth doing a recap thread for as it had very low viewership even on these forums, is very rich textually, much shorter than your previous undertakings, and you've seen before so the recaps can be more Sopranos style. It plays VERY interestingly in a post covid world too.) edit i misremembered and think you actually only watched the depressing first season and hated it and didnt get to the part where its all new material and not adapting a book where the show skyrockets from like 70% good to 100% good. but i recommend it to everyone regardless Paper Lion fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 03:03
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I mean if he hated the first season and the next ones are 30% better I dunno why you'd even bother recommending it. the numbers don't add up
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Sep 19, 2022 03:28
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i was just talking about critic metrics, not actual quality. i personally think the show fires on all cylinders the whole way through but only have very minor season 1 issues in that its limited by a source material, theres just a big tone shift for seasons 2 and 3 once lindeloff is allowed to write his own story. some people do not like the tone of season 1 so they consider it a much larger improvement than the people that were already into it. also its pretty reductive to say "only 30%" when thats the difference between a c-/d+ and a perfect score, but idk
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Sep 19, 2022 03:41
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algebra testes posted:Halt and Catch Fire I really enjoyed this one, but they crammed way too much WORLD CHANGING STUFF into too few individuals
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Sep 19, 2022 05:33
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Harrow posted:I have a question for the Mad Men thread. What shows would you recommend in terms of like "if you loved Mad Men, you should watch _______"? There are some obvious answers (The Sopranos, Breaking Bad, Better Call Saul) but I'm wondering what other shows people would recommend. To recommend something a bit different, for period pieces I'm not sure what the critical consensus is but I'm really enjoying The Crown, and for a lighter toned 60's piece maybe Mrs Maisel?
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Sep 19, 2022 11:08
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babylon berlin is an entertaining enough interwar-period crime show, so it at least tickles the costume drama-nerves just the right way
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Sep 19, 2022 18:15
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ulvir posted:babylon berlin is an entertaining enough interwar-period crime show, so it at least tickles the costume drama-nerves just the right way Deutschland 83-89 is another quality period German show.
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Sep 19, 2022 18:17
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halt and catch fire if you can stomach the aggressively mediocre first seasonGoutPatrol posted:If you haven't watched Deadwood, watch it, and then watch the HBO movie. the movie is really bad but the show is an all timer for sure
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Sep 19, 2022 20:38
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If you can stomach the subject matter (family in the early aughts runs a funeral business) I'd recommend Six Feet Under, I remember that being a pretty solid watch. Like if the idea of watching several of the same characters grow and evolve through the years was a big draw of Mad Men for you I'd say they're similar in that regard. Protagonist of that one is also a fuckboy type who's constantly trying to do better by his family and failing but is (usually) stellar in his work life, a la Don
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Sep 19, 2022 20:41
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Lady Radia posted:halt and catch fire if you can stomach the aggressively mediocre first season I was sorta wondering about that. I tried watching Halt and Catch Fire when it first started and couldn't get into it, dropped off around halfway through the first season. Though I have heard it gets a lot better after the first season so maybe I should give it another shot.
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Sep 19, 2022 21:09
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Harrow posted:I was sorta wondering about that. I tried watching Halt and Catch Fire when it first started and couldn't get into it, dropped off around halfway through the first season. Though I have heard it gets a lot better after the first season so maybe I should give it another shot. It actually took me an entire year to watch Halt and Catch Fire, then I ran through the following three seasons in a couple weeks.
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Sep 19, 2022 21:28
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Lots of good shows listed, but yeah The Sopranos is definitely the closest analogue and shares some writers Or you could always watch Detoiters to get some more insights into the world of advertising
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Sep 19, 2022 22:36
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I happened to start watching Minx just after rewatching Mad Men. A different direction on many things, but the pattern of personal hang-ups vs letting the business succeed had a familiar vibe.
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Sep 19, 2022 23:20
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Lady Radia posted:halt and catch fire if you can stomach the aggressively mediocre first season It was a several steps below the show. Considering it was 15 years later and part of the promotion for the film was "Milch has early signs of Alzheimer's, this is the last thing he's ever gonna do" it was not terrible.
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Sep 20, 2022 00:07
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Blood Nightmaster posted:If you can stomach the subject matter (family in the early aughts runs a funeral business) I'd recommend Six Feet Under, I remember that being a pretty solid watch. Like if the idea of watching several of the same characters grow and evolve through the years was a big draw of Mad Men for you I'd say they're similar in that regard. Protagonist of that one is also a fuckboy type who's constantly trying to do better by his family and failing but is (usually) stellar in his work life, a la Don This is one of my Top 5 All Time Shows. It's just so good, and it's wild that Alan Ball got to make it at all. I actually prefer it to The Sopranos. It also helped me deal with the grief of my father's passing on a rewatch and my existential panic regarding my own mortality the first time through. I can't recommend it highly enough.
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Sep 20, 2022 08:59
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