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Shibawanko posted:yeah that's the big thing that's missing, the sense that the elves and numenor and all of these cultures are really foreign, in their general outlook as immortals or mortals or just because of their history. it looks flashy but everything feels strangely modern and on the nose I'm reminded of this review that really get into how good Tolkien was at creating characters and a narrative voice that felt authentically pre-modern, and how the average fantasy novelist really can't be bothered. It's rather long but I think it describes well a phenomenon that's endemic to the genre: http://strangehorizons.com/non-fiction/reviews/the-name-of-the-wind-by-patrick-rothfuss-and-the-children-of-hurin-by-j-r-r-tolkien/
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Sep 17, 2022 20:26
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I mean it doesn’t help matters that the voice of authenticity in TV today is to just cast everything into modern American voices. Like it’s fun to see BSG guys acting like 9/11 era USAF pilots because that’s the joke. But then “they’re just like us” becomes the standard template and not the exception E: when I’m in Palo Alto I like to look at the giant tree that the town is named after and imagine a company of 20-something Spanish expeditionary soldiers cracking jokes about the “Big Twig” and I feel a kinship with them, but at a certain point you want some alien-ness again
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Sep 17, 2022 20:31
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Shibawanko posted:yeah that's the big thing that's missing, the sense that the elves and numenor and all of these cultures are really foreign, in their general outlook as immortals or mortals or just because of their history. it looks flashy but everything feels strangely modern and on the nose Man there are so many things to not like about the show and I’m continually amazed at the strange complaints people have.
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Sep 17, 2022 20:46
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ep4 review: it's coming along it's still very slow but trajectory is good i am giving them a lot of leeway since they're 3000 years of history into a much smaller amount of time and I guess Galadriel visiting Numenor (the entire arc is really dumb) is just an excuse to get Numenor to invade Middle Earth and fight Sauron. Still, there were better ways to have done it.
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Sep 18, 2022 02:45
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The Rings of Power:alcaras posted:Still, there were better ways to have done it.
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Sep 18, 2022 03:25
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OctaviusBeaver posted:The reason they can't imitate Tolkien is because they aren't from that generation. Tolkien spoke Gothic and Latin and Old English, he actually understood other cultures and could write from other perspectives. We don't really teach history or ancient languages any more, so it makes sense that the only thing they can write is a reskinned 2016 USA. Their minds don't encompass anything else. If it happened before Twitter then it doesn't exist as far as the writers are concerned. That's why the elves wear identical uniforms and bitch about army rules, because what soldiers do now and that's all the writers know. That's why Galadriel is a loose cannon cop, because they have nothing to draw from except American pop culture. This is pretty much how I, as European and aging Gen-Xer, often feel about contemporary cinema and tv. Everything is a meme, trope or allegory of American politics and society. And often as a regurgigated and more shallow variant than in past iterations. It's that kind of US-centric writing that will likely ruin the next season of The Boys, if they turn Homelander into an icon for Trump voters. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 12:35 on Sep 18, 2022 |
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Sep 18, 2022 12:07
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I don't think modern writers necessarily lack perspective. I think the biggest issue is how formulaic everything is required to be now. In the 80's you could just go make whatever crazy rear end movie. Now so many movies are formulaic because they know that kind of movie makes money and so there's less willingness to take risks or produce something original. Look at like Marvel movies. If you've seen one you've seen them all. There's a comfortable formula they use and it's largely followed to the letter.
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Sep 18, 2022 19:04
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Even Tolkien in lotr was framing stuff in terms of contemporary politics. It’s unavoidable . I mean doestoyevsky is thoroughly immersed in 19th century Russian politics but it’s still good !! I think the main issue is the show is not great
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Sep 18, 2022 22:48
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I love how people see “the immigrants will take our jobs” and jump to “they’re injecting contemporary American politics into the show!” As if that’s not a tale as old as time. The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. Xenophobia is not a new thing folks.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:24
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I am pretty sure the reason for the Numenorian invasion of the Undying Lands had like 100% to do with Sauron poisoning the humans’ minds with “why do they get to be there and also be immortal and not us” and not DEY TOOK OUR JERBSSS
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Sep 18, 2022 23:33
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jeeves posted:I am pretty sure the reason for the Numenorian invasion of the Undying Lands had like 100% to do with Sauron poisoning the humans’ minds with “why do they get to be there and also be immortal and not us” and not DEY TOOK OUR JERBSSS I mean both are incorrect. Sauron pushed them over the edge but the cloud had long been over Numenor progressively driving them to be tyrannical and reactionary against the Valar, Elves, and Middle Men.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:39
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Mahoning posted:I love how people see “the immigrants will take our jobs” and jump to “they’re injecting contemporary American politics into the show!” As if that’s not a tale as old as time. The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. Yes I'm sure the Chinese Exclusion Act is what they had in mind while writing that scene.
