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A Buttery Pastry posted:Paradox isn't ready to make the Savage/Barbarous/Half Civilized/Civilized/Enlightened division of the world a mechanical reality. I wonder if some modmaker is going to make this a mapmode? 
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Sep 19, 2022 18:47
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DrSunshine posted:I wonder if some modmaker is going to make this a mapmode?
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Sep 19, 2022 18:50
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 For those not in on the joke, behold a map as drawn by the Least Racist 19th Century American aka the design document for v2s civilization system
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Sep 19, 2022 18:54
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So one thing the dev diaries, AARs, and gameplay streams have never really clarified for me is -- do you actually need Aristocrats for some of the production methods? Like, if a plantation has 1/100 aristocrats employed but 10,000/10,000 laborers, does that " " "labor shortage" " " actually affect production? Or is the Aristocrat job so easy to qualify for that the situation is never likely to come up?
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Sep 19, 2022 23:49
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CrypticTriptych posted:So one thing the dev diaries, AARs, and gameplay streams have never really clarified for me is -- do you actually need Aristocrats for some of the production methods? Like, if a plantation has 1/100 aristocrats employed but 10,000/10,000 laborers, does that " " "labor shortage" " " actually affect production? Or is the Aristocrat job so easy to qualify for that the situation is never likely to come up? I think it depends on your laws. I believe they have said in like, a communist worker's state, you genuinely would not have any capitalist or aristocrat pops and all the buildings would operate without them. In a more standard capitalist or pre-industrial state, they might have something where buildings have aristocrats required to "own" them to be allowed to operate, not because they are actually doing any work but because the legal situation simply does not allow for labourers to come in and work on enclosed but unused property. *edit* actually, I have a vague memory of one of the dev diaries mentioning that the way workers get paid now is that they have a wage that is paid by the owner of the building, so I suspect the "1/100 aristocrats, 10,000/10,000 labourers" scenario probably wouldn't happen because that 1 aristocrat wouldn't have the money to hire all those labourers. So the number of aristocrats would likely act as a sort of soft cap on how much of the labour capacity of a building can actually be used, with more of them being able to pool more money and thus hire more workers. There might be some wiggle room there if the goods they are producing are obscenely profitable and let a small number of aristocrats expand their workforce more quickly. The Cheshire Cat fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Sep 20, 2022 |
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Sep 20, 2022 00:29
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it would be very funny if britain's army officers pulled from the aristocrats and you could kill them off so hard the british economy collapses because there's nobody around for the plucky orphan laborers to tip their caps and say "guv'nor" to
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Sep 20, 2022 01:03
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this is the first game in a loving long while im counting the days until it releases.
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Sep 20, 2022 01:03
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It’s a production method and not a law IIRC. Privately owned Vs. Market/publicly owned vs collectively owned Vs who knows what else
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Sep 20, 2022 01:14
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Will Vicky 3 allow me to form JDPON?
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Sep 20, 2022 01:18
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unwantedplatypus posted:Will Vicky 3 allow me to form JDPON? How will you invent Maoism before Mao??
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Sep 20, 2022 01:20
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Lady Radia posted:It’s a production method and not a law IIRC. Privately owned Vs. Market/publicly owned vs collectively owned Vs who knows what else I have the vague memory that the production methods are gated by laws, though? I.E. You can't use collective production methods unless you've passed Communist laws.
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Sep 20, 2022 01:46
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DrSunshine posted:How will you invent Maoism before Mao?? accelerationism
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Sep 20, 2022 01:47
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Tomn posted:I have the vague memory that the production methods are gated by laws, though? I.E. You can't use collective production methods unless you've passed Communist laws.
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Sep 20, 2022 01:48
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DrSunshine posted:How will you invent Maoism before Mao?? you can form italy 1000 years early in crusader kings. chaos reigns and nothing matters
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Sep 20, 2022 01:50
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Tomn posted:I have the vague memory that the production methods are gated by laws, though? I.E. You can't use collective production methods unless you've passed Communist laws. well also tech, but ya was just clarifying it's not just a law thing, your laws can allow multiple and the like
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Sep 20, 2022 02:24
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Iirc the Japan stream had some advanced production methods change resource buildings from artisan production to privately owned
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Sep 20, 2022 03:32
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The Cheshire Cat posted:*edit* actually, I have a vague memory of one of the dev diaries mentioning that the way workers get paid now is that they have a wage that is paid by the owner of the building, so I suspect the "1/100 aristocrats, 10,000/10,000 labourers" scenario probably wouldn't happen because that 1 aristocrat wouldn't have the money to hire all those labourers. So the number of aristocrats would likely act as a sort of soft cap on how much of the labour capacity of a building can actually be used, with more of them being able to pool more money and thus hire more workers. There might be some wiggle room there if the goods they are producing are obscenely profitable and let a small number of aristocrats expand their workforce more quickly.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:33
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That's something I don't understand, having certain production methods incompatible with certain ownership structures.
