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Hikaru's last stream highlighted two things based on what the CEO of Chess.com said on Reddit yesterday: Ken Regan, the "anti-cheat" guy that keeps getting cited and says Hans has no cheating behavior, has no involvement at all with how Chess.com detects cheaters. I believe his anti-cheating system is used by a lot of FIDE stuff? Please correct me.  but this one really seems to imply that Hans cheated more after admitting to it in 2020:  and i imagine for the size of a site that Chess.com is, implying something like that would be wild if he doesn't have something
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Sep 22, 2022 05:01
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Simply make 1 minute chess the main prestige format so nobody has time to cheat
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Sep 22, 2022 05:01
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cheetah7071 posted:Simply make 1 minute chess the main prestige format so nobody has time to cheat yeah this with a 15 minute delay sounds good to me
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Sep 22, 2022 05:04
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Starsfan posted:Yeah the delay I think goes a long way towards beating a variety of different types of cheating. at least I think it works fairly well for televised poker tournaments.. Then you're down to cheating in house by various methods which is obviously much easier for the arbiters to detect. I read that he gained rating at all USCF tournaments that had real-time video and lost rating at all events that didn't over a span of 19 tournaments.  Assuming this list is true and complete, that would be suspiciously unlikely. If gaining or losing rating is equally probable, the odds of that specific outcome would be 1 in 524,288.
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Sep 22, 2022 05:09
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I don't remember the details but the methodology in that image is suspect, apparently
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Sep 22, 2022 05:10
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fisting by many posted:I read that he gained rating at all USCF tournaments that had real-time video and lost rating at all events that didn't over a span of 19 tournaments. some people just perform well under the lights
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Sep 22, 2022 05:12
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cheetah7071 posted:the clause about electronic devices allowed by the arbiter is a kind of funny loophole because a while back a blind player cheated by claiming his blutooth audio device was just reading back the moves of the game, when in fact it was connected to the internet and he was being fed moves by a collaborator i found a video of this guy and its even cooler than it sounds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-34PE5ICGk
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Sep 22, 2022 05:34
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FYI here is Niemann's rating history: FIDE https://ratings.fide.com/profile/2093596/chart USCF http://www.uschess.org/datapage/ratings_graph.php?memid=15041466 Tournament History: http://www.uschess.org/msa/MbrDtlTnmtHst.php?15041466.1 totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Sep 22, 2022 |
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Sep 22, 2022 05:47
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totalnewbie posted:Stick 'em in a Faraday Cage Would a faraday cage do anything if there's no signal getting sent outside the box, because the cheater is smuggling a computer on their person? I feel like you could make a computer small enough that machines can't detect it, and if you only use it 2 or 3 times a game then whatever behavior you do to activate it (tapping your foot, rubbing your scalp) won't be caught. At some point in the course of human progress we're going to run into an Oscar Pistorius situation where someone with a traumatic brain injury gets a computer plugged into their noggin and they just run Stockfish on it.
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Sep 22, 2022 06:11
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TheRat posted:He also revealed that Hans' coach was Maxim Dlugy, who's also been banned for cheating online. so has this been confirmed or is this another Magnus style accusation? e: I mean being the coach thing, not the cheating thing qsvui fucked around with this message at 06:51 on Sep 22, 2022 |
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Sep 22, 2022 06:38
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Would a faraday cage do anything if there's no signal getting sent outside the box, because the cheater is smuggling a computer on their person? I feel like you could make a computer small enough that machines can't detect it, and if you only use it 2 or 3 times a game then whatever behavior you do to activate it (tapping your foot, rubbing your scalp) won't be caught. Without a signal, you'd have to input moves into it somehow. Using it on one move or on every move is the same number of butt clenches or whatever.
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Sep 22, 2022 07:47
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Civilized Fishbot posted:Would a faraday cage do anything if there's no signal getting sent outside the box, because the cheater is smuggling a computer on their person? I feel like you could make a computer small enough that machines can't detect it, and if you only use it 2 or 3 times a game then whatever behavior you do to activate it (tapping your foot, rubbing your scalp) won't be caught. Presumably you would also scan their persons for electronics. X-ray their shoes, stuff like that. Aronian said if they gave 5% of their attention to it, they could eliminate it and I think he's right. He also said to remove the incentive or the temptation but I'm not sure that that's ever possible.
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Sep 22, 2022 08:48
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Aronian said in interview yesterday that his suspicion of Hans made him more doubtful, and play worse. That also seems to be what happened with Carlsen and Firouzja in the Sinquefield Cup. So just having a reputation as a cheater is enough to give you a psychological edge at top levels.
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Sep 22, 2022 10:40
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qsvui posted:so has this been confirmed or is this another Magnus style accusation? He owns the chess academy Hans studied at, it's not clear how much he personally coached him but they definitely know each other and that isn't a secret.
