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Poor Rachel. She's so, so hosed up.
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Sep 26, 2022 03:30
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Chapter 25quote:If I got out of this one alive, I was never going to use my rat morph again. Ever. So we leave on a confused Rachel, who wants to do the right thing, but doesn't know what it is. So what did people think of the book? I know some people before we started it criticized it, but I really don't think it was that bad. I kind of liked it...it got down to Rachel's doubts about herself, her fears, her desires, and I think it did a good job explaining what makes Rachel Rachel. Is there anybody who didn't like it who changed their opinion? Or vice versa? We're going to start the new book day after tomorrow. It's book 49, The Diversion, and it was ghostwritten by Lisa Harkrader, who last ghostwrote the book where Cassie goes to Australia and where (if my theory is right, and I see no evidence it isn't), probably got the entire community she stayed with infested with Yeerks.
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Sep 26, 2022 03:40
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I like it. It's way more introspective than some, but I think we need that at this stage of the game. I asked earlier, but have we gotten up to the "we were children no longer" quote yet?
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Sep 26, 2022 03:45
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I understand why they couldn't really show Rachel leaving the island and directly let child readers wonder if she killed him or not, but I do wish we had a coda showing Rachel having to come back home and continue the war even after that genuinely horrific moment. It's better than I remember. I think at the time it got more of a bad reception because, frankly, the pulp market was awash in "Join the Dark Side" stories on the backs of Star Wars' resurgent popularity in the late 90s. So many pieces of kids' media back then had the episode or story where a character was tempted with great power and then turned it down, so it couldn't help but feel a bit stock in concept, although David and Crayak's history with the character add a lot more shading.
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Sep 26, 2022 03:50
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Honestly I always thought she spared him. That it was the last red line she couldn't bring herself to cross and preserve what's left of her humanity.
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Sep 26, 2022 04:03
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:I like it. It's way more introspective than some, but I think we need that at this stage of the game. Not yet.
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Sep 26, 2022 04:57
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Never having read these later books, I thought it was goofy, for the same reason Crayak and the Ellimist are. They're completely all-powerful; they could just change one gene or tweak one chemical or whatever and she'd do whatever they want, and the idea that Crayak can't get her to just falls flat. None of the middle section of the book feels like there's any dilemma at all; it's basically just dream logic. And the problem with "trapped in a dream" stories is there's no consistency and the rules are constantly changing. When you're working at a galaxy-destroying scale and the stakes are everything they're nothing at all.
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Sep 26, 2022 05:01
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Yeah, there's been a few dream logic/alternate timeline/stuck in a simulation books, and none of them really work for me. At least the characters get irritated at the ellimist messing with them, which I can sympathise with...
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Sep 26, 2022 05:17
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This last chapter, to me at least, is probably the hardest hitting thing in the entire series. Just...goddamn. What an absolutely hosed situation for a pair of absolutely hosed people. Vandar fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 05:24
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Vandar posted:This last chapter, to me at least, is probably the hardest hottest thing in the entire series. Its up there but there are like 3 upcoming bits I think hit even harder.
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Sep 26, 2022 05:30
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I guess my view of the thing is that as part of the rules they set up, neither the Elimist or Crayak can remove free will. Their agents have to agree to serve them.that doesn't mean they cant lie or manipulate, but they can't say "Bam. You're evil now". And I think that's why the bok works for me.all of Rachel's choices throughout the book and the series have been her choices, and now she's trying to come to terms with them and what they mean, and I'd she actually is a " good" person. That's also why David is there, because the David trilogy is the first time that the Animorphs acted in a way that they all found morally troubling...and that regardless, it was Cassee, who's usually the conscience of the group, who came up with the plan, but it was Rachel who was the one to have to carry it out. So, I'd say the book is a character study, more than anything.
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Sep 26, 2022 05:35
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Fuschia tude posted:Never having read these later books, I thought it was goofy, for the same reason Crayak and the Ellimist are. They're completely all-powerful; they could just change one gene or tweak one chemical or whatever and she'd do whatever they want, and the idea that Crayak can't get her to just falls flat. None of the middle section of the book feels like there's any dilemma at all; it's basically just dream logic. And the problem with "trapped in a dream" stories is there's no consistency and the rules are constantly changing. When you're working at a galaxy-destroying scale and the stakes are everything they're nothing at all. Yes, that's exactly the point. They're all but gods. What do gods do with their time? Torment mortals.
