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Gynovore posted:Makes you wonder what will happen the day chess gets solved. it... it is? That's kind of the point -- computers are far better than humans. it's not "solved" in a way where the correct move can be instantly determined by a human brain, if that's what you're saying, because that is impossible
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Sep 14, 2022 21:29
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That’s not what a game being solved means. Neither of your definitions. The solving of chess would likely only be forced draws anyways.
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Sep 14, 2022 21:35
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Chess is probably not "solvable" in the strictest sense of the word, but with quantum computing plus some tricks (and a reliance on the 50-move draw rule) computers may be able to essentially always present the best option from any possible board state, eventually. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solving_chess If computers could solve the game in that way, they'd always beat or draw against a human player, which may be enough to satisfy some folks' meaning of the word "solved." If I understand things correctly, where solvers like Stockfish operate is that they aren't asked to evaluate all possible future moves and board states. Instead, they start with a specific current board state and operate forward, finding lines that lead to mates, draws, etc., and also referencing precalculated "trees" of moves where possible to avoid having to re-calculate stuff that's already been worked out previously, and then just give you at least a move that doesn't imminently lead to losing the game, if there is such a move. If you use Stockfish alongside your play, with each move it can keep you from blundering.
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Sep 14, 2022 22:10
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Leperflesh posted:Yeah this tournament has a $450k purse, so it's got sufficient incentives to cheat and sufficient money to spend on security. I thought they already were, but maybe some tournament 20 years ago just made a big deal of things and I assumed it was standard. The players were in a "shielded" room and things were televised even to the live audience, who weren't allowed near them. No idea who was playing, even when I played the game the high-level stuff was opaque to me, I just read about it in some tech magazine.
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Sep 16, 2022 05:02
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Leperflesh posted:If I understand things correctly, where solvers like Stockfish operate is that they aren't asked to evaluate all possible future moves and board states. Instead, they start with a specific current board state and operate forward, finding lines that lead to mates, draws, etc., and also referencing precalculated "trees" of moves where possible to avoid having to re-calculate stuff that's already been worked out previously, and then just give you at least a move that doesn't imminently lead to losing the game, if there is such a move. If you use Stockfish alongside your play, with each move it can keep you from blundering. If it's anything like the chess computer I used to have ("Hi, I'm Chesster! How about a nice game of chess?") it can look X moves ahead and evaluate how good those board states are. With Chesster I could set how deep it could look and a time limit on how long it evaluated those options. How they evaluate. max depth, and ways to do it efficiently would be leagues beyond what I had though.
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Sep 16, 2022 05:07
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If you have a full length movie in you, this is a really interesting video on the history and development of computer chess, Deep Blue, Kasparov, and the match that made computer chess famous https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwF229U2ba8
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Sep 16, 2022 05:41
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Remember when someone cheated at a big Ticket to Ride tournament and got caught on stream, and everyone's reaction was "wait, they have professional competitive Ticket to Ride?"
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Sep 16, 2022 07:34
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Out of curiosity, how does one cheat at Ticket to Ride?
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Sep 16, 2022 07:36
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Out of curiosity, how does one cheat at Ticket to Ride? Hop the turnstile.
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Sep 16, 2022 07:45
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Out of curiosity, how does one cheat at Ticket to Ride? The more I think about this the more curious I am, I initially though it’d be just manipulation of pieces but there’s not a really obvious low risk option to me because so much of the game state can be easily reconstructed. Of course, I’ve also known people to just have way too many cards in hand in Magic early enough in the game for that to be easily reconstructed so sometimes people just run bad cheats, and this person did get caught, so maybe they were just brazenly running easily detected cheats.
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Sep 16, 2022 07:52
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Out of curiosity, how does one cheat at Ticket to Ride? The best answer I could find for this comes from the guy himself, Erwin Pauelsen, who was disqualified from his win at the Ticket to Ride World Championship by Days of Wonder upon reviewing footage of the game following viewers contacting them about irregularities noticed during the stream. quote:I will clarify my side of the story. After the final ended it was quickly criticized on the forum of Days of > Wonder with photographs of the results of the 2nd match. You can pretty much recalculate all Ticket to Ride points. On the board you can see exactly how many turns a player has used to claim routes. Since no one took extra destination tickets, all other turns were used to grab cards. In general, you take two cards, except for a single a Locomotive.