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Sep 20, 2022 05:50
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Cease to Hope posted:you can form italy 1000 years early in crusader kings. chaos reigns and nothing matters the first kingdom of Italy predates crusader kings by hundreds of years
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Sep 20, 2022 05:54
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Wouldn't that aristocrat get a ton of money from effectively owning all those laborers? Like, you have a farm with 10,000 laborers and a single aristocrat. At the end of the month, the farm sees a profit of 100k gold, from which is subtracted the labor cost of 1 gold/laborer. The aristocrat takes the remaining 90k and uses it to buy a clipper. The aristocrat doesn't need to have cash on hand as long as the farm is making enough money to pay the workers, it's only when it stops being immensely profitable they run into problems when they stop meeting their basic needs for a monthly clipper. This problem would (potentially) be caused if you didn't have enough people with enough wealth to call themselves "aristocrats". I don't know if this is how it works, but it could reasonably be a condition that you need to be able to afford fancy clothes and furniture if you want to call yourself an aristocrat. If literally everyone in your country is dirt poor and luxury clothes are expensive, that could get in the way of setting up plantations. I'm not sure this is how it will actually work, but I think that's what the initial question actually was with regards to aristocrats. "Could a shortage of aristocrats be a potential problem?" I'd be curious if we got a concrete answer to that myself.
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Sep 20, 2022 06:30
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Eiba posted:I think the issue would be that there would be some arbitrary production penalties for not having enough aristocrats to manage all those farms. It would make sense. If you just have one guy keeping an eye on everyone your ten thousand farmers would spend a lot more time doing "inefficient" subsistence things like "making sure they can feed their family" rather than making money. So the building wouldn't be profitable and no one would make much money. In game this just means working at [small number]% efficiency if all the aristocrat jobs aren't filled.
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Sep 20, 2022 08:29
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Sometimes the thread re-invents communism, sometimes it re-invents feudalism
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Sep 20, 2022 08:35
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I was thinking how it would be cool if factories also produced "class consciousness" alongside their actual product, like how Government buildings produce "bureaucracy". Might be a good basis for a Marxism mod. Then instead of Interest Groups you'd have classes with different levels of consciousness. Do University buildings have a "Student"-type pop? Given how important students often were in 19th Century revolutions it would be cool if they had their own pop with small numbers but large political influence.
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Sep 20, 2022 10:28
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I think this game might be the one where the way the player is the "spirit of a country" feels weirdest to me, probably because of the "interest groups" gameplay mechanics. Let's say you have a country which is a huge mass of plantations and farms. Aristocrats own everything, hold all political power, and run the government. The player can - with no push-back - use government funds to build a bunch of factories, creating a bunch of capitalists who can then challenge the aristocrats and remove their political power. It feels like the aristocrats should get in the way of this, but as far as I know there isn't a mechanic for that. It's understandable that the game would be like this - you don't want the player prevented from doing anything, after all - but it still feels weird. You've got landlords voting to build factories to make other guys rich who can then challenge their dominance of Parliament. Maybe the problem is the hard divide between aristocrat and capitalist. Like in reality there's nothing stopping the Lord of Wessex from building factories as well as owning farms, so your aristocrat and capitalist pops might actually be a lot of the same guys, and if they end up making more money from their capitalist holdings they might vote for laws that favour those holdings over their aristocratic holdings.
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Sep 20, 2022 11:04
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Gort posted:I think this game might be the one where the way the player is the "spirit of a country" feels weirdest to me, probably because of the "interest groups" gameplay mechanics.
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Sep 20, 2022 11:15
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Poil posted:Don't worry, it's balanced by not letting you be socialistic without jumping through hoops. I wonder whether socialism/communism also comes with the historic downsides or whether they allow you to create this communist utopia some people believe the Soviet Union was.
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Sep 20, 2022 11:23
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder whether socialism/communism also comes with the historic downsides or whether they allow you to create this communist utopia some people believe the Soviet Union was. What, specifically, are you referring to?
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Sep 20, 2022 11:41
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Cease to Hope posted:What, specifically, are you referring to? Historically communism in the early 20th century is linked to autocracy, corruption, repression and genocide (Holodomor, Decossackization, Red Terror).
