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dex_sda posted:lol if this analysis is even close to accurate then he's cheating 100%. I'm really sceptical of this one since it's claiming that Hans is cheating every move, or at least a large proportion. Whenever someone talks about how they would actually cheat it would only be for one or two important moves in a game, not something they would do the whole time.
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Sep 26, 2022 22:20
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neaden posted:I'm really sceptical of this one since it's claiming that Hans is cheating every move, or at least a large proportion. Whenever someone talks about how they would actually cheat it would only be for one or two important moves in a game, not something they would do the whole time. Well at the very least the existing anti cheating protections are supposed to catch people playing perfectly every move.. When that Danny Regan was asked about this in his interview (can your cheating analysis catch people who only use the engine to help with a couple of moves a game?) his answer was that his algorithm can identify people trying to be tricky and avoid blatantly obvious indications that they are cheating, but in his experience as it turns out cheaters are more apt to do the dumb cheating where they just make the best computer move every time. I mean it could go either way with cheaters, my question is more how come these 10 perfect games in major tournaments weren't noticed before this point in time?
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Sep 26, 2022 22:30
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How much difference is there between suggested moves by different chess engines for master-level games, and is that another point that could be analyzed? Let's say a suspect player's moves always seem to agree with Stockfish even when Fritz suggests something else. That'd be significant. (Or are there not enough such differences to make this statistically meaningful?)
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Sep 26, 2022 22:34
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Too little too late. Carlsen should have not played the first game. Or said something at the time. Instead he was happy to sit back and let everything implode based in rumour and speculation. And then agree to play Hans again and withdraw just made it worse. E. Basically this https://twitter.com/ben_finegold/status/1574506362658181120?t=H6n8M35W3r5eUD-eI3T1jw&s=19
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Sep 26, 2022 22:40
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neaden posted:I'm really sceptical of this one since it's claiming that Hans is cheating every move, or at least a large proportion. Whenever someone talks about how they would actually cheat it would only be for one or two important moves in a game, not something they would do the whole time. That isn't what they're saying.. They are saying that Hans played 100% top engine moves in 10 games. If you compare to a "normal" GM with the same methed that would mean he was cheating on the most difficult 20-30% of moves in a selection of tournaments. For a 30 move game that translates into like 6 moves with assistance. If you consider the 90% games that would be like getting assistance on 2-3 moves total the whole game.
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Sep 26, 2022 22:40
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V for Vegas posted:Too little too late. Carlsen should have not played the first game. Or said something at the time. Instead he was happy to sit back and let everything implode based in rumour and speculation. And then agree to play Hans again and withdraw just made it worse. I mean.. it's hard to imagine how Magnus could have drawn more attention to the matter though lol.. from that perspective his approach was extremely successful. Quietly withdrawing from the Sinquefield cup the week before probably wouldn't have had the same effect.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:01
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Who says it would have to be quiet? He could have withdrawn and said he's not willing to play Hans. It's not like he has more proof now than he did then.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:05
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neaden posted:I'm really sceptical of this one since it's claiming that Hans is cheating every move, or at least a large proportion. Whenever someone talks about how they would actually cheat it would only be for one or two important moves in a game, not something they would do the whole time. Maxim Dlugy notably said a version of this after Borislav Ivanov was caught cheating: quote:If I had this gadget I would be killing people left and right, and nobody would know. This is the real danger, because if a 2600 player has this thing, he knows exactly how to behave, he knows exactly when to think, and he doesn’t to use it more than four times during a game. That’s plenty to destroy anyone. At the critical junction you switch it on and find out which way do I go: oh, this little nuance I didn’t see, okay, fine, boom, goodbye! That’s it. But when he got banned from chess.com it was after a string of clumsy Stockfish blitz games. Basically the chess version of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oECsGvS9gc4
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Sep 26, 2022 23:09
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Don't forget that Hans was announced as participating 6 days before the event due to Richard Rapport dropping out.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:10
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I want to make a cast iron forearm and fist and launch it at Ben Finegold's face with a harpoon gun.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:10
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Finegold is a butthurt midlife crisis dude who's angry he never made it to the top.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:13
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The most divorced GM of all time
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Sep 26, 2022 23:15
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Ben Finegold also plays bridge, a superior game to the topic of this thread, so he is always right
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Sep 26, 2022 23:18
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One of the most surprising things in chess is that Ben Finegold is not from New York.
