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War and Pieces posted:wars also help you to not be an incel if your side wins Dark.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:15
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Mameluke posted:How was premodern history not riddled with incels when one incest-riddled wimp could claim forty thousand women because of "the mandate of heaven" or somesuch other stupid bullshit higher male mortality rates and the availability of celibate life choices kept the sex ratio from getting too bad and there was always war to even things out if there got to be too many men this is a really essential and underappreciated aspect of polygynous societies imo the flds is straight up unsustainable without these factors and they have to ditch male kids by the truckload ironically in practice polygyny is probably more misandrist than misogynist because loving over the majority of the male population for the benefit of a few elite males is such a necessary prerequisite
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Sep 21, 2022 06:43
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quote:First of all there is the idea that men who behave in a specific way are in a competition for love and sex. i can never figure out wtf incelsplainers think is controversial about this concept like have they never seen a dating app do they think humans arent animals and dont do mating rituals is it their opinion that anyone whos in a loving relationship stumbles into it by accident while doing other things
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Sep 21, 2022 07:07
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wow look at these dumbass incels with their crazy medieval beliefs about how men compete with each other for dates if they werent idiots theyd know that women select their partners through completely objective standards that have nothing to do with male behavior
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Sep 21, 2022 07:14
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sociobiology and marxism are both true and drive people insane
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Sep 21, 2022 07:25
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I think the best book I've read about polygyny in comparison to monogamy is Marrying Well by Kristin Mann. It concerns a pretty narrow slice of history - Colonial Lagos - but that is a strength, since you can see a pretty direct comparison between two otherwise very similar subcultures and how they weigh and argue about monogamy vs polygyny. A thing that is really worth keeping in mind is that even if the emperor of China has hundreds or more women in the harem, its a pretty small demographic effect. There's a much more substantial demographic effect in areas where polygyny is practiced by wider swaths of society, like any rich rear end in a top hat having 4 wives in a lot of countries. But even then the demographic effect is usually not that massive since there's not actually that many rich guys. And really even societies that are notionally monogamous will still end up with this trend if income inequality is severe enough. Do you really think rich American and French jackasses don't have half a dozen mistresses? Anyway "incels" in our specific sense of guys who don't get laid and blame women for that and are resentful of men who get laid and then shoot up schools does appear to be culturally local to the modern west, but there's ample demonstration that it has a continuous tradition in Western philosophy going back to at least the middle ages and there's a pretty well worn trope (I don't know if its actually SUBSTANTIAL mind you just repeated) that even without any complicated ideology, sexually frustrated young men are more violent than less sexually frustrated young men ergo polygynous societies are more violent than monogamous societies, but again in one of the few cases where there's decent side-by-side that didn't really appear in the evidence and it seems more like a just-so story made by colonialists to make themselves come across as more enlightened and rational. Some Guy TT posted:wow look at these dumbass incels with their crazy medieval beliefs about how men compete with each other for dates if they werent idiots theyd know that women select their partners through completely objective standards that have nothing to do with male behavior did you have a stroke on being exposed to leftist thoughts about sexuality for the first time or something??? Tulip has issued a correction as of 07:34 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 07:28
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Tulip posted:
this is what really irritates me about the tone of stuff like that article i quoted is that theres a strong moralist element at play that incels are just mad because women who are extremely smart and cool only choose objectively awesome partners and like have you ever met a guy whos had lots of sex partners theyre literally loving assholes
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Sep 21, 2022 07:34
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efb
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Sep 21, 2022 07:39
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Tulip posted:did you have a stroke on being exposed to leftist thoughts about sexuality for the first time or something??? what exactly do you think is leftist about the idea that misogyny only exists when women are given too much freedom
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Sep 21, 2022 07:41
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Some Guy TT posted:what exactly do you think is leftist about the idea that misogyny only exists when women are given too much freedom I think you have profoundly misread Dr Janega. She doesn't really go into detail in that article b/c AFAIK her view on the question of "what should romantic relations be like" is basically better summarized in Engels' On the Origin of the Family
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Sep 21, 2022 07:49
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what romantic relations actually are and what they should be like are two very different ideas and the article is making it sound as if incels just pulled these crazy ideas out of the ether of white supremacy and not that they were informed by real world experiences like even if were limiting this discussion purely to the scope of the thread i dont see how anyone can seriously argue that capellanus and the ideals of courtly love were misogynist but that the main alternative idea of women literally being property isnt
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Sep 21, 2022 07:55
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Some Guy TT posted:this is what really irritates me about the tone of stuff like that article i quoted is that theres a strong moralist element at play that incels are just mad because women who are extremely smart and cool only choose objectively awesome partners and like have you ever met a guy whos had lots of sex partners theyre literally loving assholes
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Sep 21, 2022 08:36
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it is so funny how extremely online incels and feminists are incapable of accepting that straight women are attracted to attractive men
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Sep 21, 2022 08:37
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War and Pieces posted:it is so funny how extremely online incels and feminists are incapable of accepting that straight women are attracted to attractive men
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Sep 21, 2022 08:40
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Also they think that 90% of women are having sex with the most attractive 10% of men. Real surveys say that it's more like 80% of straight women are having sex with 70% of men.