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Sep 26, 2022 05:37
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I was not a fan of most of the book, as mentioned the plot tends to suffer when there are no real rules in dreamlike worlds, but as a character piece it does a better job than I remembered of showing who Rachel is now and the last chapter is very poignant and memorable. Looking forward to 49, from what I recall every book from now on is an absolute banger. No more filler!
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Sep 26, 2022 07:31
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Fuschia tude posted:None of the middle section of the book feels like there's any dilemma at all; it's basically just dream logic. And the problem with "trapped in a dream" stories is there's no consistency and the rules are constantly changing. When you're working at a galaxy-destroying scale and the stakes are everything they're nothing at all. Agreed. The beginning and the very ending are good but the middle is not. It's still unclear to me what was actually happening there - was Cassie actually there, did V1 get teleported in there, did Rachel actually transform into a giant mutant, or was it all illusory mind games? I think the concept was probably sound but would've worked better without all that stuff. We've seen Crayak manipulate them before without nightmare/dream logic - book 26 on the crazy alien planet vs the Howlers is great and you never doubt it's actually all happening for real. They could've written a book in which David returns as an agent of Crayak but whatever is going on is more grounded in reality, and it would've been much better. Vandar posted:This last chapter, to me at least, is probably the hardest hitting thing in the entire series. I dunno. To me it's basically a rehash of the end of the original David trilogy: either kill someone or let them live horrifically because you're too squeamish to do it. Except in the first go-around they literally trap him as a rat whereas this time it's just his status quo. Zore posted:Its up there but there are like 3 upcoming bits I think hit even harder. It's revealing how good the series and the series ending is that I can't even guess what these are because there's quite a few options. But my picks would be: (Serious loving end of series spoilers, I'm wording them vaguely but do not highlight these unless you want to spoil the series!) 3. Ax's "betrayal" 2. Pool ship massacre 1. Rachel's last mission edit - also, cool, I was trying to remember precisely when no. 3 occurs and just realised there's 6 books left, not 4. And yeah they're definitely all hits from here on out freebooter fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 08:28
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freebooter posted:Agreed. The beginning and the very ending are good but the middle is not. It's still unclear to me what was actually happening there - was Cassie actually there, did V1 get teleported in there, did Rachel actually transform into a giant mutant, or was it all illusory mind games? Yeah, only 2 was on my list but I absolutely agree with the others. I was thinking specifically Again, major spoilers 3. Literally everything to do with the Auxiliary Animorphs 2. Jake and Erik 1. The Hague
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Sep 26, 2022 08:36
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Do they really not kill him this time either? Surely he's paid for his crimes by now, give him a break
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Sep 26, 2022 11:15
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Crespolini posted:Do they really not kill him this time either? Surely he's paid for his crimes by now, give him a break 
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Sep 26, 2022 11:49
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Crespolini posted:Do they really not kill him this time either? Surely he's paid for his crimes by now, give him a break It's left ambiguous. I think no, others think yes.
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Sep 26, 2022 11:49
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:It's left ambiguous. I think no, others think yes. I'm going to also go with no. She's desperately grasping for a reason to say she's a good person, and she can just... not kill him. It's much easier to do nothing than force yourself to do something terrible.
