|
I don’t see why they have to pretend that’s not a valid reason? It seems like a perfectly valid reason. Definitely no less valid then the people who pretend Vicky 2 killed their dog
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:11
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:30 |
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:I don’t see why they have to pretend that’s not a valid reason? It seems like a perfectly valid reason. Definitely no less valid then the people who pretend Vicky 2 killed their dog They don't. And yet they do. That's why it's funny.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:13
|
|
|
Fray posted:They don't. And yet they do. That's why it's funny. basically this. they don't want to come out and say "but i won't be able to beat the ai to a bloody pulp by taking advantage of the bad ai??? new war system is bad!" because then they may have to confront how dumb they sound
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:16
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah I get you have to make it abstract for a video game, but if that abstraction is really boring and uninteresting what’s the point. I don’t particularly care how much any of the posters here hate the old war system so that means nothing to me Where did I mention abstractions? Where did you mention abstraction? Is moving armies around the map and having them fight multi-day battles itself by rolling dice and comparing stats not also an abstraction, which is not only boring and uninteresting, is nominally not related to the core mechanics of the game - politics, population management and economics. Which the new system is. It might break occasionally, it might be confusing at first and it may need patching, but it’s a drat sight better than counter shuffling across a whole globe, baiting the lovely AI into awful fights, devoting your focus to a game of whack-a-mole. If you want that go play literally any other Paradox game.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:25
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:please tell me there’s a way to restore the western reserve to its rightful owners
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:25
|
|
|
hot cocoa on the couch posted:basically this. they don't want to come out and say "but i won't be able to beat the ai to a bloody pulp by taking advantage of the bad ai??? new war system is bad!" because then they may have to confront how dumb they sound I mean, it's not even that they would sound dumb, if someone just said this I wouldn't try to make them feel bad about it. People like what they like. But there's a social dynamic around people not wanting to do that which leads them to make weird posts instead .
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:27
|
|
|
I actually disagree wholeheartedly about the combat mechanics. Honestly, it's kind of the way I already try to play HOI4, which is Paradox's most wargame-like game, which is always why I get my rear end handed to me once war gets declared. What I do in that game is try to build up all my industry and logistics and infrastructure, and take decisions and spend political power in order to support my generals, to whom I leave the business of fronts. It sounds like V3 is going to let me do just that, and not punish me for not caring whether Division of Conscripts A is attacking into Province B from Direction C.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:36
|
|
|
Likewise a lot of the support for the new war system comes from people who think the idea of 'cheesing the AI' is, like, a moral wrong and all games that you can do it in are incredibly awful (even though 'tricking your opponent into fighting you in conditions favorable to you' is like a good half of warfare). I'm not too attached to micromanaging stacks but I do think the new system will have trouble balancing between pissing the player off when they lose a war they should have won due to AI/RNG or being so predetermined the game might as well auto declare victory immediately.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:39
|
|
|
CharlestheHammer posted:Yeah I get you have to make it abstract for a video game, but if that abstraction is really boring and uninteresting what’s the point. I don’t particularly care how much any of the posters here hate the old war system so that means nothing to me If the most important thing for you to have fun with a game is to move troops around on the map in a highly engaging way then Victoria 3 genuinely isn't targeted to you. There's lots of games that are though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:40
|
|
|
it's not morally wrong it's just really unthematic. it's not like a tactical/strategic game where you skillfully deceive your enemy into fighting on unfavourable ground and surprising them, it's literally just gaming the move lock timers and poo poo. it's tedious and detracts from the game and if that's a hjighlight of the game for you, well, sorry, i pity you
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:41
|
|
|
Im just here for the graphs. How many graphs do I get in this new military system? If its not Pie AND Bar charts Im loving out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:they let me write a dev diary about ohio I appreciate that its tag is OSU. Although the tag really should be THEOSU
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:43
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Likewise a lot of the support for the new war system comes from people who think the idea of 'cheesing the AI' is, like, a moral wrong and all games that you can do it in are incredibly awful (even though 'tricking your opponent into fighting you in conditions favorable to you' is like a good half of warfare). it’s not morally wrong it is just boring and unengaging. zzz
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:49
|
|
|
Lady Radia posted:it’s not morally wrong it is just boring and unengaging. zzz Yes that is a complaint that I understand and agree with. The 'moral wrong' stuff seemed to be coming out of reddit and the official forums.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:52
