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Perhaps, at long last, the libs have finally been owned
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Sep 19, 2022 16:00
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The point of referring to it as a term of abuse is not to conflate it with domestic abuse, ffs. It's that it's a pejorative that lacks meaningful content distinctions; all targets are equally accused of being "libs", which does more to define them as an outgroup than say anything useful about what their beliefs are. If, to wit, "liberal" is conflated with "anyone not my form of socialist", the term stops having value and discussion becomes impossible.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:00
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Please don't get into a multi-page derail about how different dictionaries define a word. I was wondering when this was going to come up. Biden and his administration pulling back and forth about what the US would do if China invaded Taiwan is pretty par for the course. "Defend" is a murky word. Not pleased about the pandemic comment since it sounds like the kind of thing that comes to haunt you, but this country is all gung ho about moving forward. I'm a little surprised neither of these comments have gotten a lot of headline exposure, but I'm also not lurking on Yahoo News or Fox News, so my view might be blinkered.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:00
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Looks like the media got a hold of fake brochures given to the asylum-seeking migrants from Venezuela that Ron DeSantis and Co lured onto an airplane to fly to MA https://twitter.com/marisakabas/status/1571849207174123522?s=46&t=y9msLPzHaQVXi7LGAPKFVw
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Sep 19, 2022 16:04
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FlamingLiberal posted:Looks like the media got a hold of fake brochures given to the asylum-seeking migrants from Venezuela that Ron DeSantis and Co lured onto an airplane to fly to MA This is insane. What an insane and hateful thing to do. These people have completely lost it.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:05
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E;fb Judd Legum, thinkprogress founder and current substacker, was given one of the brochures that was provided to induce folks onto the Martha's Vineyards flight: https://mobile.twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1571841197148102656 https://mobile.twitter.com/JuddLegum/status/1571842325743108097 This aligns with other reporting and runs counter to GOP denials of any such inducement. My guess is this still fizzles without consequences (other than for the asylum seekers), in part because it'd seem trivial for the fuckwits to argue that they've only provided correct information about the benefits provided to refugees and it's the asylum seekers' fault if they thought the benefits were being offered to them as they should understand the difference in status.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:05
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FlamingLiberal posted:Looks like the media got a hold of fake brochures given to the asylum-seeking migrants from Venezuela that Ron DeSantis and Co lured onto an airplane to fly to MA If those are actually what they gave out to the migrants and they also verbally promised/assured the same things, then that would be a crime if done by a private individual. DeSantis has 5 layers of obfuscation and is working in a "public" capacity, so there is a 99% chance that nothing happens to him. But, still pretty wild.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:07
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I'd love to know (a) Who typed that up, (b) who translated it, (c) who approved that horrendous kerning on the left fold, and (d) why the hell anyone would think the listed benefits for asylum seekers are a bad thing.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:16
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Tiny Timbs posted:This is insane. What an insane and hateful thing to do. These people have completely lost it. This has got to be illegal.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:18
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Oracle posted:This has got to be illegal. That only matters if someone makes it matter. Who's going to arrest DeSantis?
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Sep 19, 2022 16:21
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It's possible for there to be legal consequences for this event other than "arrest the governor of Florida".
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Sep 19, 2022 16:24
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Discendo Vox posted:It's possible for there to be legal consequences for this event other than "arrest the governor of Florida". I mean that'd be enough for me, also maybe get all the money he filtered to his cronies back and give it to these people for the suffering they've endured.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:28
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socialsecurity posted:I mean that'd be enough for me, also maybe get all the money he filtered to his cronies back and give it to these people for the suffering they've endured. I would say the best thing they could do is demand the state repay the ARPA funds used to fund this political stunt as I'm pretty sure it falls well outside the limitations put on its use.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:29
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Oracle posted:This has got to be illegal. And just to clarify, this was already insane and hateful to begin with but finding out they also did the work to turn it into some psycho episode of a Nathan Fielder show really puts the cherry on top.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:30
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Discendo Vox posted:It's possible for there to be legal consequences for this event other than "arrest the governor of Florida".
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Sep 19, 2022 16:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Fascism is a reaction against capitalism/ liberalism. It is an incoherent assertion to state liberals ally with fascists, consequently. It is conservatives who ally with fascists because they are also a reaction against capitalism/liberalism. Fascism is not a reaction against capitalism, it is reaction *in favour* of capitalism. The purpose of fascism is to accelerate the mechanism of capitalist accumulation in order to concentrate power. Fascism stands against the egalitarian aspects of political liberalism, and for the classically liberal economic system. These two things are separate from each other. It's wrong to conflate modern political liberalism with capitalism. quote:Is fascism a rejection of modernity / liberalism ? Yes, but not of capitalism. Thus liberals can side with fascists, as they may feel it's in their self-interest to safeguard elitist institutions from the influence of mass politics. Of course a liberal may also oppose fascism, if they prefer to place restraints on the natural workings of capitalism for moral or practical reasons. If your analysis reduces all of liberalism into one homogeneous bloc, and forces capitalism into that concept as well, then it's not very useful for describing reality. Imo.
