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K8.0 posted:The 970 was about 90% of the performance of the 980, and about 2/3 the performance of the 980 Ti that came 9 months later at about twice the price. The RTX 3060 is barely 75% of the performance of the 3060 Ti, and about half of an RTX 3080. The $330 slot has gone from amazing products to actual garbage that I really can't recommend to anyone. My problem isn't specifically with the $330 slot, but rather that there's nothing reasonable under $400. Nvidia has entirely abandoned the $200 slot, it doesn't exist anymore, and AMD at the $200 slot offers GPUs that literally perform worse than their $169 MSRP RX 570 from 2017.
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Sep 21, 2022 16:48
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Lockback posted:The 970 was a better card for its time than the 3060 was/is though. What do you mean "better card for its time"? The 3060 is the best cost per frame ("value") that Nvidia has ever released in their history to date*. Closer to the very fastest card made in the market? The entire market is larger, and stretched much higher than before, so thats not really a sound measurement. I feel like the market stretching upwards has confused people a lot. You don't need to compare your card to the top of the market. (*I haven't checked current street prices for the 3060 Ti, its possible that the Ti is actually a better value per frame at the moment with the dealz going around)
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Sep 21, 2022 16:52
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Cygni posted:The entire market is larger, and stretched much higher than before, so thats not really a sound measurement. I feel like the market stretching upwards has confused people a lot. You don't need to compare your card to the top of the market. yeah these historical comparisons are skewed by the death of SLI, flagships have become much more expensive but an equivalent system back then would have had two (or more) flagship cards in it flagships have grown to fill the space that used to be occupied by multi-GPU
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Sep 21, 2022 16:56
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Conversely, games have less need for flagship-level performance today imo. Outside of the five RT games you want to play, mid-level cards crush game needs at common resolutions in a way that wasn't true of the 9xx era. This is also probably in part why high end prices are going up - it really is the whale/gpu enthusiast market that's left at the top end, most folks no longer need that level of power relative to what they're playing.
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Sep 21, 2022 16:59
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Cygni posted:What do you mean "better card for its time"? The 3060 is the best cost per frame ("value") that Nvidia has ever released in their history to date*. Closer to the very fastest card made in the market? The entire market is larger, and stretched much higher than before, so thats not really a sound measurement. I feel like the market stretching upwards has confused people a lot. You don't need to compare your card to the top of the market. Are you smoking crack? The 3060 is literally the worst price/performance GPU Nvidia has in their stack, and always has been. It's also got to be the absolute champion of bad value compared to products further up the stack. Never has Nvidia tried to sell you an x60 that was half the price for half the performance of the x80/x80Ti tier. Even notorious stinkers like the original 2060 at its original pricing look like a bargain by comparison. That's not even getting into uplift/$, which is what really matters, and where the 3060 looks truly abominable.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:00
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inflation has bit pretty hard since 2016 or whatever when the 970 came out too, even in america. it wasn't just the mining crisis that dragged prices up even if it did 99% of the work.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:00
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Cygni posted:What do you mean "better card for its time"? The 3060 is the best cost per frame ("value") that Nvidia has ever released in their history to date*. Closer to the very fastest card made in the market? The entire market is larger, and stretched much higher than before, so thats not really a sound measurement. I feel like the market stretching upwards has confused people a lot. You don't need to compare your card to the top of the market. Even at MSRP on 3060 launch day, the 3060 Ti was always a better value. It's about 30% faster than the 3060 at 1440p, and only ~20% more expensive. The 3060 fuckin sucks, just like the 960 and 980 did, and I really want to see big sales numbers because nVidia used to sell a TON of under-$400 GPUs, and if they still are, it's just because consumers are either strictly budget limited or under-informed. The situation sucks all around, but is being mirrored in a bunch of other industries that saw huge price increases during the pandemic. What used to be a $1200 bicycle is now $2200, and there are used Toyota Camrys at Carmax and Carvana for decently over $40k.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:00
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is $400 for a new 3060 Ti a good price?
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Sep 21, 2022 17:01
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Twerk from Home posted:Even at MSRP on 3060 launch day, the 3060 Ti was always a better value. It's about 30% faster than the 3060 at 1440p, and only ~20% more expensive. The 3060 fuckin sucks, just like the 960 and 980 did, and I really want to see big sales numbers because nVidia used to sell a TON of under-$400 GPUs, and if they still are, it's just because consumers are either strictly budget limited or under-informed. This is from June and Ti prices have decreased a lot, as i noted in the original post. But yes, the 3060 is the best cost per frame card Nvidia has ever released with the asterisk that the Ti's new street price might have passed it since this was made. 3060 Tis still arent at MSRP from what ive seen though. 