|
|
|
Cantorsdust posted:I appreciate that its tag is OSU. Although the tag really should be THEOSU THE Ohio Soviet Union
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 19:56
|
|
|
SlothBear posted:Is there a list of playable tags anywhere? Ofaloaf posted:they let me write a dev diary about ohio
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 20:38
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:they let me write a dev diary about ohio And hell, I'm glad.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 20:44
|
|
|
Hellioning posted:Likewise a lot of the support for the new war system comes from people who think the idea of 'cheesing the AI' is, like, a moral wrong and all games that you can do it in are incredibly awful (even though 'tricking your opponent into fighting you in conditions favorable to you' is like a good half of warfare). I think there's a difference between outwitting another human and "outwitting" an AI that's incapable of handling the same rote series of actions in every campaign. It's like feeling a sense of accomplishment from beating up on a chess AI that can't defend against the four-move checkmate.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:02
|
|
|
SnoochtotheNooch posted:No. I'm saying the old system had flaws that made micromanaging large empires unfun. However, especially when powers were evenly matched, there was a possibility for one side to upset the other even after a string of wins. We haven't seen a lot of examples, but you might want to check out the second war with the Ottomans in the Egypt stream to assuage some of your concerns. On paper the two standing armies were almost identical in size and tech, but the Egyptians had far fewer conscripts they could fall back on so they were worried about a protracted war. Right at the stat the made the decision to order all of their generals to advance immediately, holding nothing back for defense. After a few battles they had lost their provinces in the Anatolia region, which were the Ottoman war-goal, but they had managed to make a breakthrough east all the way to the border of Iran. Once the overland supply lines were cut the Ottoman armies in Iraq, composed of troops from Thrace, far from home, were demoralized and poorly supplied. Egypt was quickly able to occupy all of Iraq. Meanwhile the front in the hilly eastern Anatolian region had stabilized and pushing was going to be difficult. Egypt wasn't in a position to enforce their demands, but the Ottomans had been beaten badly enough that they would give up and accept a white peace, which was a victory for the Egyptians who just didn't want to lose territory to the bigger Ottomans. Does that not contain everything you want? Turnabouts, strategic decisions, terrain considerations, a dynamic changing situation? The great thing is that it also has what I want out of a system too. The player just had to decide they wanted to go all out on that front and the rest was something of a dice roll, but also the product of geography. In Victoria 2 you could do the same thing, decide to be incredibly aggressive because you can't afford a prolonged war, and then you would have to devote all your attention to a tedious clicking minigame for the whole war, rendering the outcome of a war between peers a mere test of mouse clicking skill between you and your opponent. I know some of your concern is strategic depth in multiplayer so I'll also freely add to this conversation- I personally have terrible mouse clicking skills! My hands don't work good! My strong hope for the new war system is 100% affected by my personal resentment at the idea that I'm just never going to be competitive in multiplayer due to a lack of reflexes. You say a good play can give one player an opportunity to turn around a conflict? Honestly, it is only ever going to be my opponent who benefits from that. That sucks for me! You see strategic options, I see a perpetual handicap for me personally. It's always been frustrating that games that are otherwise about more strategic and diplomatic concerns come down to a reflex-based minigame to decide the most crucial conflicts. A game that uses weighted dice rolls to decide wars instead (which is not really what the new system is) would personally be a huge improvement in terms of accessibility. I'm really glad Victoria 3 is going to be the first Paradox game that's actually fully accessible to someone with my (lack of) abilities. I've only ever played Paradox games in multiplayer cooperatively because I just cannot deal with a real-time war. In removing the "skill" from warfare, Victoria 3 opens up multiplayer to people like me. I'm actually really excited about it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:06
|
|
|
Devs making Victoria 3 Alki already. Ohio Sultanate rises again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:13
|
|
|
The real maneuvering and trickery of Vicky 3 will hopefully be doing some economic fuckery to cripple your rivals, targeting the supply lines of their industries or just straight out-competing them. And then starting a diplomatic play while their economy is in shambles.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:28
|
|
|
AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:imagine me posting a map of the world here. You can play anyone last I heard. Like... literally any polity that is on the map can be played. Aren’t there the unorganized states or w/e that aren’t playable?
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:31
|
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:The real maneuvering and trickery of Vicky 3 will hopefully be doing some economic fuckery to cripple your rivals, targeting the supply lines of their industries or just straight out-competing them. And then starting a diplomatic play while their economy is in shambles. You have used... MONEY to bring down a great house! 
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 21:48
|
|
|
yeti friend posted:Aren’t there the unorganized states or w/e that aren’t playable? Yeah, decentralized states. Those are not playable.
|
|
#
?