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Sep 18, 2022 23:51
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I just think it's amusing imagining the economics of Middle Earth. Elves have crafts and trades but do they use a monetary system? Do they have guild unions and supply quotas?
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Sep 18, 2022 23:53
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Gonna be honest, I really want to enjoy the Rings of Power, and I mostly am. I think the casting is fine for the most part, I'm fine with some of the changes and grudgingly tolerant of others (Galadriel). But... I am really not digging the Numenor plotline. Like, at all. The actual design of Numenor is excellent and I think the casting is fine for the most part (Pharazon is actually really good, IMO!), but I don't like a lot of the decisions made surrounding it. I'm not going to nitpick it too closely, but Numenor in general just feels very off from what I imagined, and it's a shame because I feel like it has the best source material to work with? But maybe I'm just being too judgmental, idk
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Sep 19, 2022 00:02
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SerSpook posted:Gonna be honest, I really want to enjoy the Rings of Power, and I mostly am. I think the casting is fine for the most part, I'm fine with some of the changes and grudgingly tolerant of others (Galadriel). But... I am really not digging the Numenor plotline. Like, at all. The actual design of Numenor is excellent and I think the casting is fine for the most part (Pharazon is actually really good, IMO!), but I don't like a lot of the decisions made surrounding it. I'm getting some strong "15th century Northern Italy city-states, but with more marble" vibes from it somehow and I'm not sure yet if I like that. Some sets like the royal court remind me of renaissance paintings.
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Sep 19, 2022 00:07
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OctaviusBeaver posted:Yes I'm sure the Chinese Exclusion Act is what they had in mind while writing that scene. Way to miss the point.
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Sep 19, 2022 00:18
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Arc Hammer posted:I just think it's amusing imagining the economics of Middle Earth. Elves have crafts and trades but do they use a monetary system? Do they have guild unions and supply quotas? I have wanted to say for a few pages, Elves working is not really something I ever envisioned, for whatever reason. I figured they hang out and sing songs and whatnot, when they aren’t hunting orcs.
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Sep 19, 2022 00:23
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I just realized that the U-S-A chant would work pretty well with NU-ME-NOR and I hope the writers use it when Pharazon usurps power.
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Sep 19, 2022 00:24
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BoldFace posted:I just realized that the U-S-A chant would work pretty well with NU-ME-NOR and I hope the writers use it when Pharazon usurps power. They'll need to work in Miriel saying : https://www.starwars.com/video/so-this-is-how-liberty-dies
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Sep 19, 2022 00:30
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Mahoning posted:I love how people see “the immigrants will take our jobs” and jump to “they’re injecting contemporary American politics into the show!” As if that’s not a tale as old as time. The Chinese Exclusion Act was passed in 1882. The problem is that they are introducing banal concepts to a high fantasy setting, thereby dragging it into the muck of real world issues. Is it worth reducing all the ambience of Tolkien's world down to the lowest common denominator, to make sure that any viewer can understand it? Have they captured the magic of the source material at any point so far? I can't think of anything memorable. Maybe except for the scenes with the Stranger and the red intro scene from the war against Morgoth. Someone described Galadriel as a loose cannon cop earlier. Gil-galad as petty politician. Arondir as a war-weary Iraq veteran. Valinor as asylum for inconvenient elves. Numenor as island of chuds. Hammerstein fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 00:31
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Of all the things to complain about in that episode, I wasn't expecting Númenoreans expressing xenophobia in the same dumb way that xenophobia is always expressed to be on the list at all. This is a mass-market television show. They want to make sure that viewers notice the important parts. "The people of Númenor irrationally resent elves" is a major theme, so just in case you hadn't noticed it already, they put a scene in near the beginning with like a hundred extras where a guy is irrationally resenting elves. "Galadriel treats every situation like it's the battlefield" is a consistent trait of her character from the start of the show, but for those in the back, they had Halbrand state it outright, so that when she stops doing that it'll be more noticeable that she changed. (Though I do think that having him mansplain Miriel's situation was unfortunate.) This coming Friday I bet we're going to have Poppy say something about being treated like a part of Nori's family. I'm the last person you'll ever hear say "turn off your brain," but I think that it is important to recognize the signals a story sends about how it is going to be told.
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Sep 19, 2022 00:39
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MrMojok posted:I have wanted to say for a few pages, Elves working is not really something I ever envisioned, for whatever reason. As they say, there are Klingons who make toilet seats, Klingons who sell insurance …
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Sep 19, 2022 01:09
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Saruman in lotr is a straight up allegory on 1930s-1940s “authoritarian” demagogues using media (radio)to entrance people. It’s always been part of Tolkien
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Sep 19, 2022 01:18
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Hammerstein posted:The problem is that they are introducing banal concepts to a high fantasy setting, thereby dragging it into the muck of real world issues. Is it worth reducing all the ambience of Tolkien's world down to the lowest common denominator, to make sure that any viewer can understand it? Are you insinuating that xenophobia is a banal concept? In a fantasy series dripping with fear and hatred of other races?