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Sep 21, 2022 08:42
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Some Guy TT posted:what romantic relations actually are and what they should be like are two very different ideas and the article is making it sound as if incels just pulled these crazy ideas out of the ether of white supremacy and not that they were informed by real world experiences I think if you want to engage with leftists on these issues you'd get more bang for your buck by reading published works by leftists on romance and gender. I mentioned Engels, but if you want a much shorter though less representative sample there's Badiou's In Praise of Love or hooks' All About Love. A Buttery Pastry posted:isn't the whole idea with any kind of incels that they are perfectly aware that straight women are attracted to attractive men, they're just extremely mad about not being attractive themselves. also possibly not aware what is actually attractive to straight women. If we're talking about 21st century incels I'd honestly say that its deeper than that. They're ultimately fascists who just have a particular fixation on women's lib, and that is to say that the problem is not just that women aren't loving them, but that women have any agency over who they gently caress at all. For that matter, based on their proposed solutions, they object to themselves being granted any agency. Like all fascists, they desire a world free of subjects, where every person is an object properly filed in its rightful location. To quote a Nazi quoted in The True Believer, they wish to be "free from freedom."
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Sep 21, 2022 09:19
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Tulip posted:I think if you want to engage with leftists on these issues you'd get more bang for your buck by reading published works by leftists on romance and gender. I mentioned Engels, but if you want a much shorter though less representative sample there's Badiou's In Praise of Love or hooks' All About Love. none of these are useful for the immediate subject under discussion because they predate the incel movement now you could make the argument that theyre relevant in the sense that women in general have moved away from the romantic feminine ideal discussed in these books to embrace the more cynical masculine ideal also discussed in these books and that this is the real root cause of the incel movement is women treating men the same lovely way men have always treated women but thats really not an argument that can be plausibly drawn from the original offending article because the author clearly seems to believe that its good that incels are being told to gently caress off because theyre bad people who deserve it and women when given free agency in romantic relationships dont make bad choices
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Sep 21, 2022 09:46
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Some Guy TT posted:but thats really not an argument that can be plausibly drawn from the original offending article because the author clearly seems to believe that its good that incels are being told to gently caress off because theyre bad people who deserve it and women when given free agency in romantic relationships dont make bad choices they’re right OP
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Sep 21, 2022 10:39
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what if the 40,000 chicks all just independently wanted to bone the Emperor bc he was such a cool chill dude
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Sep 21, 2022 11:45
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Some Guy TT posted:none of these are useful for the immediate subject under discussion because they predate the incel movement 
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Sep 21, 2022 11:51
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Some Guy TT posted:this is what really irritates me about the tone of stuff like that article i quoted is that theres a strong moralist element at play that incels are just mad because women who are extremely smart and cool only choose objectively awesome partners and like have you ever met a guy whos had lots of sex partners theyre literally loving assholes the pre-modern history thread, where we debate like the philosophers of old.
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Sep 21, 2022 14:38
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Some Guy TT posted:none of these are useful for the immediate subject under discussion because they predate the incel movement They're relevant because you've so thoroughly misunderstood the article in question that I genuinely do not know where to begin other than to point you to some introductory texts about how Marxists view sexual and romantic relations. It really truly seems that you have not encountered, or at least not actually ever engaged with, a left wing viewpoint on sexual and romantic relationships, and I personally am not a good enough teacher to walk you through those in a better manner than the already-existing books of theory on the subject.
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Sep 21, 2022 15:52
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quote:Could these guys just cultivate a nice life, learn to be kind, and get laid through being an interesting person who is genuinely interested in and kind to others? Of course. But we’re going to need to start telling men earlier that women are real humans in their own right, and do a better job of dismantling the system that tells them genuine human interaction is a secondary consideration first. how is this marxism this is the exact same moralistic garbage you can read in any lovely advice column
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Sep 21, 2022 17:39
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some guy tt is chinpilled
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Sep 21, 2022 17:43
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the reason i dislike this thinking is that it very naively presupposes that incels have never been exposed to these ideas and could learn to be sexually successful men if they would only internalize feminist messaging but in the real world their entire worldview stems from the fact that they used to believe in the value of being a nice guy and concluded based on negative real world experience that this ideology is a lie and you dont get laid by being nice nitpicking the meaning of the word nice is like the single least most convincing approach you could take with them because you just end up playing a rhetorical game of no true niceman where any seemingly nice guy who isnt getting laid is suffering from some kind of moral defect which mysteriously doesnt seem to impact the ability of outright misogynists and abusers to get laid
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Sep 21, 2022 17:49
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Also I think most of the time it has nothing to do with how nice they are and is instead because they don't actually try. They either don't bother doing anything to try to meet women or try it once and immediately decide that society is hosed when it doesn't immediately work.