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Sep 16, 2022 08:06
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I get that people sometimes make posts like that when they’ve actually been falsely accused and are bummed about it, but in my experience things like “well I might have won the third game” are more common among people who have cheated. Not 100%, but most folks who take time to respond to cheating allegations understand that if tournament officials conclude you cheated, they’re pretty justified in taking broader punitive action like a full disqualification. But “I might have won anyway” is a really common internal justification people use IME, so always raises alarms for me - it sounds much more like a justifying-cheating mindset than a fair play one. Also, Ticket to Ride is a game about long-term planning - assembling the longer routes by definition takes multiple turns, so if you’re experienced and serious enough to play at that kind of level, I’m really suspicious that you can accidentally pick up other cards and not notice something’s amiss. Pick them up, think it doesn’t look right, and then not call an official because you’re afraid of the potential consequences? Sure, that’s believable, but it’s still cheating. That defense would not make me feel much doubt if I’d handed down the original ruling, suffice to say.
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Sep 16, 2022 08:29
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Yeah that does not read like someone who’s sorry that their mistake hosed up the second-to-last game of a huge tournament and resulted in them getting a win that, as of that point, they 100% did not deserve. It reads like someone who’s sorry they got caught.
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Sep 16, 2022 08:38
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Im going to be that loving guy and say the original rumor was vibrating buttons in his shoes (much easier, you can do left foot right foot rather than short prostate buzz long prostate buzz and with less chance of accidentally jizzing your pants in the middle of the match) but the internet heard the word vibrating and made it fucky
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Sep 20, 2022 16:09
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An article I read made it sound like the other security measures around the game (CCTV delay, signal scans, whatever) along with the, uh, physical specifics, make the anal bead hypothesis extremely unlikely to the point of being impossible, but it's still really funny so I want to believe in it.
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Sep 20, 2022 17:20
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Surely if the TTR cheater picked up someone else's cards, that someone else would have noticed too? Like it's not just him somehow failing to notice he now has different cards, it has to be another player too? Or what, are there random unowned cards lying around the table?long-rear end nips Diane posted:An article I read made it sound like the other security measures around the game (CCTV delay, signal scans, whatever) along with the, uh, physical specifics, make the anal bead hypothesis extremely unlikely to the point of being impossible, but it's still really funny so I want to believe in it. I agree, it's why I'm skeptical that there was any actual cheating at that match. I suspect this is more about some strong and weird personalities colliding.
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Sep 20, 2022 17:37
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Leperflesh posted:Surely if the TTR cheater picked up someone else's cards, that someone else would have noticed too? Like it's not just him somehow failing to notice he now has different cards, it has to be another player too? Or what, are there random unowned cards lying around the table? My guess would be he played cards to a busy table, placed his trains and "forgot" to move his cards to the discard pile
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Sep 20, 2022 17:43
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Leperflesh posted:Surely if the TTR cheater picked up someone else's cards, that someone else would have noticed too? Like it's not just him somehow failing to notice he now has different cards, it has to be another player too? Or what, are there random unowned cards lying around the table?
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Sep 20, 2022 17:46
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Leperflesh posted:Surely if the TTR cheater picked up someone else's cards, that someone else would have noticed too? Like it's not just him somehow failing to notice he now has different cards, it has to be another player too? Or what, are there random unowned cards lying around the table? When you pick up carriage cards you can take one of five face-up cards or one of the face-down cards from the deck. It'd be quite possible to take two instead of one, especially since there's no hand size limit so early-game hands can get big enough that the extra card could be hidden.
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Sep 20, 2022 17:49
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MadScientistWorking posted:You say this as if its unusual, but its happened before with Yugioh where the players switched decks.... Switching decks sounds crazier but it's arguably less weird. You're not constantly staring at the content of your deck the way you stare at your hand, so you'd only notice when you drew a card that shouldn't be in your deck (whether because you had none of them or you know you've drawn all of them) and if you're playing a mirror match that could take quite a well.
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Sep 20, 2022 17:50
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I'm guessing someone had to shuffle, offered the deck to the opponent to cut, it got set down and the wrong deck picked up?
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Sep 20, 2022 21:23
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It also makes sense in a game with a meta that has a bunch of cards common to high end decks or where you take a few decks into a tournament, so yeah it might take a few draws or turns for you to notice it's not the deck you thought you brought.
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Sep 20, 2022 21:29
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My favourite thing in Ticket to Ride is watching what people do with their spare trains when it's not their turn. Stack them? Line them up neatly? write your name with them? A heap?
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Sep 20, 2022 21:31
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HopperUK posted:My favourite thing in Ticket to Ride is watching what people do with their spare trains when it's not their turn. Stack them? Line them up neatly? write your name with them? A heap? Likewise with Catan games
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Sep 20, 2022 21:33
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PharmerBoy posted:I'm guessing someone had to shuffle, offered the deck to the opponent to cut, it got set down and the wrong deck picked up?