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Sep 19, 2022 16:46
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MA should fully honor everything in that brochure, and then make FL pay for it. I know neither is going to happen, sadly. But it'd be one hell of a power play.
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Sep 19, 2022 17:02
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DeadlyMuffin posted:There's a huge spectrum between "that the government should stay out of the affairs of private industry" and public ownership of the means of production. You asked me for my personal definition and I provided. How do you define liberal?
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Sep 19, 2022 17:16
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Tayter Swift posted:I'd love to know (a) Who typed that up, (b) who translated it, (c) who approved that horrendous kerning on the left fold, and (d) why the hell anyone would think the listed benefits for asylum seekers are a bad thing. The English text, at least, looks to be direct copy-pastes from official Massachusetts government webpages describing services offered by the MA Office for Refugees and Immigrants. As for the terrible kerning, I'd imagine someone accidentally left the left fold in justified alignment, and no one noticed till after they'd already printed a bunch. There's absolutely going to be legal action taken, but it's probably not going to get anywhere today, tomorrow, or even this week. The system's way too slow to TV/IV.
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Sep 19, 2022 17:19
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Main Paineframe posted:The English text, at least, looks to be direct copy-pastes from official Massachusetts government webpages describing services offered by the MA Office for Refugees and Immigrants. What would legal action accomplish? Absolute best case scenario a few years from now Florida gets a slap on the wrist with a stern finger wag and loses maaaaaybe some money. Maybe. Personally not even expecting that but let's roll with it for the sake of the argument. So what? They'd do it again in a heartbeat to own more libs, and my gut feeling is they'll do a lot more of it right now coming up. It's all wins across the board for the people doing this. Why would they stop?
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Sep 19, 2022 17:31
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FlamingLiberal posted:Looks like the media got a hold of fake brochures given to the asylum-seeking migrants from Venezuela that Ron DeSantis and Co lured onto an airplane to fly to MA https://twitter.com/unoriginaljohn/status/1571882742991683587
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Sep 19, 2022 17:38
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Fister Roboto posted:You asked me for my personal definition and I provided. How do you define liberal? I try not to use the term much because I think it's loaded and unclear. My dictionary definition of liberal would be someone who believes in individual liberty and equality before the law, but that is obviously not how the term is used on these forums or in regular conversation. It is a loaded term and so there are many people on the right and the left who believe in individual liberty and equality before the law who would absolutely never self-identity as a liberal. I also don't think that individual liberty and equality before the law are what people refer to when they talk about the failures of liberalism, or the like. In practice, on these forums it often seems to mean "anyone to my right that I don't like" So that's a long way to say that I don't really have a definition that fits for the forums Edit: in common usage I do use "liberal" as the opposite of "conservative" in subjects completely independent of politics. Something like "those tolerances are too tight, rather than be so conservative, consider a more liberal approach" DeadlyMuffin fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Sep 19, 2022 |
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Sep 19, 2022 17:41
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DeadlyMuffin posted:I try not to use the term much because I think it's loaded and unclear. Thanks for replying. Unfortunately this definition seems to be even broader than mine, so it makes your critique of my definition pretty ironic. In any case the conversation here has moved on, so if you want to argue about it in the CCCC thread feel free 
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Sep 19, 2022 17:45
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Someone make spreadsheet listing all the times liberals allied with fascists and all the times leftists allied with fascists. Then using the COUNTA function we will finally know the answer to this question
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Sep 19, 2022 17:55
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Phlag posted:The flag on the first page is not the actual MA flag. It was an unofficial redesign done by a random dude on the internet. To be fair the current Massachusetts flag does blow, which is why they're trying to change it. Still this helps illustrate the cartoonish level of hate and incompetence on display from the DeSantis Cartel
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Sep 19, 2022 18:02
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Delthalaz posted:Someone make spreadsheet listing all the times liberals allied with fascists and all the times leftists allied with fascists. Then using the COUNTA function we will finally know the answer to this question What about leftists who are also a liberal that have allied with a fascist?
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Sep 19, 2022 18:05
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Don't most printers now print, invisible to the naked eye, dots that translate on what printer it was printed on so that it can be traced by law enforcement?
