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Are there commissar pops in communism, or bureaucrats to fulfill that role? Someone needs to force the peasants to melt all of their farm tools into pig iron.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:43
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The middle managers like slave overseers. No one but the lowliest aristocrat is gonna be wasting time dealing with the laborers, the vast majority of them will just hand over the day-today work of ordering the brutalization of the laborers to their underlings. I'm basically just saying the overall profit motive isn't an inherent human drive, and someone needs to be in a position to come up with it. The concept that someone "owns" the whole operation, and that things should be run to maximize benefit to the owners is an important concept to get people to go crazy and allow capitalism to start developing. Since it benefits no one but the aristocrat (and the state), the aristocrat (or the state) have to be there to enforce it. In game terms I guess the brutalizers on a plantation are abstracted, or at least not their own class of workers. Presumably some of the laborers are brutalizing their fellows. I'm not saying you don't need enforcers, I'm just saying you also need aristocrats.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:44
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think it depends on your laws. I believe they have said in like, a communist worker's state, you genuinely would not have any capitalist or aristocrat pops and all the buildings would operate without them. In a more standard capitalist or pre-industrial state, they might have something where buildings have aristocrats required to "own" them to be allowed to operate, not because they are actually doing any work but because the legal situation simply does not allow for labourers to come in and work on enclosed but unused property. I don't think you can have a decent simulation of capitalism that doesn't delve into the 99 capitalists with unsatisfied needs once one capitalist is ballin' enough to fund the entire factory himself. Nor a decent simulation of fascism in the endgame without those extremely resentful demoted-to-clerks or demoted-to-officers.
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Sep 20, 2022 19:47
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GaussianCopula posted:I wonder whether socialism/communism also comes with the historic downsides or whether they allow you to create this communist utopia some people believe the Soviet Union was. I might eat a probe for this but I just thought this was really lazy trolling, the thread mostly did good at not biting it but come on. Put some effort into it. it’s the laziness that bugs me!!!
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Sep 20, 2022 20:09
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Lady Radia posted:I might eat a probe for this but I just thought this was really lazy trolling, the thread mostly did good at not biting it but come on. Put some effort into it. it’s the laziness that bugs me!!! "How dare you put down Britain this way!1! You lot always try to make it bad 111 The Queen si dead no shame you" Speaking of Revolutions podcast, anyone who likes Duncan's work will probably also like the newish Empire podcast with Anita Anand & William Dalrymple. Beyond the history itself, the previous ep. (6) actually spoke on this very problem with the alternative nazis, as they vehemently are not liking history or the rest of us nowadays
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Sep 20, 2022 20:49
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I'd rather that these streams give us a long term look at a playthrough with one country instead of restarting to do the first 20 years again with a different country repeatedly. The lazy formula of "play for real for 20 minutes and then deliberately break your country ~~~For The Memes In Chat~~~" will be too tempting and we will not learn about the late gate.
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Sep 20, 2022 21:05
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Eiba posted:Right, but who justifies what the middle managers enforces? If it was up to them why wouldn't they just take bribes and make their lives more cushy, greater good of the plantation be damned.
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Sep 20, 2022 21:06
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wukkar posted:I'd rather that these streams give us a long term look at a playthrough with one country instead of restarting to do the first 20 years again with a different country repeatedly. Oh no, not the late gate!
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Sep 20, 2022 21:16
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wukkar posted:I'd rather that these streams give us a long term look at a playthrough with one country instead of restarting to do the first 20 years again with a different country repeatedly. I'd also like to see a more lengthy playthrough rather than just the early game, again.
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Sep 20, 2022 21:18
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Maybe there could be a stream with a later starting date, say the 1870s? That would be a way to see the late game, maybe some pre-WW1 warfare, some proto-communism, etc.