Cygni fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 17:03
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Cygni posted:This is from June and Ti prices have decreased a lot, as i noted in the original post. But yes, the 3060 is the best cost per frame card Nvidia has ever released with the asterisk that the Ti's new street price might have passed it since this was made. 3060 Tis still arent at MSRP from what ive seen though. Oh, yeah, I was going entirely off of MSRP because trying to track huge market swings seems really hard. It also looks like PCPartPicker doesn't see Best Buy FE GPUs? I looked and the cheapest 3060 Ti on PCPartpicker is still $450 right now, but Best Buy has had 3060 Tis for $399.99 in stock for months now continuously: https://www.bestbuy.com/site/nvidia-geforce-rtx-3060-ti-8gb-gddr6-pci-express-4-0-graphics-card-steel-and-black/6439402.p?skuId=6439402 It seems like there's no 3060 FE, so there hasn't been a big stock of $329 3060s on Best Buy shelves.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:12
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$329 in 2014 is ~410 now which puts you at 3060ti FE price
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Sep 21, 2022 17:15
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kliras posted:regarding dlss 3 support, official answer is that ada is just that much faster at optical flow that it's actually feasible that's cute, the only one that's under 1000 bux can't be had for under 1000 bux because the AIB partners are gonna charge 60-100 over that price as is tradition
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Sep 21, 2022 17:26
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Cygni posted:This is from June and Ti prices have decreased a lot, as i noted in the original post. But yes, the 3060 is the best cost per frame card Nvidia has ever released with the asterisk that the Ti's new street price might have passed it since this was made. 3060 Tis still arent at MSRP from what ive seen though. Nobody is buying a modern GPU to run at medium settings where the GPU isn't even stressed properly. Awful testing by HWUB. Not to mention, those prices don't pass the sniff test. I'm fairly certain 3060s were not $380 in June.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:26
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so do we reckon these prices are nvidia stalling until they clear out excess ampere inventory, then they cut prices to something more sane, or are they trying to anchor this as the new normal
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Sep 21, 2022 17:37
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I think the answer is somewhere in between. It's an acknowledgement the market will see a surfeit of 30xx cards that will undercut mid- and low-end offerings right now, so target the high-end for now. But we're coming out of some bizarre times - may be coming out, actually - so maybe they're hedging too. So many people bought cards at overpriced $1000+ prices they would never have contemplated pre-pandemic. Did that establish a new normal? I personally think not and that those folks are probably telling themselves never again, like I am with the $920 3080 which is good enough and more for a while to come. But definitely a good time to wait and watch ... and hope, which is what those prices are lol
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Sep 21, 2022 17:42
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I mean I was willing to pay over MSRP for my 3070 because the government cut me a check and I wasn't going outside for a year, they have to acknowledge poo poo has changed
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Sep 21, 2022 17:47
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Cygni posted:This is from June and Ti prices have decreased a lot, as i noted in the original post. But yes, the 3060 is the best cost per frame card Nvidia has ever released with the asterisk that the Ti's new street price might have passed it since this was made. 3060 Tis still arent at MSRP from what ive seen though. The cost of a GPU isn't the cost of the system. If you are spending $1,000 (for a round #) on a system, spending an extra $120 (12%) for the 3060 Ti to get a 30% boost in performance makes a lot of sense. Grey Hunter posted:My "Problem" now is do I get a 3070 now, or save in the hopes the 3080's drop down in price in the next few months If you can wait/save, I'd get the 3080 just because the extra 4gb of VRAM will help with your use cases. Inept fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 17:48
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repiv posted:so do we reckon these prices are nvidia stalling until they clear out excess ampere inventory, then they cut prices to something more sane, or are they trying to anchor this as the new normal Isn't at least some of the price hike effectively transferring the increased cost from TSMC's new node to the customer? TSMC's near effective monopoly on cutting edge nodes seems to be as big a factor in electronic price hikes as anything else.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:56
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change my name posted:I mean I was willing to pay over MSRP for my 3070 because the government cut me a check and I wasn't going outside for a year, they have to acknowledge poo poo has changed Yeah, with the absence of stimulus, looming recession, definite increases in cost of living, and the inability to use these things as money printers since Crypto ate poo poo and Ethereum went proof of stake, sky high prices seem ill-timed to say the least. Another factor causing elevated prices last year was the 25% tariff that isn't the case now - if the right political factors come together and put something like that back in place, they're gonna sell fuckin' miserably low numbers of these things.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:58
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what a bargain! https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1572630518692450304
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Sep 21, 2022 17:58
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I'm sure they're trying to anchor the price higher, and will hesitate to drop prices. I'm betting on them doing another Super refresh next summer with marginal performance increases and marginal price decreases. Of course, if sales are poor enough, they may have no choice but to drop prices sooner.