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Sep 21, 2022 01:36
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Yup. Nearly same deck, identical sleeves, both decks set next to each other after a shuffle. It was the perfect storm to allow it to happen.
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Sep 21, 2022 01:46
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I can believe the Ticket to Ride one, there's been enough times on a crowded table in board games where I grabbed the discard deck by mistake.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:17
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lol guess what, magnus carlson quit an online match against hans neimann after taking his first move, because why would this not continue to be a spectacular show of pettiness and oddity? The story is showing up in serious/major news outlets now. https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/20/sport/magnus-carlsen-hans-niemann-chess-spt-intl/index.html
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Sep 21, 2022 04:30
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Leperflesh posted:lol guess what, magnus carlson quit an online match against hans neimann after taking his first move, because why would this not continue to be a spectacular show of pettiness and oddity? The story is showing up in serious/major news outlets now. Why were there no consequences from FIDE for this kid's cheating before? Chess.com banned him, but I guess FIDE didn't care? That's like if an MLB top prospect was caught on steroids and suspended from a local league while MLB did nothing. I think that's pretty hosed up and that Magnus is right to make them look bad. If the cheater had been suspended from whatever officially sanctioned events for a couple of years and then come back clean, sure, give him a chance.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:41
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I don't think FIDE had any jurisdiction or oversight over some teenager allegedly cheating on completely unsecured, zero prizes at stake, anonymous online website chess, no. I doubt they even have a process for considering things like that. I don't think that analogy is very good because I don't think the MLB can suspend players for something they allegedly did in high school baseball either.
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Sep 21, 2022 04:56
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Jimbozig posted:Why were there no consequences from FIDE for this kid's cheating before? Chess.com banned him, but I guess FIDE didn't care? That's like if an MLB top prospect was caught on steroids and suspended from a local league while MLB did nothing. While they're at it they should ban anyone who used a GameShark on their pokemon game in middle school too, because that has just about as much relevance.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:28
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I would Gameshark a car if I could. I would even Gameshark a girlfriend.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:47
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Nuns with Guns posted:I would Gameshark a car if I could. I would even Gameshark a girlfriend. Hey! Step away from playable but glitchy inverse-colors Vega sprite from the original Street Fighter 2. They're spoken for.
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Sep 21, 2022 05:48
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Bruceski posted:I can believe the Ticket to Ride one, there's been enough times on a crowded table in board games where I grabbed the discard deck by mistake. Preface: I've been a tournament organizer and/or judge for lots of events in lots of games for well over a decade at this point, including being a certified Magic judge, judge for Magic PTQs, and running a ton of convention events, including highly competitive events with significant prizes (mostly for the My Little Pony CCG, lol, but also some other very small indy games). I've seen situations pretty similar to this come up. From my experience, this story is not very good. I can believe accidentally picking up the wrong pile, what I find really unlikely is not noticing you've done that. TTR is a game where long-term planning around your tickets is absolutely required to succeed. Of course a new player who's focused on trying to learn the rules and so forth might not have the mental bandwidth to really remember and could make a mistake like that, but for a player at a serious event it's highly unlikely, IMO. Is it theoretically possible that the hand they accidentally picked up was really similar to the hand they were supposed to have, just slightly better for them, such that they genuinely thought "oh wow I somehow miscounted my green cards" or w/e? Sure, that's a universe that could possibly exist, but the odds seem really really long to me. You almost certainly have a running count of how close you are to several important routes, plus how many wilds you have. While everyone miscounts sometimes, if I suddenly am closer than I think I should be, I'm going to recount and pay special scrutiny to the rest of the hand, which in most cases is going to tip me off that something's up - "where's my wild card?" or "when did I get these three oranges?" or whatever. In order for that not to make you figure it out, the hands would have to be so similar that when you do the double take, the only notable difference is whatever advantage you gained. Again, possible? Sure. Likely? Not very, IMO. (If you caught the issue at the time, you could likely do an investigation involving finding the correct hand and comparing, which would give you a better idea of whether that's remotely plausible in the specific case, but the idea that a player at that level plausibly doesn't know their hand very well is not believable.) What's much more likely, again IME, is the error being honest initially, but the player suspecting or knowing something's up, and not calling the official. This is sadly common. Sometimes people think that they'll get in trouble if they inform the official, and so don't do that. Sometimes they realize that, since it was an honest mistake to begin with, if they get called on it they can just say that, and if they don't, they've gained an advantage. I could easily believe this happened in that case - that the person didn't initially set out to cheat, but realized the game state had been compromised and didn't take any steps to correct it. I think you can make a case that doing that is less bad, such that I might impose fewer consequences for it in a local store game or casual game, or if the person doing it is a kid, or whatever. But in any event that's going to be on tape with a trophy, every codified tournament rules system I know makes both behaviors cheating, with the penalty being disqualification. It just becomes radically harder if the behavior initially being an honest mistake makes a difference, because it's so easy to claim an honest mistake even if it wasn't. Ultimately if you knowingly let a bad game state go, you're cheating, so that's what's important here IMO, not whether the initial hand swap was a mistake or a cheat. What is sort of interesting to me is how few games that I know of have specific rules for infractions that aren't caught at the time, but are caught on camera later. It's much harder to investigate cases like that, so I think it'd be useful for companies to make policies around it when they regularly broadcast games. Magic had a period where several high-profile cheats were caught on camera and punished, which is obviously good, but it led to a sort of witch hunt situation for a while where everyone who made a minor error that no one noticed at the time got accused on social media of cheating, which got really tiresome and unpleasant. Not sure there's a good solution, but it seems likely to come up increasingly often.