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Sep 20, 2022 23:17
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Baronjutter posted:That's something I don't understand, having certain production methods incompatible with certain ownership structures. Buildings have several categories of settings which are collectively called "production methods". "Ownership structure" is one of the categories. The term covers more than just switching from hand-weaving to powered looms or whatever. AFAIK there's no interdependencies between the categories, but some might exist if they required mutually-exclusive laws.
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Sep 20, 2022 23:25
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CrypticTriptych posted:Buildings have several categories of settings which are collectively called "production methods". "Ownership structure" is one of the categories. The term covers more than just switching from hand-weaving to powered looms or whatever. I think what Baronjutter was referring to was a thing we saw in the Japan stream where certain production methods force-changed the ownership structure of that industry. I forget the exact industry/production method that happened in the stream but it was something along the lines of "switching to more advanced sawmills automatically switched the ownership structure of the lumber industry from guilds (shopkeepers) to privately run (capitalists)"
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Sep 20, 2022 23:31
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Wiz posted:There's no Student pop type at the moment but it's something we've talked about adding at a later point as it'd both be a cool mechanic to tie into qualifications and yeah, they were pretty important to revolutionary things. Can't wait for the Academic Legion DLC
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Sep 20, 2022 23:37
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Obviously I can't play the game yet but my reading isn't that aristocrats are necessary to order the idiot peasants to grow food, they'll do that just fine if you leave them alone. What they do is enable profitably extracting a surplus from agricultural industry, which is what the state and the player care about, but people don't just starve if you have 0 aristocrats. Hell, they're probably better off, but you the player/state aren't so gently caress 'em.
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Sep 21, 2022 00:14
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Crazycryodude posted:Hell, they're probably better off, but you the player/state aren't so gently caress 'em. Words to live by in a paradox game.
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Sep 21, 2022 03:51
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Quorum posted:drat, I was really hoping to get a look at the situation in Ethiopia, but Shewa has basically no votes. Guess I'll toss one to Zulu, since I think we've seen a lot of the Mediterranean in the various AARs. I wonder how different this poll would look if the option had been "Shewa (Ethiopia)", because I wouldn't be surprised if the prime factor here is name recognition.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:41
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Pakled posted:I think what Baronjutter was referring to was a thing we saw in the Japan stream where certain production methods force-changed the ownership structure of that industry. I forget the exact industry/production method that happened in the stream but it was something along the lines of "switching to more advanced sawmills automatically switched the ownership structure of the lumber industry from guilds (shopkeepers) to privately run (capitalists)" Oh, I missed that! Only caught the last half or so of the Japan stream which was mostly politics. Skimming through it -- yes, it looks like the most basic/artisanal primary method is generally not compatible with anything but the basic ownership method (guilds), and vice versa. I guess the concept is to model the concentration of capital from industrialization, but it is a bit weird that you can have an advanced industry owned by a small number of Capitalist pops or, eventually, a large number of Worker pops, but not ever a middling number of Shopkeeper pops.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:21
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It makes sense to me from an economy of scale perspective. A few super wealthy capitalists can afford the plant for more advanced and expensive factories as can the sheer mass of a worker owned co-op. But a bunch of small business owners all at one another's throats wouldn't be able to front the capital for the best new steam engines and chemical processes.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:33
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I kind of assumed it was implying that any shopkeeper pops making the capital investment required to change production method would essentially become capitalists through that process. It might be interesting to have some alt-history ownership method focused around guilds or similar organisations which allowed advanced production methods under shopkeepers (maybe there's even a historical example here?).
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Sep 21, 2022 06:59
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Yeah I had imagined that some subset (those more well off and/or better educated?) of Shopkeepers might promote to Capitalists as the economy makes that transition. I wouldn't imagine that only wealthy aristos would be the source pop.
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Sep 21, 2022 07:04
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StashAugustine posted:Can't wait for the Academic Legion DLC "New Expansion pack for Victoria 3: Die Gedanken sind frei, coming Q2 2023."