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Sep 26, 2022 12:45
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Capfalcon posted:I'm going to also go with no. She's desperately grasping for a reason to say she's a good person, and she can just... not kill him. It's much easier to do nothing than force yourself to do something terrible.  Fuschia tude posted:Never having read these later books, I thought it was goofy, for the same reason Crayak and the Ellimist are. They're completely all-powerful; they could just change one gene or tweak one chemical or whatever and she'd do whatever they want, and the idea that Crayak can't get her to just falls flat. None of the middle section of the book feels like there's any dilemma at all; it's basically just dream logic. And the problem with "trapped in a dream" stories is there's no consistency and the rules are constantly changing. When you're working at a galaxy-destroying scale and the stakes are everything they're nothing at all. It still hits the weird uncanny "well ok I guess we're doing this bullshit now" frequency that all the Q episodes did, but when I enter that same headspace it goes down smoother. "Ok so what happens here is just scaffolding to do a character play, and odds are high it won't be even slightly relevant to the wider plot." JesusSinfulHands posted:as a character piece it does a better job than I remembered of showing who Rachel is now and the last chapter is very poignant and memorable. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 14:38 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 14:32
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I still don't like it, but it's not worth fighting about when the next book is so great. I will say, though, that as the last appearance of Crayak, it really makes him look like a chump. His big new ally is David, who's been a rat for two years or whatever? Rachel's character has been thoroughly simplified so she's now "bloodthirsty" instead of "dangerously thrill-seeking," and he can't even get her to kill her worst enemy? Blah.
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Sep 26, 2022 16:27
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disaster pastor posted:I will say, though, that as the last appearance of Crayak, it really makes him look like a chump. His big new ally is David, who's been a rat for two years or whatever? Rachel's character has been thoroughly simplified so she's now "bloodthirsty" instead of "dangerously thrill-seeking," and he can't even get her to kill her worst enemy? Blah. I also politely disagree in the broad strokes with Rachel, as I do think that kind-of reductionism is part of the tragic point of her arc, but that isn't the same as asking you to think it's done well or that you have to approve of it. I'm with you that it's a bad deal for Crayak's last appearance. That thread didn't need resolution but it could have used a better capstone. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 16:53
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Capfalcon posted:I'm going to also go with no. She's desperately grasping for a reason to say she's a good person, and she can just... not kill him. It's much easier to do nothing than force yourself to do something terrible. ah, the poor rat, lol. it's like the inverse of that pratchet quote about how if someone has you at gunpoint you should hope they're evil enough to waste time gloating, because a good person will just kill you with no fanfare. whereas in this case "good" has twisted themselves into just doing insane cruelty every time
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Sep 26, 2022 16:58
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I don't remember if we're still showing the covers for these books, but the cover for this one is hilariously bad, and I wonder if that's colored its reputation somewhat. I appreciate that we get some character work for Rachel in this book, as the last several books narrated by her have just been random adventures. Her tendency towards violence and bloodthirst has seemed a bit... cartoony as of late, so even if this book isn't a huge success, I appreciate them trying to grapple with it. disaster pastor posted:I will say, though, that as the last appearance of Crayak, it really makes him look like a chump. His big new ally is David, who's been a rat for two years or whatever? Rachel's character has been thoroughly simplified so she's now "bloodthirsty" instead of "dangerously thrill-seeking," and he can't even get her to kill her worst enemy? Blah. It would have been better if Crayak were kind of disinterestedly sponsoring David, not really believing that he'd pull it off but willing to give him some leeway. It would fit with the Animorphs doing a pretty poor job of integrating David into their group. Epicurius posted:We're going to start the new book day after tomorrow. It's book 49, The Diversion Trying to keep this as vague as possible, I think this is the biggest failure in the books sticking to the narrator order. There is some stuff that happens to a character other than Tobias that begs to be seen from their point of view.
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Sep 26, 2022 17:02
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I pretty much gave up on doing cover pictures pretty early. They were a bunch of work to format and upload, tended to be really bad, and contained spoilers for the book. This one is pretty goofy, though, and if you want, I can tey to upload it.its basically just Rachel looking mean with long clawlike fingernails.
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Sep 26, 2022 17:43
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Mean and buff as poo poo!! I'm still trying to piece together what exactly the terms of the game here are - Ellimist got to choose a team and arrange Elfangor to meet them to give them the morphing power, to fight against Crayak's choice of the Yeerk Empire? With bonus interludes - I haven't counted, but book 7 is Ellimist's first direct interaction, do he and Crayak have an equal number of interactions with the group?