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Sep 20, 2022 12:26
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Please take a look at GaussianCopula's rapsheet before interacting with them tia
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Sep 20, 2022 12:29
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quote:autocracy, corruption, repression and genocide yeah we're playing a game of vicky, that comes regardless of the system in charge
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Sep 20, 2022 13:18
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fuf posted:I was thinking how it would be cool if factories also produced "class consciousness" alongside their actual product, like how Government buildings produce "bureaucracy". There's no Student pop type at the moment but it's something we've talked about adding at a later point as it'd both be a cool mechanic to tie into qualifications and yeah, they were pretty important to revolutionary things.
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Sep 20, 2022 13:22
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trapped mouse posted:Please take a look at GaussianCopula's rapsheet before interacting with them tia
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Sep 20, 2022 14:03
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder whether socialism/communism also comes with the historic downsides or whether they allow you to create this communist utopia some people believe the Soviet Union was. Don't worry you'll get to murder millions of imaginary brown people if you want as any country on the map, now gently caress off
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Sep 20, 2022 14:45
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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1572224069029830659 The options are Shewa, Sokoto, Egypt, Morocco, Merina Kingdom, and Zulu. So far, Egypt has a pretty commanding lead, with Zulu in second.
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Sep 20, 2022 15:10
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drat, I was really hoping to get a look at the situation in Ethiopia, but Shewa has basically no votes. Guess I'll toss one to Zulu, since I think we've seen a lot of the Mediterranean in the various AARs.
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Sep 20, 2022 16:24
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Wiz posted:There's no Student pop type at the moment but it's something we've talked about adding at a later point as it'd both be a cool mechanic to tie into qualifications and yeah, they were pretty important to revolutionary things. Yeah, that'd be neat as heck. Probably a pop that's on the lower income side of things since you know, earning no to little wages at that point while at the same time being VERY politically conscious. Given their wealth status, they'd probably be disenfranchised and would be VERY adamant about changing that. Mix that with youthful and romantic idealism and you have a class you both need for an advanced economy and will be a giant pain in your rear end if you're repressive. Especially if the economy takes a downward swing for whatever reason (*cough cough* 1840s going into 1848 *cough cough*)
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Sep 20, 2022 18:35
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Popoto posted:this is the first game in a loving long while im counting the days until it releases. Same, for real this is the first time I’ve felt this hyped for a game in nearly a decade. I thought I’d kind of just grown out of hype. I’ve been listening to the Revolutions podcast now that it’s over and it feels like a perfect companion piece, would definitely recommend to the handful of people that may exist here that aren’t aware of it.
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Sep 20, 2022 18:42
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I'm 40 years old and never thought I'd be hyper-hyped and fixated on a game like this ever again, yet here I am ready to be hurt bad again.
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Sep 20, 2022 18:48
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A Buttery Pastry posted:What we're really missing here is enforcer pops who make sure everyone keeps working well past what they'd need to support themselves. That seems like it should be the actual limiting factor, not the number of parasites at the top. Gort posted:Let's say you have a country which is a huge mass of plantations and farms. Aristocrats own everything, hold all political power, and run the government. The player can - with no push-back - use government funds to build a bunch of factories, creating a bunch of capitalists who can then challenge the aristocrats and remove their political power. It feels like the aristocrats should get in the way of this, but as far as I know there isn't a mechanic for that. I think interest groups work real well to create a more coherent narrative, even if the player is the 'spirit of the nation'. If the player wants to industrialize an entrenched agrarian nation, they first have to come up with the material conditions and/or a political alliance that explains what happened to those entrenched agrarian interests. "The intelligentsia and reformist church leaders came together to oppose serfdom," or something. You may have an arbitrary goal, but the IGs will make sure you come up with some actual material/political reason for how your country gets to that goal. Honestly, it's my favorite part of Victoria 3. Building communism isn't just clicking the "communism" button, you need to actually create the material and political conditions first. It's great feeling nation state RP.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:07
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Eiba posted:I dunno, while they were definitely parasites, I think aristocrats legitimately had a role in influencing behavior to the point that it makes sense that they're critical to the profitability of a plantation building. You can have all the enforcers you want, but who's going to decide that taking care of your sick grandma is a poor use of resources, or forbidding you from helping out your cousin who's fallen on hard times, if not the aristocrat? Who's going to decide that "slow and reliable" is worse than "quick and risky"? You need someone who sees themselves as a real person and everyone else as livestock to get the truly inhumane social arrangements that underpin early capitalism.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:21
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