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'Just draw the out' doesn't really work for Mine anymore now that people are protecting it with Beat Cop. Now you have to draw the out TWICE. Card needs to go.
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Oct 1, 2022 01:24
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| # ? Jun 5, 2024 15:22 |
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Just draw Cosmic Cyclone, it's not that hard! /s
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Oct 1, 2022 02:06
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Charles Bukowski posted:I'd like each player to get a few turns to try and make their decks do their thing and end in a time which is enjoyable for all parties involved. I am an idealist and have no real ideas on how to achieve any of this. It's just what I'd like. Then your problem isn't with Mystic Mine, it's with every other topping deck in the format. Mine gives you a very large amount of turns! Vandar posted:'Just draw the out' doesn't really work for Mine anymore now that people are protecting it with Beat Cop. Now you have to draw the out TWICE. A: Boo hoo, you need to draw TWO outs. When I'm facing Swordsoul I need to draw four in one turn, and THEN deal with a 3k/4k beater that only gets stronger every time I try to kill it. B: You know, as I recall the problem with Mystic Mine Burn was that they'd circumvent Mine's own backfire/destruction mechanic by playing no monsters, thereby never having more monsters than their opponent. Sounds to me like Mine players actually became easier to deal with by playing Beat Cop.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:10
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If you're not maindecking Counter Cleaner are you even trying to win
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Oct 1, 2022 02:11
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girl dick energy posted:Just draw Cosmic Cyclone, it's not that hard! /s Great, you draw Cosmic Cyclone, and then lose because of TCG time rules.  Cleretic posted:Then your problem isn't with Mystic Mine, it's with every other topping deck in the format. Mine gives you a very large amount of turns! A: The difference is that Swordsouls actually have to build a board and you have a chance to stop it or slow it down with things like hand traps. Mine is one single card that shuts down half the game just by activating it. B: You summon the Beat Cop and then immediately tribute it for its effect so that you don't have any monsters, and thus now Mine is online.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:14
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Vandar posted:'Just draw the out' doesn't really work for Mine anymore now that people are protecting it with Beat Cop. Now you have to draw the out TWICE. Can't you just cosmic cyclone go through beatcop protection? just draw the out and pray they cant stop it.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:16
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Jehuti posted:Can't you just cosmic cyclone go through beatcop protection? just draw the out and pray they cant stop it. It can, and then you end up losing because of TCG time rules.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:19
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Vandar posted:It can, and then you end up losing because of TCG time rules. Then play more outs, so you draw them more often. I don't see how this is difficult for people. As a bonus, the outs tend to also work on other decks as well! You can chew up some of the Adventure engine with some backrow removal.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:25
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Because there's not that many decks in the current meta that require backrow removal in the form of a spell or trap so running that many outs just for one card is quite frankly ridiculous. It also doesn't change the fact that, y'know...Irony Be My Shield posted:Mystic Mine is a completely unreasonable card since it ^This all still applies.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:32
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Vandar posted:It can, and then you end up losing because of TCG time rules. I would simply swing for game since they lost mine protection, i have 8 cards, and have less monsters then me
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Oct 1, 2022 02:36
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Jehuti posted:I would simply swing for game since they lost mine protection, i have 8 cards, and have less monsters then me By the time you've drawn through your deck to get to the Cosmic and you activate it, time gets called, and you don't get to attack. RIP.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:41
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S/T based 'Out' was looked down upon because doing it through monster card effect are much more superior and efficient in the format. Also no one in meta plays traps anymore, so why pack Out and risk bricking
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Oct 1, 2022 02:54
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Vandar posted:By the time you've drawn through your deck to get to the Cosmic and you activate it, time gets called, and you don't get to attack. RIP. 1. Have more of whatever your choice of non-monster backrow removal is, so you draw it more often. poo poo, steal from Mine itself and play Anti-Spell Fragrance to stop them getting a new Mine on the board. 2. Bean them with literally anything. Mine plays total poo poo for monsters, they aren't gonna beat over you. You don't need to combo together a board, you just neet to sucker-punch some teeth out. If Mine is the most prevalent opponent, then you build to counter Mine. If you really wanna say 'Mine outs have literally no purpose against any other deck ever', then forfeit game one and then side in a bunch of counters. I know you're not playing Master Duel, so you're playing best of three: win the other two.