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Sep 26, 2022 18:19
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Mean and buff as poo poo!! The game isn't limited to Earth or even the Yeerk conflict as a whole, its a pretty minor part of it overall. They're presumably trading various terms and conditions for it all the time with the Ellimist being slightly more invested in the Animorphs with how carefully he put them together. My guess is for every event like this where Crayak gets to do the devil thing you get an event like book 13 where the Ellimist gets to play the same role but with Tobias. And this might be a direct repayment/reciprocal event to that. The Ellimist definitely gets more interactions with the cast but that may be because he's trading out letting Crayak influence poo poo on the other side of the galaxy in exchange for putting his finger on the scale harder for the Hork-Bajir and Humans. I think, counting their appearances, overall the Ellimist gets one more than Crayak because outside of this book and 7+13 they always appear in tandem iirc. And even then you get a tiny Crayak cameo in book 6 when Jake's hallucinating as the Yeerk is dying. So 7 is presumably something Ellimist traded to Crayak for a different opportunity elsewhere and they agreed to give each other the opportunity with Rachel/Tobias to play out in 13/this book in my headcanon. Every other interaction I believe we know the stakes. Zore fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 18:47
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mind the walrus posted:I also politely disagree in the broad strokes with Rachel, as I do think that kind-of reductionism is part of the tragic point of her arc, but that isn't the same as asking you to think it's done well or that you have to approve of it. I know it's the point and I do think it could have worked overall, especially if Applegate and Grant had written the whole series. But instead, Rachel's characterization gets haphazard (particularly compared to the others) in the 30s and 40s, as though the ghostwriters have gotten the note that she's supposed to be losing her boundaries and moving from "violence for the sake of the thrill" to "violence for the sake of violence" but don't know where on that scale she's supposed to be at the time of their book. So we just get, as Rochallor pointed out, assorted Rachel stuff that doesn't tie into anything around it (this is the most disconnected book of the finale arc; before this, she had the Helmacrons; before that was her nonsensical drive to be a better leader than Jake; before that was the starfish), while the others around her are like "whoa, Rachel's more bloodlusty than ever" to try to push the point. Which eventually leads to this, which is Rachel's last book so they have to finish moving her to the end of that scale, but can only do it in a clumsy way at this point, tossing aside all other characterization and making up stuff like "he called me Rachel of the Dark Heart when we met!" to fake that there was more logic and foreshadowing. I'll agree that the peek at her thoughts and feelings at the end of the book is good enough that it's genuinely good, though, and not just "the best part of this book."
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Sep 26, 2022 18:50
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disaster pastor posted:I know it's the point and I do think it could have worked overall, especially if Applegate and Grant had written the whole series. But instead, Rachel's characterization gets haphazard (particularly compared to the others) in the 30s and 40s, as though the ghostwriters have gotten the note that she's supposed to be losing her boundaries and moving from "violence for the sake of the thrill" to "violence for the sake of violence" but don't know where on that scale she's supposed to be at the time of their book. quote:I'll agree that the peek at her thoughts and feelings at the end of the book is good enough that it's genuinely good, though, and not just "the best part of this book." mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 22:02 on Sep 26, 2022 |
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Sep 26, 2022 19:04
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Comrade Blyatlov posted:Mean and buff as poo poo!! The gist seems to be more universal than a straight one to one, as the Ellimist smugs it up to the Drodge at the end of the Back to Before that he generously traded the chance to tempt Jake with Ellimist doing his own tampering with some other system. One thing that makes all the past interactions with Ellimist way better, imo, is remembering that he's basically a gamer playing a grand strategy game. So when the group decides to surrender to the Ellimist's game preserve all the way back in book 7, he's sitting in his gamer chair yelling, "Why is the AI in this game so boneheaded! I practically drew a map for them!" On an unrelated note, Crayak comes off as a chump in most of his interactions, outside of the Ellimist Chronicles. I can't think of an actual win he gets outside of flashbacks. Ellimist is always playing him pretty hard once they're both on the realm of the grand strategy perspective.