Sep 29, 2022 22:26
|
|
|
"VostokProgram" posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 00:37
|
|
|
Minenfeld! posted:Why do complaints about the combat system always come down to "I won't be able to use my micro skills to pull off sick tactical victories like when the nazis won ww2"? it's either that or they are mad they can't abuse the terrible AI edit: lmao i should read the next page before posting
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 00:56
|
|
|
There's a certain element of skill in Multiplayer where instead of managing your stacks you're trying to herd cats that comprise your human allies, of all varying levels of skill.  In all seriousness though this massively shifts the balance of power in Multiplayer towards coalitions. Previously, especially in EU4, a big alliance was its own impediment to success against a sufficiently powerful player who had good interior lines of communication; historically accurate yes; but very bad for long term game health. Because unlike in real life, that player can just do what napoleon couldn't and just break that coalition on its knees given enough time to take bites out of them.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 01:21
|
|
|
that makes me think how they missed an opportunity not adding a co-op to v2 multiplayer imagine running modernized china's economy while a mp microfreak handles the wars for you Goast fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Sep 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 01:42
|
|
|
It would be cool to have multiplayer where you don't have to throttle down to speed 1 every time somebody gets in a war. I think combat is bad in almost all strategy games because you're usually trying to achieve strategic superiority which trivializes the tactical combat and makes it tedious. Unless you learn to cheese the combat and trivialize the strategy layer. Either way, one side of the game inevitably renders the other side moot.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 02:07
|
|
|
Goast posted:that makes me think how they missed an opportunity not adding a co-op to v2 multiplayer "Modernized China's economy" and "microfreak" in V2 sounds like more or less the same thing to me. Especially under Communism. Admittedly a different kind of micro but still.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 02:14
|
|
|
Goast posted:that makes me think how they missed an opportunity not adding a co-op to v2 multiplayer There is co-op in v2 multiplayer.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 02:47
|
|
|
hot cocoa on the couch posted:basically this. they don't want to come out and say "but i won't be able to beat the ai to a bloody pulp by taking advantage of the bad ai??? new war system is bad!" because then they may have to confront how dumb they sound It doesn't sound dumb though? Beating up on AIs is often fun
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 07:03
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:It doesn't sound dumb though? Beating up on AIs is often fun
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 07:24
|
|
|
Not having little soldier men to click around will lead to fewer people moan about NATO counters so that’s a win
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 07:53
|
|
|
I wonder how constitutional monarchy will effect places like Australia that have a monarch but have never had an aristocracy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 09:00
|
|
A Buttery Pastry posted:Yeah, I think you have to rewrite it as "I want to prove how brilliant I am by beating up an AI that could be beaten by a toddler". Which is obviously not the motivation for everyone who wants more war micro, but definitely a likely reason for the ones who can't admit they just like beating up a defenseless AI. While I agree that a lot of the people engaged enough to post silly things on the forums are probably good enough at the game that the description fits, there is also a good share of the PDX games playerbase that is only able to fullfil it's power fantasy of painting the map in their favorite color because of the bad war AI. I wonder how these people will react to the new war system, which could potentially lead to a more frustrating experience for them. Don't get me wrong, I think it's the perfect system for Victoria4 and would love them to have something similiar in HOI4/5, where you are forced to stay in the role of "spirit of the nation" instead of taking personal command of division sized forces.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 09:48
|
|
|
Enjoy posted:It doesn't sound dumb though? Beating up on AIs is often fun Not every game has to be that, though. It's reasonable for them to want to put the focus of this game elsewhere. I'm glad they've got the guts to do something other than "order army mans around: the game" for the thousandth time.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 09:53
|
|
|
Gort posted:Not every game has to be that, though. It's reasonable for them to want to put the focus of this game elsewhere. So long as we are all recognising it's a difference in preference and not one side just being enraged dumb neo-Nazis!
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 10:02
|
|
|
Watching the latest stream dispelled the last of my concerns about the new war system in terms of concept / implementation, I do think that some kind of front splitting and/or adding strategic objectives will be added at some point but the system looks to be working great at the moment. Your job is to make an army which can be effective in war, and make the absolute broadest decisions about how the war is going to be fought (where troops are assigned and if they are defensive or offensive), and that's it. During the actual war keeping the economy steady and the populace happy is still the most important thing, and I think that's correct.
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 10:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 09:30 |
|
|
chadbear posted:Not having little soldier men to click around will lead to fewer people moan about NATO counters so that’s a win Sorry, I don’t frequent the Paradox forums much - are there actually people who wanted NATO counters in Victoria 2?
|
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2022 10:40
|
|