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Sep 21, 2022 07:06
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Ultiville posted:What's much more likely, again IME, is the error being honest initially, but the player suspecting or knowing something's up, and not calling the official. This is sadly common. Sometimes people think that they'll get in trouble if they inform the official, and so don't do that. Sometimes they realize that, since it was an honest mistake to begin with, if they get called on it they can just say that, and if they don't, they've gained an advantage. I could easily believe this happened in that case - that the person didn't initially set out to cheat, but realized the game state had been compromised and didn't take any steps to correct it. Yeah, I should have clarified that I believe it could happen without anybody *else* noticing. Grabbing someone else's hand like was suggested would be noticed but there's so many cards flying around the table that even if you're trying to be organized in a tournament setting there's ways for cards to find their way into the wrong place. Now I'm wondering if official TTR matches have a dealer like casinos.
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Sep 21, 2022 09:22
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Ultiville posted:What is sort of interesting to me is how few games that I know of have specific rules for infractions that aren't caught at the time, but are caught on camera later. It's much harder to investigate cases like that, so I think it'd be useful for companies to make policies around it when they regularly broadcast games. Magic had a period where several high-profile cheats were caught on camera and punished, which is obviously good, but it led to a sort of witch hunt situation for a while where everyone who made a minor error that no one noticed at the time got accused on social media of cheating, which got really tiresome and unpleasant. Not sure there's a good solution, but it seems likely to come up increasingly often. I can see that; heck, I *have* seen it in lower-stakes situations. In small social groups there's the downside of being "the guy who won't let it go" but modern social media's too big for that and any random person can slide in high on the opportunity to feel justified yelling at someone.
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Sep 21, 2022 09:28
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I keep seeing this ad and it's incredibly weird to me every time that they don't have the actual name of the game anywhere.
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Sep 21, 2022 13:29
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Leperflesh posted:I don't think FIDE had any jurisdiction or oversight over some teenager allegedly cheating on completely unsecured, zero prizes at stake, anonymous online website chess, no. I doubt they even have a process for considering things like that. I don't think that analogy is very good because I don't think the MLB can suspend players for something they allegedly did in high school baseball either. It wasn't Zero stakes IIRC, it was an online tournament with actual prizes. But yeah it wasn't a FIDE sanctioned thing.
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Sep 21, 2022 13:31
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Vulpes Vulpes posted:I keep seeing this ad and it's incredibly weird to me every time that they don't have the actual name of the game anywhere.
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Sep 21, 2022 13:32
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Leperflesh posted:I don't think FIDE had any jurisdiction or oversight over some teenager allegedly cheating on completely unsecured, zero prizes at stake, anonymous online website chess, no. I doubt they even have a process for considering things like that. I don't think that analogy is very good because I don't think the MLB can suspend players for something they allegedly did in high school baseball either. Was he just "some teenager"? I thought these chess kids got titles when they were teenagers. This was just a few years ago, right? And he's a GM now? Seems like he would have been more than a nobody. I'm not deep into chess enough to know what sort of events he would have been in at the time or if FIDE had any jurisdiction over them. Who tracks official ELO and all that? He would have been climbing rankings even then, wouldn't he? The Shortest Path posted:While they're at it they should ban anyone who used a GameShark on their pokemon game in middle school too, because that has just about as much relevance. It's the same competitive game. A better comparison is if someone cheated in online Counterstrike events. When that is discovered, should they be banned from competing in face-to-face CS tournaments, too? Keeping in mind, nobody knows for sure if they ever cheated face to face, but they were never caught doing it.
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Sep 21, 2022 13:47
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