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Sep 19, 2022 18:08
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Quixotic1 posted:Don't most printers now print, invisible to the naked eye, dots that translate on what printer it was printed on so that it can be traced by law enforcement? Yes https://youtu.be/XNmYr2_uvGU
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Sep 19, 2022 18:10
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Quixotic1 posted:Don't most printers now print, invisible to the naked eye, dots that translate on what printer it was printed on so that it can be traced by law enforcement? Color laser printers and copiers, yes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_Identification_Code
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Sep 19, 2022 18:12
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Quixotic1 posted:Don't most printers now print, invisible to the naked eye, dots that translate on what printer it was printed on so that it can be traced by law enforcement? Yeah, but it doesn't really matter in this case. They already know who was passing out the brochures. If the information in those brochures is actually directly copied from the Massachusetts state website and there were no explicit promises of employment/money/housing, then they technically didn't do anything illegal. The attorney of one of the migrants said that they were "promised" housing, money, and jobs. But, it isn't clear exactly what was said or who said it. It's possible that they just did a lovely thing instead of an explicitly illegal thing, but it's not really clear from the information we have. If the allegations about falsified paperwork or promises of compensation are true, then some people might be liable.
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Sep 19, 2022 18:19
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, but it doesn't really matter in this case. They already know who was passing out the brochures.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:05
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fart_man_69 posted:The purpose of fascism is to accelerate the mechanism of capitalist accumulation in order to concentrate power. Oh man bad news for all those Marxists that thought capitalism was a phase societies have to pass through on their way to socialism/communism.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:09
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:Yeah, but it doesn't really matter in this case. They already know who was passing out the brochures. It appears that at a minimum the brochure misrepresents its source and misrepresents what resources are available to whom. The brochure appears to deliberately cut out language on the context of, for example, the benefits material it promises in the center page.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:10
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Velocity Raptor posted:MA should fully honor everything in that brochure, and then make FL pay for it. I know neither is going to happen, sadly. But it'd be one hell of a power play. CA cities have sued & won or settled when cities in other states gave homeless & mentally ill patients one-way bus tickets to San Francisco, LA, etc. Even if you ignore all the blatantly illegal stuff about the immigrant stunt, there's precedent for making FL pay for it.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:25
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Oh man bad news for all those Marxists that thought capitalism was a phase societies have to pass through on their way to socialism/communism. Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but surely Marxists do not mean that capitalism accelerating to fascism is a necessary precondition of socialism. Rather, the development of capitalism must be halted before that happens, by establishing socialism / communism.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:26
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fart_man_69 posted:Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying here, but surely Marxists do not mean that capitalism accelerating to fascism is a necessary precondition of socialism. Rather, the development of capitalism must be halted before that happens, by establishing socialism / communism. Nah capitalism is a state that is passed through on the way to socialism. before the Russian revolution there was a great deal of back and forth about can we have the revolution or not because we are still in feudalism here. After the revolution they had to do the NEP to bring in markets before they could collectivise and nationalize. In China you have similar thoughts with the Dengists, where they actively developed capitalism in China as a necessary precondition to developing socialism from it by nationalizing the firms capitalists were given the freedom to grow. Like this is an idea even back in Marx’s and Engel’s writings.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:34
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idiotsavant posted:CA cities have sued & won or settled when cities in other states gave homeless & mentally ill patients one-way bus tickets to San Francisco, LA, etc. Even if you ignore all the blatantly illegal stuff about the immigrant stunt, there's precedent for making FL pay for it.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:40
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Foxfire_ posted:Do you have any case names for me to look up to read more on those? It sounds hard/interesting since the other state would either need to waive sovereignty and opt-in to the lawsuit, or it'd be Supreme Court original jurisdiction. One I remember: https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/san-francisco-patient-dumping-incident-costs-nevada-400000/406955/ quote:* San Francisco City Attorney Dennis Herrera filed a lawsuit against Nevada in 2013, claiming a state-run psychiatric hospital, Rawson-Neal in Las Vegas, bused patients to the San Francisco area without plans for their care. At least two dozen patients sent to San Francisco required medical care and housing costing $500,000 of city funds.
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Sep 19, 2022 19:49
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Phlag posted:The flag on the first page is not the actual MA flag. It was an unofficial redesign done by a random dude on the internet. No ring
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Sep 19, 2022 19:56
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Foxfire_ posted:Do you have any case names for me to look up to read more on those? It sounds hard/interesting since the other state would either need to waive sovereignty and opt-in to the lawsuit, or it'd be Supreme Court original jurisdiction. I believe OP is referencing a 2013-2015 era suit between SF and a Nevada hospital that resulted in a settlement between the two states. I'd recommend doing research into the "Homeward Bound" program, the name of an older California program thats a staple basically everywhere: moving the unhoused to places with their family networks remains a pretty popular thing to implement, efficacy be damned.
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Sep 19, 2022 20:01
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