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Sep 21, 2022 17:58
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K8.0 posted:Are you smoking crack? The 3060 is literally the worst price/performance GPU Nvidia has in their stack, and always has been. It's also got to be the absolute champion of bad value compared to products further up the stack. Never has Nvidia tried to sell you an x60 that was half the price for half the performance of the x80/x80Ti tier. Even notorious stinkers like the original 2060 at its original pricing look like a bargain by comparison. It’s kinda hilarious that people just ate it up when the EVGA ceo was talking about how the 3060 was the best card in the stack for them… like hmm why do you think that would be, why exactly would partners like the 3060 and its pricing so much?  like, if consumers want more margin for partners, I suppose lobbying for more products with 3060-level value is certainly one way to get there! Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 18:13 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 18:08
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Cygni posted:What do you mean "better card for its time"? The 3060 is the best cost per frame ("value") that Nvidia has ever released in their history to date*. At the time means compared to what the demands were on average requirements and monitors. Of course newer cards are better for the money, I figured anyone would realize that "At the time" doesn't mean comparing a new MSRP card from 2014 vs one from 2020 and acting like that was a real choice. A 970 gave you enough power to run just about any game at full settings on the kind of monitors an enthusiast was likely to have at the time (1080/1200p). It was very easy to justify moving up from the 960 for the cost and there wasn't much reason to move to a 980. If your just saying the only value is dollar per frame than the iGPU wins. Though I think asking "Why isn't there a value choice like a 970 anymore" is a bit misleading since that was a better value choice than previous gens and subsequent gens, so it's an outlier not a common expectation. CoolCab posted:inflation has bit pretty hard since 2016 or whatever when the 970 came out too, even in america. it wasn't just the mining crisis that dragged prices up even if it did 99% of the work. 2014. $329 in 2014 is worth like $410 now, and that's probably a low estimate. So in that sense, there's a big reason why the sub-$400 cards are so far down the stack.
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Sep 21, 2022 18:09
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The 970 was also exceptionally low-priced for the x70 segment even for its day. The first x70 card was the GTX 470 at $349, then it goes $349, $399, $399, $329, and back to $399. But you lower it for one generation and that’s the one everyone remembers. I’m sure in hindsight NVIDIA really wishes they hadn’t done that, because now everybody remembers this as the “$329 segment” and not the “$400 segment” as is more typical. And the 470 came out in 2010, so that $349 GTX 470 is the equivalent of $603 today… using CPI, which probably is an understatement. The generations people focus on, like the Radeon 4850 and GTX 970, are outliers. 28nm was cheap so Maxwell was cheap, same for ampere. Turing was cheap for NVIDIA, and they cut prices later in the gen to suit, but it had a similar inventory problem so it launched higher and dropped the price later. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 18:19
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Yeah you can still get a decent card for around $400 but I think the difference is that you used to get like 80% of the top card's performance back then. Now you spend a grand and still feel like some sort of pleb. By 60 whole euros!  