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Sep 22, 2022 11:55
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rollick posted:Aronian said in interview yesterday that his suspicion of Hans made him more doubtful, and play worse. That also seems to be what happened with Carlsen and Firouzja in the Sinquefield Cup. I guess they would know how it feels but since a cheater is essentially unbeatable based on what people have been saying, why would this cause you to play worse? It's not like if you try extra hard you're going to win against an engine
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Sep 22, 2022 13:58
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joe football posted:I guess they would know how it feels but since a cheater is essentially unbeatable based on what people have been saying, why would this cause you to play worse? It's not like if you try extra hard you're going to win against an engine they have no actual proof he is currently cheating in the game they are in, they can only go off the game they're playing. making an unusual move like Hans did makes you think "is there some huge line I'm missing here?" instead of just playing against it as normal if you have to suspect them of cheating all the time
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Sep 22, 2022 15:06
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Similar; why do you get asked for your rating when you play a simul? The entire fun in playing against a human is that you try to figure out why they're making the moves they just did. Every Elo has a different purpose to their moves, and trying to unpack the psychology of a computer novelty is not really the same thing.
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Sep 22, 2022 15:12
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AARD VARKMAN posted:they have no actual proof he is currently cheating in the game they are in, they can only go off the game they're playing. making an unusual move like Hans did makes you think "is there some huge line I'm missing here?" instead of just playing against it as normal if you have to suspect them of cheating all the time I guess I might just be more fatalistic then elite(or even good) chess players, but I'd just look it as if they're able to cheat effectively then I've pretty much lost just by sitting down at the board so there's no reason to worry about it or change my approach during the game
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Sep 22, 2022 15:33
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neaden posted:He owns the chess academy Hans studied at, it's not clear how much he personally coached him but they definitely know each other and that isn't a secret. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ_5LBvH6Do&t=1674s
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Sep 22, 2022 15:41
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i still think Magnus is doing this the most childish way possible, but if he actually got proof Hans has been cheating online post-2020 admittal then it'd be hard for me to argue with not wanting to play against him anywhere
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Sep 22, 2022 15:45
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AARD VARKMAN posted:i still think Magnus is doing this the most childish way possible, but if he actually got proof Hans has been cheating online post-2020 admittal then it'd be hard for me to argue with not wanting to play against him anywhere Seems kind of silly that the line Hans shouldn't cross is lying about when exactly he cheated.
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Sep 22, 2022 15:51
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Seems kind of silly that the line Hans shouldn't cross is lying about when exactly he cheated. the issue is that the professional chess world has kind of accepted that he was a cheater up to that point. if he admitted to cheating, everyone accepted he wouldn't cheat anymore, and then he started cheating again, what possible reason would there be to believe he isn't cheating now? It's one thing to give someone a second chance and another to just keep letting them play after they blew that second chance and hoping some anti-cheating algorithm will catch him.
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Sep 22, 2022 15:58
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PERPETUAL IDIOT posted:Seems kind of silly that the line Hans shouldn't cross is lying about when exactly he cheated. An admitted cheater has very very little credibility. He basically gets one chance to come clean about past cheating if he wants anyone to ever believe he isn't cheating or won't cheat in the future. When he took that one chance to come clean, he did admit past cheating, but he lied about the amount and the seriousness. The lie really tips it from "maybe this is GMs being paranoid about a talented kid and ruining his rep" to "you are a lying cheater that should never be invited to a chess tournament ever again."
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Sep 22, 2022 17:21
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i dont really follow pro chess other than meme stuff, but has petrosian been invited to play in any (international) otb tournaments since 'pipi in pampers'?
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Sep 22, 2022 17:40
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got some chores tonight posted:i dont really follow pro chess other than meme stuff, but has petrosian been invited to play in any (international) otb tournaments since 'pipi in pampers'? e: using fide, it looks like the answer is no, he just plays in armenia now. hes also dropped 50 pts in classical since the whole scandal, fwiw
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Sep 22, 2022 17:43
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got some chores tonight posted:i dont really follow pro chess other than meme stuff, but has petrosian been invited to play in any (international) otb tournaments since 'pipi in pampers'? He was at the Olympiad. e: If you're talking about Sinquefield Cup level invitational stuff, he was never at that level.
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Sep 22, 2022 17:44
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got some chores tonight posted:i dont really follow pro chess other than meme stuff, but has petrosian been invited to play in any (international) otb tournaments since 'pipi in pampers'? Are you kidding ??? What the **** are you talking about man ? You are a biggest looser i ever seen in my life ! You was doing PIPI in your pampers when i was beating players much more stronger then you! You are not proffesional, because proffesionals knew how to lose and congratulate opponents, you are like a girl crying after i beat you! Be brave, be honest to yourself and stop this trush talkings!!! Everybody know that i am very good blitz player, i can win anyone in the world in single game! And "w"esley "s"o is nobody for me, just a player who are crying every single time when loosing, ( remember what you say about Firouzja ) !!! Stop playing with my name, i deserve to have a good name during whole my chess carrier, I am Officially inviting you to OTB blitz match with the Prize fund! Both of us will invest 5000$ and winner takes it all! I suggest all other people who's intrested in this situation, just take a look at my results in 2016 and 2017 Blitz World championships, and that should be enough... No need to listen for every crying babe, Tigran Petrosyan is always play Fair ! And if someone will continue Officially talk about me like that, we will meet in Court! God bless with true! True will never die ! Liers will kicked off... _________________/ 
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Sep 22, 2022 17:47
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The Olympiad is a good example of a tournament where there were rumors/suspicion of a lot of cheating. I think that is a big background piece in terms of why some of the top players have reached their limit. Everyone keeps saying the way Magnus handled this was childish or so on, but I don't know what other course of action anyone thinks was legally realistic for him to take.