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Sep 26, 2022 23:21
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poonchasta posted:I want to make a cast iron forearm and fist and launch it at Ben Finegold's face with a harpoon gun. Detroit's got your back 
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Sep 26, 2022 23:23
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I'm enjoying the takes on chess drama from non-chess playing twitch streamers. https://clips.twitch.tv/FairSpotlessCurlewYouWHY-pmfPDYgNsBPf3dwo
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Sep 27, 2022 00:50
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Starsfan posted:I mean that move accuracy thing isn't the be all and end all, like if a top level GM was playing one of us (and trying their hardest) their move accuracy would likely approach or be at 100% At my basically barely-four-digit-ELO blitz level I've had a few extremely high percentage games. They tend to go along the lines of "oh his queen just wandered into traffic, I guess capture it?" and sure enough Stockfish also thinks it's a good idea to capture queens that have wandered into traffic.
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Sep 27, 2022 01:20
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100% top engine move is different to high accuracy though. There's many situations where you've got lots of good moves to choose from and any of them will give you a high accuracy score, but only one of them is top engine move because it's +0.59 instead of +0.58, and playing a game where you consistently pick that one is incredibly rare.
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Sep 27, 2022 02:17
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This drama is so hilarious. Today I explained the buttplug cheating theory to a coworker.
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Sep 27, 2022 02:26
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i feel more sympathetic towards magnus after reading this. i still think he shouldn't have ragequit the tournament, but i have no problem with him mashing the resign button in that online game. i hope he gets the anti-cheating measures he wants! where can i see which games these were? i would like to take a look with my engine. EDIT: vvvv thanks!  vvvv
Helianthus Annuus fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 03:03
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Helianthus Annuus posted:where can i see which games these were? i would like to take a look with my engine. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uP7APVqIhRLHptiQuu1nNpRMuEs2Zv4TRUYYLtqEMTU/edit#gid=0 Note that the checking is done with Chessbase's new "Let's Check" feature. It's a distributed computing sort of platform that mixes many engine evaluations into one. https://en.chessbase.com/post/analyzing-games-with-i-let-s-check-i-  Here is an example output where you can see in a Carlsen v. Naka game the engine/game correlation is 84% vs 46% (ouch). The service determines the % by checking each engine for the top move it would give, and then if your move was the top move from any of the engines, it counts as a top move. Salt Fish fucked around with this message at 03:21 on Sep 27, 2022 |
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Sep 27, 2022 03:14
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If anyone is interested Cristian Chirila and Fabiano Caruana review a few of the suspect games in this youtube video, starting at around the 1:05:00 mark of the podcast.. You get the highest level grandmaster's perspective on if some of these games are suspicious or not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3yrPzEv1e4
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Sep 27, 2022 03:38
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Hand Knit posted:Oh hell yes, I was worried this was dying down. Chess Thread: Rapid Posting Format
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Sep 27, 2022 04:51
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Just lmao forever if it turns out he consistently cheated and had the audacity to to pull that “chess speaks for itself.” response. lol
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Sep 27, 2022 05:34
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Starsfan posted:If anyone is interested Cristian Chirila and Fabiano Caruana review a few of the suspect games in this youtube video, starting at around the 1:05:00 mark of the podcast.. You get the highest level grandmaster's perspective on if some of these games are suspicious or not. verdict: there were a couple of non obvious moves that hans made with suspiciously low time usage, but no individual moves were anything too weird, but it is kinda weird according to fabi to play entire games without making any mistakes to this level. fabi doesn't know if you cherrypick some games from any other top player could you make the same argument. he wouldnt be too surprised either way
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Sep 27, 2022 05:35
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lmao all of these analyses read like the start of a phoenix wright case. "well he had the smoking gun, that he owns, in his hand, victim's blood on his coat, the monogrammed novelty bullets on the scene were the same type as the boxes he had in his home, but who's to say if he did it or not"
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Sep 27, 2022 05:51
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I mean, you have to confirm that your analysis method doesn't just declare everyone a cheater. That's just basic responsibility, not hand-wringing.