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Sep 21, 2022 18:20
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mobby_6kl posted:By 60 whole euros! just kidding they already changed the price to €2100
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Sep 21, 2022 18:38
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runaway dog posted:that's cute, the only one that's under 1000 bux can't be had for under 1000 bux because the AIB partners are gonna charge 150-200 over that price as is tradition FTFY Also  at them passing that scam "totally not a 4070" card to partners only so they can scrape some extra $$$ up
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Sep 21, 2022 19:08
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For all the hand wringing in this thread (myself included), make no mistake: 4090 and 3080’s will be sold out for weeks.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:09
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repiv posted:just kidding they already changed the price to €2100  Animal posted:For all the hand wringing in this thread (myself included), make no mistake: 4090 and 3080’s will be sold out for weeks.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:17
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K8.0 posted:Nobody is buying a modern GPU to run at medium settings where the GPU isn't even stressed properly. Awful testing by HWUB. Not to mention, those prices don't pass the sniff test. I'm fairly certain 3060s were not $380 in June. Post I quoted was specifically was talking about 1440p, but heres 4k. Thesis doesn't really change, though the Ti is now on top for nvidia.  Lockback posted:At the time means compared to what the demands were on average requirements and monitors. Of course newer cards are better for the money, I figured anyone would realize that "At the time" doesn't mean comparing a new MSRP card from 2014 vs one from 2020 and acting like that was a real choice. A 970 gave you enough power to run just about any game at full settings on the kind of monitors an enthusiast was likely to have at the time (1080/1200p). It was very easy to justify moving up from the 960 for the cost and there wasn't much reason to move to a 980. I don't think thats a realistic expectation because thats not how technology works, everything isn't advancing at equal rates with equal costs. And with the future of IC process improvement looking more and more bleak, GPU gains are going to continue to get more and more pricey for less and less improvement. Even if QD-OLED printing gives everyone cheap 4k/144hz screens soon (for example, god i hope), theres no guarantee that driving them will be as cheap or efficient as prior generations. Aint no free lunches. Cygni fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 19:32
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Animal posted:For all the hand wringing in this thread (myself included), make no mistake: 4090 and 3080’s will be sold out for weeks. yeah I'll probably wait a few weeks for supply to normalize (if I don't get one on launch day) but I will definitely be buying a 4090, I basically only play games when I'm not working so I don't mind paying more for the best hardware if that's my big thing This DLSS 3.0 thing sounds kind of like the annoying VR frame interpolation and the only reason that works is because the alternative is vomiting as your entire field of vision is choppy, a problem that doesn't exist on a flat TV. No thanks, I just want to see how much raster performance has improved, though hopefully RT performance has improved to the point where you can play CP2077 RTX on without DLSS on at playable frame rates.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:34
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I’ll likely be one of those stupid ones an attempt a 4090 purchase, i’ll even go up to a 100$ more for an AIB, it’s a lot of money of course but I am playing at 4k and it’s nice to just throw everything at max settings and not have to worry about it for at least 2 years. Zen4 is exciting but I can at least wait for x3d models to come out. I’ll be sure to watch and read every review likely coming out the day before committing.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:42
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Shipon posted:yeah I'll probably wait a few weeks for supply to normalize (if I don't get one on launch day) but I will definitely be buying a 4090, I basically only play games when I'm not working so I don't mind paying more for the best hardware if that's my big thing Judging by the specs and marketing fps charts and prices, IMO the 4090 is the only one worth going for rather than getting (or keeping) a 30 series. If I wasn't locked in to a SFF build I'd get the 4090.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:46
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Depending on what DLSS3 does with flight simulator maybe there’s an argument for the 4080 16GB, though crazy flight simmers dropping >1k on their GPU probably would want the 4090 to go with their 4 figures of simpit…
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Sep 21, 2022 19:48
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hobbesmaster posted:Depending on what DLSS3 does with flight simulator maybe there’s an argument for the 4080 16GB, though crazy flight simmers dropping >1k on their GPU probably would want the 4090 to go with their 4 figures of simpit… I'm that guy.
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Sep 21, 2022 19:49
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Paul MaudDib posted:The 970 was also exceptionally low-priced for the x70 segment even for its day. The first x70 card was the GTX 470 at $349, then it goes $349, $399, $399, $329, and back to $399. My issue is that my mental value calculator is calibrated based on having purchased an EVGA 1080 for $430 in 2018 ($510 2022 dollars) Where's my $550 RTX3080?? 
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Sep 21, 2022 19:49
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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DCS desperately needs something like DLSS3 too. Also an overclockable 3D cache cpu…
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Sep 21, 2022 19:50
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hobbesmaster posted:DCS desperately needs something like DLSS3 too. Also an overclockable 3D cache cpu… Yeah until they implement efficient multi threading (lol) the best thing you can do is the upcoming next gen AMD 3D cache CPUs. The game is woefully bottlenecked by single threading. If DLSS3 works as I think it does, it would be a huge improvement because the GPU could create frames to jump over the CPU stutters and it would smooth things out, and on a flight sim you don't have to worry about input latency unless you are moving your head around like crazy with the TrackIR. But ED will never implement DLSS3, so its a moot point.
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Sep 21, 2022 20:03
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"Theoretically possible" old RTX cards will get DLSS3 support https://twitter.com/ctnzr/status/1572358120130871297?s=20&t=9nu_WhZT74H0uJXfm1v_Og 
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Sep 21, 2022 20:07
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Rinkles posted:"Theoretically possible" old RTX cards will get DLSS3 support Yes I'm sure they want to sell even more used mining cards, they'll get right on that. edit: VRR without dedicated G-Sync chips was theoretically possibly too and it took them years to finally cave Zero VGS fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 21, 2022 |
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Sep 21, 2022 20:10
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