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Sep 19, 2022 01:19
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euphronius posted:Saruman in lotr is a straight up allegory on 1930s-1940s “authoritarian” demagogues using media (radio)to entrance people. It’s always been part of Tolkien Remember the developmental versions of Saruman's speech trying to sway Gandalf? It's all extremely ripped-from-the-headlines appeasement rhetoric, "we are so smart we'll be able to steer the fascists when they take power" stuff, even more so than the final text
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Sep 19, 2022 01:27
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No what home is it in ? I stopped at book 3 I think
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Sep 19, 2022 01:29
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Whichever one covered the development of Fellowship, The Return of the Shadow (VI) I'd guess
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Sep 19, 2022 01:30
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Once I finish wheel of time I will go back to those Thanks
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Sep 19, 2022 01:31
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I've been stuck 2/3 through The Great Hunt for about 6 months now I can only make it about a sentence at a time this run through lol that Corey Olsen is taking some snide potshots at it lately
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Sep 19, 2022 01:33
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Book 4 is banger so push thru There is one scene in the beginning of book 4 that just kind of teleports the story to a new level I heard it slows down in book like 10 or so
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Sep 19, 2022 01:35
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Yeah I've been through it all once before, but this time I know what's coming so I know what to watch for. Yet somehow that makes it worse
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Sep 19, 2022 01:36
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Mahoning posted:Are you insinuating that xenophobia is a banal concept? In a fantasy series dripping with fear and hatred of other races? Is it? Because the fantasy series I read has been promoting the idea that cooperation and friendship across ethnic boundaries ultimately leads to the achievement of mutual goals. And in one of the Faramir chapters the author even finds kind words for a fallen enemy from a hostile country.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:39
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Hammerstein posted:Is it? Because the fantasy series I read has been promoting the idea that cooperation and friendship across ethnic boundaries ultimately leads to the achievement of mutual goals. And in one of the Faramir chapters the author even finds kind words for a fallen enemy from a hostile country. Perhaps you misread my comment, I didn’t say it ENDORSED xenophobia. But it does contain it as a central concept and to your point rebukes it. It is one of the themes of the book.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:45
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Hammerstein posted:Is it? Because the fantasy series I read has been promoting the idea that cooperation and friendship across ethnic boundaries ultimately leads to the achievement of mutual goals. And in one of the Faramir chapters the author even finds kind words for a fallen enemy from a hostile country. In this TV show, the protagonists are generally open to cooperation with outsiders, whereas their antagonists tend to be more guarded or hostile.
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Sep 19, 2022 01:47
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Not sure why they went with xenophobia when the perfectly good motive of envy and distrust was right there.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:09
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Mahoning posted:Perhaps you misread my comment, I didn’t say it ENDORSED xenophobia. But it does contain it as a central concept and to your point rebukes it. It is one of the themes of the book. Rebuke it? I pointed out your error when you described Tolkien's work as quote:a fantasy series dripping with fear and hatred of other races while forgetting that another core theme are tolerance and overcoming prejudice.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:12
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Ravenfood posted:Not sure why they went with xenophobia when the perfectly good motive of envy and distrust was right there. As I posted in the show thread, it seems to me that the book angle of "Númenor's upper crust is obsessed with death, so Armenelos is full of necromancers and snake-oil salesmen selling potions and spells to prolong your life, and alchemical embalmers hovering around the palaces promising to preserve your corpse after you die" would be plenty drat cinematic, and kind of novel for TV at that. Imagine billboards all over the city for long-life elixirs and everywhere you look is a bigger LOOK ON MY WORKS YE MIGHTY AND DESPAIR statue being erected than the one just down the street The bar fight scene having the union guys making fun of the Low Man for "only" living to 80; "drat, I wish I looked that good when I hit 200  "
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Sep 19, 2022 02:12
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Data Graham posted:Yeah I've been through it all once before, but this time I know what's coming so I know what to watch for. Yet somehow that makes it worse I found the so-called slog of 7-10 a lot more enjoyable knowing it was The Middle than I did reading the series when there only were ten books and no one was sure how close the end was. Then again, my last time or two through the series was by audiobook, which just ... keeps going, while I'm commuting or washing dishes.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:14
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Ravenfood posted:Not sure why they went with xenophobia when the perfectly good motive of envy and distrust was right there. Xenophobes often feel envy and distrust for foreigners.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:14
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Hammerstein posted:Rebuke it? I pointed out your error when you described Tolkien's work as Tolkien's work contains many important instances of characters who express fear and hatred of other races. It also contains many important instances of characters pointedly refraining from doing this. You might say that xenophobia, which is to say the fear and hatred of other races, is a very common topic for his work to discuss; you might more poetically express that his work is dripping with it.
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Sep 19, 2022 02:30
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