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Sep 26, 2022 19:12
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disaster pastor posted:I know it's the point and I do think it could have worked overall, especially if Applegate and Grant had written the whole series. But instead, Rachel's characterization gets haphazard (particularly compared to the others) in the 30s and 40s, as though the ghostwriters have gotten the note that she's supposed to be losing her boundaries and moving from "violence for the sake of the thrill" to "violence for the sake of violence" but don't know where on that scale she's supposed to be at the time of their book. This might have crystallized some thoughts about the ghostwritten books I've had. It's been a common sentiment that the ghostwritten stuff is bad, and I think a lot of us have had that opinion changed a lot over the course of this read-through. It's not that they're bad; it's that there's no real sense of a guiding hand through them. Supposedly Applegate and Grant were doing a finishing pass on these, but there's a lack of continuity or forward motion. Every author is doing their own individual thing, and sometimes that turns out great; the ghostwritten Tobias books have been great, and Cassie had a pair of excellent books awhile back. But you've got others who just want to write a dumb monster of the week. The Pemalite ship book or the outback adventure book could have been from any character's POV. And it's not that the KA Applegate books didn't have dumb MOTW stories, but there was usually a little more character development in those. For example, Tobias and Rachel's relationship has been a thing for a while, but when was the last time we got Rachel's POV thinking about Tobias instead of vice-versa?
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Sep 26, 2022 19:33
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In the grand scheme of things the war for Earth is a relatively minor battle. Remember that the Ellimist is thinking hundreds of years ahead. He made sure the one alien planet with the two symbiotic races who’s names I can’t remember would be safe, that way if Earth was lost the Yeerks would stop their conquests when they came across that world. He WANTS the Animorphs to win and Earth to be saved, but if they fail he’s got contingency plans ready for the next stage of things.
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Sep 26, 2022 20:43
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Rochallor posted:This might have crystallized some thoughts about the ghostwritten books I've had. It's been a common sentiment that the ghostwritten stuff is bad, and I think a lot of us have had that opinion changed a lot over the course of this read-through. It's not that they're bad; it's that there's no real sense of a guiding hand through them. Supposedly Applegate and Grant were doing a finishing pass on these, but there's a lack of continuity or forward motion. Every author is doing their own individual thing, and sometimes that turns out great; the ghostwritten Tobias books have been great, and Cassie had a pair of excellent books awhile back. But you've got others who just want to write a dumb monster of the week. The Pemalite ship book or the outback adventure book could have been from any character's POV. And it's not that the KA Applegate books didn't have dumb MOTW stories, but there was usually a little more character development in those. For example, Tobias and Rachel's relationship has been a thing for a while, but when was the last time we got Rachel's POV thinking about Tobias instead of vice-versa? Yeah, I generally agree with this, though sometimes it is just "the ghostwritten books are bad." But even the best ghostwritten books tend to be laser-focused on the narrator and the A-plot, whereas the best pre-ghostwriter books had a lot of other character-building and side stuff in them. Book 22 had the great conversation where Rachel essentially tells Jake "I know what I'm becoming, do you know what you're becoming?" and he grapples with that. Book 6 had Jake learning stuff about Tom and his life as a Controller. Book 13 is about freeing the Hork-Bajir and Tobias getting his morphing power back, but had Rachel's genius award as a through-line. Book 7 got subtle with it, with Rachel arguing against Marco about letting the Ellimist save them and their families, but not knowing what the reader knows, that Marco's mother is Visser One. I could go on. Others might disagree, but to me, this kind of moment largely disappears once we get into the second half of the series, other than a couple of outliers.
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Sep 26, 2022 22:33
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disaster pastor posted:Yeah, I generally agree with this, though sometimes it is just "the ghostwritten books are bad." But even the best ghostwritten books tend to be laser-focused on the narrator and the A-plot, whereas the best pre-ghostwriter books had a lot of other character-building and side stuff in them. Book 22 had the great conversation where Rachel essentially tells Jake "I know what I'm becoming, do you know what you're becoming?" and he grapples with that. Book 6 had Jake learning stuff about Tom and his life as a Controller. Book 13 is about freeing the Hork-Bajir and Tobias getting his morphing power back, but had Rachel's genius award as a through-line. Book 7 got subtle with it, with Rachel arguing against Marco about letting the Ellimist save them and their families, but not knowing what the reader knows, that Marco's mother is Visser One. I could go on. Others might disagree, but to me, this kind of moment largely disappears once we get into the second half of the series, other than a couple of outliers. That feels right to me. Applegrant books had B and C plots; ghostwritten books were mostly one-note, with A plots only.