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Sep 27, 2022 05:52
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nrook posted:Ben Finegold also plays bridge, a superior game to the topic of this thread, so he is always right Bridge is an incredible game. We played poker in high school until we quickly realized that some folks are really bad at it and incapable of realizing it so after taking a bunch of their money and feelign increasingly awkward about it we changed games. The depth of it is, well, like chess, but with teammates. Hand Knit posted:One of the most surprising things in chess is that Ben Finegold is not from New York. poonchasta posted:I want to make a cast iron forearm and fist and launch it at Ben Finegold's face with a harpoon gun. ilmucche posted:Detroit's got your back https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZq3i94mSsQ
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Sep 27, 2022 05:53
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Salt Fish posted:The service determines the % by checking each engine for the top move it would give, and then if your move was the top move from any of the engines, it counts as a top move. This isn't quite right. Let's Check is a community analysis / best move database that is part of ChessBase. Anyone can contribute engine analysis by opening a chess engine on a position and opening Let's Check. If it is a position it knows, you see what analysis it knows as uploaded by users. This will usually be different engines at different depths In fact, that's the point, I could go right now to one of the games in question and use my correspondence setup to go to higher depth than the currently shown top three lines, and that would take the place of one of the ones that were shown. So then there is this Let's Check Analysis tool. By default if all the moves are already in the database, it can very quickly just pull the engine analysis for each move from Let's Check and do the compare. If there are positions that aren't present in Let's Check, whatever engine you are running, and only that engine will be the source for the comparison. Of course all these games in question are already present. This is all important because a bunch of people were saying the woman who made the video on this tool had cherrypicked what engines were used for each move. But this is to misunderstand that she wasn't actually picking engines at all, she was just pulling what was in the Let's Check database, which itself may have random engines.
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Sep 27, 2022 06:26
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This method just seems like a roundabout way of just checking the distribution of centipawn loss. Perhaps it might be better if we just measured that directly for a large cohort of players and then looked for players whose distribution of moves were substantially off from their peer group. Also you kind of need to adjust for the complexity of the position somehow for any of this to work, since it's really easy to get high accuracy against a weak opponent. Engine accuracy at low vs high depth, plus an adjustment for book moves seems like a good place to start there.
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Sep 27, 2022 06:45
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former glory posted:Just lmao forever if it turns out he consistently cheated and had the audacity to to pull that “chess speaks for itself.” response. I was hesitant to bring up this comparison, since I've been trying to be fair to both parties here, but think about Lance Armstrong's indignant responses to cheating accusations before he was exposed to be a massive massive cheater. It's difficult to determine a legitimately insulted party and someone co-opting that language to attempt to cloak their bad behavior, especially before the evidence is known.
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Sep 27, 2022 11:22
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https://twitter.com/IglesiasYosha/status/1574308784566067201?t=uc0qD6T7cSD2dWD0vLeW3g&s=19 As it turns out, chess players are bad at statistics. Who knew?
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Sep 27, 2022 12:20
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Ben Fiengold is having such a massive meltdown about magnus's post I can only assume he was on it.
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Sep 27, 2022 14:04
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archduke.iago posted:https://twitter.com/IglesiasYosha/status/1574308784566067201?t=uc0qD6T7cSD2dWD0vLeW3g&s=19 She is talking about 1 calculation at the end of the video she made, not the entire concept of checking games. She also didn't make the spreadsheet or collect the Let's Check data.
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Sep 27, 2022 15:59
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i'm inclined to trust magnus here, just because it would be so, so stupid for him to do this without being sure. no proof needed lol
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Sep 27, 2022 18:22
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how come sometimes hans sounds like english is his second language, and sometimes he sounds like he grew up in california (like he did)?
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Sep 27, 2022 18:29
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Charles Ingalls posted:how come sometimes hans sounds like english is his second language, and sometimes he sounds like he grew up in california (like he did)? Yeah he started faking an accent a few years ago the guy's a massive goon.
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Sep 27, 2022 18:47
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Charles Ingalls posted:how come sometimes hans sounds like english is his second language, and sometimes he sounds like he grew up in california (like he did)? One of his parents is Dutch, and he lived in the Netherlands for three years as a child. His accent seems to vary with the accents of people around him
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Sep 27, 2022 18:51
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Hikaru played my clip on his stream today so I'm basically famous now sorry everyone. edit: https://twitter.com/ty_johannes/status/1574780445744668673 Salt Fish fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Sep 28, 2022 |
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Sep 28, 2022 00:23
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Without more information that tweet is worthless. How many games did they both play in that time period, what was the opponents strength and the rating gain by each player in the same time period. Composting their performance in specific tournaments would be a lot more sensible metric song with things like average centipawn loss.
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Sep 28, 2022 01:08
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