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Sep 21, 2022 09:38
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Victoria 3: Greek Life DLC. Adds universities, student pop types, and the ability to reform the Byzantine Empire.
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Sep 21, 2022 10:18
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RabidWeasel posted:I kind of assumed it was implying that any shopkeeper pops making the capital investment required to change production method would essentially become capitalists through that process. That said, Danish industrialization was based on farmers coming together in co-ops to take advantage of the economics of scale without putting the production/finishing of various agricultural products in the hands of capitalists, a system with its heyday between the late 19th century and the 1960s. Basically, co-ops between "shopkeepers" wouldn't be alt-history, because it's literally how Denmark managed to become a modern industrial power while its neighbors assumed it would fall behind due to lack of the traditional resources industrial powers require. Mantis42 posted:Victoria 3: Greek Life DLC. Adds universities, student pop types, and the ability to reform the Byzantine Empire.
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Sep 21, 2022 10:22
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, that was my thinking too, that the idea is that they definitionally become capitalist when they change to this production method. I think ideally the game should make that decision based on the enacted laws and other conditions. When that factory is built: In the default artisans/shopkeepers split into capitalists and workers. In other conditions aristrocrats become capitalists. In other conditions something else happens.
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Sep 21, 2022 11:50
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Achernar posted:"New Expansion pack for Victoria 3: Die Gedanken sind frei, coming Q2 2023." It's gotta come after the Latin American expansion pack,
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Sep 21, 2022 12:37
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https://twitter.com/PDXVictoria/status/1572979283609485315
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Sep 22, 2022 17:16
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This one was pretty interesting. Most of the stuff I was reading I was nodding along and making notes that it's probably how I should be approaching the game too which feels like a great sign to me.
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Sep 22, 2022 17:22
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wiz posted:When it comes to making spending decisions based on these variables, the AI actually uses a system that was actually inspired by the development process for Victoria 3 and the issue tracker that we use (JIRA). Lmao
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Sep 22, 2022 17:33
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lol, gently caress
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Sep 22, 2022 17:35
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AI based on bug tracking: "Pops are starving? Label it lowest priority, and get to it when higher-priority tasks are finished (read: never)"
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Sep 22, 2022 17:44
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I think this means that we can control Paradox development decisions through Victoria III.
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Sep 22, 2022 18:47
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Bugfix policy directed by interest groups, but unfortunately the laissez-faire party is in charge and now market forces are directing Paradox devs into devoting all fixes to the clipper factories
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Sep 22, 2022 18:55
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Crete LP senate based AI when.
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Sep 22, 2022 19:01
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Could be worse. At least it’s not based on HP Quality Center (or whatever they recently rebranded it to).
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Sep 22, 2022 19:05
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This look under the hood was fun and I like the approach to difficulty. I don't think any previewers or PDXCON streamers have talked in depth about their experience with the AI - which is maybe a good sign? Proud Bavarian did say it looks like the AI can reasonably manage its economy to the extent that it doesn't spiral itself into starvation. That's at least more than could be said for the Stellaris AI for a long time, despite those economic mechanics being trivial by comparison.
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Sep 22, 2022 19:39
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Wiz posted:Crete LP senate based AI when. Just turn up the AI randomness factor by 10x
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Sep 22, 2022 19:59
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Wiz posted:Crete LP senate based AI when. Add Scrum and Kanban to Social technology tree, please.
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Sep 22, 2022 20:26
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DrSunshine posted:Add Scrum and Kanban to Social technology tree, please.
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Sep 22, 2022 20:28
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Every tick, your pops will tell you what they did yesterday, what they're doing today, and what blockers they have
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Sep 22, 2022 22:34
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I wonder what is the rationale behind having no real difficulty levels. CK3 doesn't have them too. Probably the point is the difficulty doesn't make much sense when both "survive as Japan" and "conquer the world as Krakow" are interesting and viable paths to ***victory*** and you only need some training wheels difficulty for beginners.
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Sep 22, 2022 22:54
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