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Sep 26, 2022 22:59
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I'm not versed enough on who actually wrote each ghostbook, but I also can't help but imagine you've got a lot of lesser-experienced (and frankly poorer) writers essentially working the trenches with no real skin in the long-term success of the series or deep investment in the lore beyond general "oh that's cool" when discovering it for the assignment. Their boss hands them an outline. They're going to focus on delivering the product asked for, not trying to prove their bonafides in an industry where doing so is easily punished by simply not choosing to hire them anymore.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:18
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Applegate and Grant confessed later that the whole ghostwriter thing was a mess. They had never really used ghostwriters before, and didn't really know how, so they treated them pretty badly....they were also working on the Everworlds books, had young kids, and I believe Applegate and Grant were taking care of her mother, who had dementia. Plus the whole Scholastic deadlines were there. So they'd write a detailed outline and plot summary, send it to the ghostwriter, get it back, usually do extensive edits and rewrites, (in the case of one book, I think they were so unhappy, they rewrote it from scratch) and send it to Scholastic. So it wasn't a fun experience for anyone
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Sep 27, 2022 00:03
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The wikipedia page has a list of who wrote each book here. I probably couldn't have picked them out if they weren't listed, but if you look back now there are definitely some strong hitters: Ellen Geroux wrote the Tobias books and the Jake's Nightmare one, as well as the Civil War book; Melinda Metz wrote the Cassie is a Yeerk and Cassie is an Aldrea books. Then there are also some not-so-successful authors: Laura Battyanyi-Weiss wrote Rachel turns into a squid, Tom tries to murk his father with a Nazi knife, and a buffalo turns into Cassie, none of which really had anything to do with their characters.mind the walrus posted:I'm not versed enough on who actually wrote each ghostbook, but I also can't help but imagine you've got a lot of lesser-experienced (and frankly poorer) writers essentially working the trenches with no real skin in the long-term success of the series or deep investment in the lore beyond general "oh that's cool" when discovering it for the assignment. Their boss hands them an outline. They're going to focus on delivering the product asked for, not trying to prove their bonafides in an industry where doing so is easily punished by simply not choosing to hire them anymore. Of course, Amy Garvey who wrote The One Where the Gang Almost Become Vegetarians (which I liked!) did not get another assignment.
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Sep 27, 2022 00:05
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Epicurius posted:Applegate and Grant confessed later that the whole ghostwriter thing was a mess. They had never really used ghostwriters before, and didn't really know how, so they treated them pretty badly....they were also working on the Everworlds books, had young kids, and I believe Applegate and Grant were taking care of her mother, who had dementia. Plus the whole Scholastic deadlines were there. Yeah, they're super upfront about it now. They broke in as ghostwriters, so they thought managing ghostwriters would be easy for them, and it absolutely wasn't. They encouraged the writers to get wild but were bad at writing outlines that made sense to the ghostwriters and bad at editing, so ended up doing more cutting up and rewriting than they'd planned (which might be where the lack of B- and C-plots we were discussing came from). Plus, yeah, their daughter was born prematurely during the series run, so Applegate went through a pregnancy, an early birth, and a bunch of hospital time trying to write/edit/rewrite/etc.
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Sep 27, 2022 02:13
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Yeah the more I learn about what they dealt with during production, the more respect I have for them. Goddamn that's a lot. Makes sense too.
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Sep 27, 2022 03:52
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mind the walrus posted:They're going to focus on delivering the product asked for, not trying to prove their bonafides in an industry where doing so is easily punished by simply not choosing to hire them anymore. Also, IIRC some of the ghostwriters are just like, their babysitter, or their neighbor. I get the feeling for a while there they were so overwhelmed they were just offering writing jobs to anyone who was interested in banging out a story in a month or so based on a prewritten outline.
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Sep 27, 2022 06:24
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