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Sep 21, 2022 18:07
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if their on tinder like most you people or even Grindr then they are trying to meet sexual partners in perhaps the most brutal and humiliating way possible
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Sep 21, 2022 18:12
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i would simply not use tinder, and just grab another online dating service that has a decent number of people in ur area on it
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Sep 21, 2022 18:23
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Some Guy TT posted:how is this marxism this is the exact same moralistic garbage you can read in any lovely advice column Some Guy TT posted:the reason i dislike this thinking is that it very naively presupposes that incels have never been exposed to these ideas and could learn to be sexually successful men if they would only internalize feminist messaging but in the real world their entire worldview stems from the fact that they used to believe in the value of being a nice guy and concluded based on negative real world experience that this ideology is a lie and you dont get laid by being nice I gotta say that when you walk into the leftist shitposting subforum and repeatedly say "brownshirts are smarter than Marxists" it doesn't leave the impression that you're very socially astute. Agean90 posted:Also I think most of the time it has nothing to do with how nice they are and is instead because they don't actually try. They either don't bother doing anything to try to meet women or try it once and immediately decide that society is hosed when it doesn't immediately work. Yeah we're seeing something of a demonstration of that here: the incel mind is not arguing with actual experiences or data but instead with what it wishes that data was in order to justify bitterness mixed with self-righteousness.
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Sep 21, 2022 18:29
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you havent actually offered any data to support your argument at all come to think of it im not even sure what your argument is all youve done is told me to read books that predate the incel movement to understand why the incel movement exists
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Sep 21, 2022 18:53
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Some Guy TT posted:you havent actually offered any data to support your argument at all come to think of it im not even sure what your argument is all youve done is told me to read books that predate the incel movement to understand why the incel movement exists That isn't what I've said. What I've said is that your interpretation of Janega's article fully fails to consider even the basic premises that she is arguing from, and you've then been extremely confused about what her not very complicated argument is and then gotten angry and defended brownshirts. It's not an issue of data anyway, since from everything I can tell you're lacking the theoretical background that leftists are working from. The ways in which a leftist like Janega would use that data are not going to be coherent to you without understanding the theory she's working from, and its not a theory she explains in any explicit detail in her work because she's assuming (as I was) that her audience has at least a passing familiarity with how leftists as a community discuss and understand romantic relationships. To summarize: the interpretation that you've advanced of Janega's article is completely disconnected from her actual stances, I do not have the hubris to think that I can write or explain the theoretical context better than Engels.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:15
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Some Guy TT posted:you havent actually offered any data to support your argument at all come to think of it im not even sure what your argument is all youve done is told me to read books that predate the incel movement to understand why the incel movement exists have you tried posting more in the fitness thread op
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Sep 21, 2022 19:16
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Tulip posted:What I've said is that your interpretation of Janega's article fully fails to consider even the basic premises that she is arguing from, and you've then been extremely confused about what her not very complicated argument is and then gotten angry and defended brownshirts. you seem to be under the impression that understanding why brownshirts have the beliefs that they do is tantamount to defending them i should perhaps not be surprised by this since you also seem to think that the best way to talk to brownshirts is to refuse to explain the premise of your argument
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Sep 21, 2022 19:27
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since when did leftists have a party line on love and romance the spectrum extends all the way from 200 person polycules with shared custody to transhuman asexual reproduction and everything in between
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Sep 21, 2022 19:58
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gently caress off with this current events poo poo the real question: which pre-modern historical figure was the biggest piece of poo poo "nice guy"
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Sep 21, 2022 20:13
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henry viii
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Sep 21, 2022 20:15
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trotsky e: oh uh... napoleon
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Sep 21, 2022 20:19
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Jazerus posted:gently caress off with this current events poo poo most Nice guys are pretty lovely. beach towns attract some real characters and france is no exception
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Sep 21, 2022 20:20
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Jazerus posted:gently caress off with this current events poo poo liu bei
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Sep 21, 2022 20:22
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| # ? Jun 10, 2024 08:46 |
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Stairmaster posted:liu bei 
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Sep 21, 2022 20:24
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