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Sep 22, 2022 18:08
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The thing is, this isn’t really a case of “Should Niemann continue to be allowed to attend over-the-board tournaments, or was Carlsen wrong and should apologize?” The two are basically separate questions. Magnus could have easily raised the big question about cheating in chess without ruining the Sinquefield Cup, but he chose to put his own anger and embarrassment over the interest of the other competitors in having the round-robin event occur as planned. Carlsen has the right to refuse to attend tournaments where known online cheaters are playing if he wants; as with his decision not to contest the World Champion title, the “George R. R. Martin is not your bitch” rule applies. But that doesn’t make his recent behavior appropriate.
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Sep 22, 2022 18:10
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nrook posted:Magnus could have easily raised the big question about cheating in chess without ruining the Sinquefield Cup, but he chose to put his own anger and embarrassment over the interest of the other competitors in having the round-robin event occur as planned. Okay, so tell us what other, legally clear, east way he could have raised the question of cheating. And it's really clear that Magnus wasn't acting out of embarrassment or anger.
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Sep 22, 2022 18:34
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fisting by many posted:I read that he gained rating at all USCF tournaments that had real-time video and lost rating at all events that didn't over a span of 19 tournaments. This is bad application of stats because you are inventing a reason for the correlation when other reasons might exist. Like it makes sense he would gain points at the junior open if he's way better than other juniors, but lose points at a world open, so the chance of gain/losing rating is not 50/50 in that case. And generally the more important tournaments with bigger competitors are going to have real time video. I think Hans is likely to have been or currently be cheating beyond what he already admitted to, but this alone is a bad argument.
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Sep 22, 2022 18:43
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Sub Rosa posted:Everyone keeps saying the way Magnus handled this was childish or so on, but I don't know what other course of action anyone thinks was legally realistic for him to take.
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Sep 22, 2022 19:02
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got some chores tonight posted:i dont really follow pro chess other than meme stuff, but has petrosian been invited to play in any (international) otb tournaments since 'pipi in pampers'? More interesting question will be what happens to Parham Maghsoodloo who also got banned from one of the online sites for cheating.
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Sep 22, 2022 19:30
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Sub Rosa posted:Okay, so tell us what other, legally clear, east way he could have raised the question of cheating. It’s difficult to say the best way Carlsen could have gone about this, but it’s not at all difficult to come up with a better way. If nothing else, he could have withdrawn from the Sinquefield Cup before it started, allowing the organizers to find a replacement player. Similarly, he could have withdrawn from the tournament going on right now. e: I suspect Carlsen could just say he refuses to play in events where Niemann is playing in the future, but I don’t know for sure if that’s allowed under FIDE rules. I can’t find anything banning it. And, well, what he did in the Sinquefield Cup isn’t allowed either. nrook fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Sep 22, 2022 |
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Sep 22, 2022 19:43
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If we're talking about the Olympiad, literally the top three teams in the open tournament had players who've been banned online, right? And that's just the cases that are publicly known. I just don't see how the current drama can address that without taking a broader scope in mind.
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Sep 22, 2022 20:08
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potential crisis has been averted, Hans Nieman crashes out of the Generations cup in the first knock out round - no Magnus / Hans final for us to obsess over this time lolChromatics posted:This is bad application of stats because you are inventing a reason for the correlation when other reasons might exist. Like it makes sense he would gain points at the junior open if he's way better than other juniors, but lose points at a world open, so the chance of gain/losing rating is not 50/50 in that case. And generally the more important tournaments with bigger competitors are going to have real time video. It's a good point, obviously the strength of the opponents is not necessarily the same in every tournament in the chart and who even knows if the "yes / no" field accurately reflects whether it would possible for an outside observer to get the moves in real time. It is definitely something that people will be paying attention to with the player going forward though.. Like in this generations cup I watched the entire broadcast today and I can't help but notice that they never showed Nieman's live match on the broadcast, despite a constant barrage of messages in the chat to please show the Hans / Le game lol Starsfan fucked around with this message at 20:27 on Sep 22, 2022 |
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Sep 22, 2022 20:19
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I recall people saying that the chart does not accurately identify which events had live streaming, and is thus a bad data source before you even do any statistics
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Sep 22, 2022 20:24
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cheetah7071 posted:I recall people saying that the chart does not accurately identify which events had live streaming, and is thus a bad data source before you even do any statistics that just means you need advanced statistics to discern the truth
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Sep 23, 2022 01:30
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Starsfan posted:
All the games were broadcasted live, just not necessarily shown on the live video.
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Sep 23, 2022 02:09
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Sub Rosa posted:And it's really clear that Magnus wasn't acting out of embarrassment or anger. 
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Sep 23, 2022 03:10
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