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Oct 1, 2022 02:55
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Mine isn't the most prevalent opponent is the problem. Because most people don't want to play Mine. However, the person who does play Mine is playing a deck that is purely designed for misery simulation. There's no version of a mine deck that isn't awful to play against. Just "draw" the out isn't a good answer to a card that turns games into slogs worse than any other floodgate ever printed. Furthermore, if the mine deck is doing beatcop then the only outs that "work" are things other than destruction, which makes it even longer to get the "out". Plus they'll be playing the metaverse trap anyway.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:02
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Cleretic posted:If you really wanna say 'Mine outs have literally no purpose against any other deck ever', then forfeit game one and then side in a bunch of counters. I know you're not playing Master Duel, so you're playing best of three: win the other two.  Immediately forfeit to save times, swap in all the Outs from side decks, win two.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:02
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Don't forget the "pray you don't brick because you no longer have any margin for error after forfeiting game 1" in between.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:04
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I hope they don't play burn when I unbrick myself by drawing 30 times.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:10
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Vandar posted:'Just draw the out' doesn't really work for Mine anymore now that people are protecting it with Beat Cop. Now you have to draw the out TWICE. ZenMasterBullshit posted:Bring back running 6 pieces of one off s/t removal.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:17
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Nyaa posted:I hope they don't play burn when I unbrick myself by drawing 30 times. If the complaint is that they take ages to win by mill, you should hope they play burn.
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Oct 1, 2022 03:18
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No, it's just... I never really figure out the right way to deal with Stall Burn. 
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Oct 1, 2022 03:24
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Lord_Magmar posted:However, the person who does play Mine is playing a deck that is purely designed for misery simulation. I mean, yes, but only after having so many Dragonmaids get Ash Blossomed that I was ready to make everyone else suffer. 
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Oct 1, 2022 03:49
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Did people run s/t backrow removal during a format(s) where eldlich was more popular?
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Oct 1, 2022 04:28
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23FEdp71LTk Just let me draw
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Oct 1, 2022 06:30
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https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1561639724158050304?s=20&t=YS7eQ8JcQZjODQzv6e0vng The absolutely riveting gameplay of Mystic Mine.
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Oct 1, 2022 07:04
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Vandar posted:https://twitter.com/GavinVerhey/status/1561639724158050304?s=20&t=YS7eQ8JcQZjODQzv6e0vng quote:Principal Magic Designer at Wizards of the Coast. Former professional player. The main reason Mine is just The Worst isn't because it's "Anti-Meta" but because it is Anti-Yugioh. If they want to print out searchable S/T removal printed on S/T for archetypes go right ahead, but you have to make it tutorable without monster effects and on top of that the tutor effect will also need to tutor monsters becoming even more toolbox-y. But they haven't have no intention to, and are not designing around Mine. "Just play around Mine." So decks become Mine Decks and Anti-Mine decks, it doesn't take someone much to realize that is a card warping the game around itself. Yugioh as a game is very focused on monster effects, tutoring cards, and stringing together those two things. You can argue you don't like that design and don't think the game SHOULD be like that. But that's a different discussion all together. What you think Yugioh SHOULD be isn't what Yugioh IS, and what it is, is not a game that supports the existence of Mystic Mine. Mystic Mine should be banned for the exact same reason Maxx "C" is banned in the TCG, because it warps everything around itself. Maxx "C" when legal, determines that X slots in your deck are devoted to anti-Maxx "C", 3 Ash blossom for being the most effective Maxx "C" counter, 1 Called By the gave, being the most effective counter to both, and 3 of your own Maxx "C" because you'd have to be a loving moron, just an absolute complete dipshit idiot to NOT run Maxx "C" at 3. Throw in any number of Crossout Designator based on how much you want to be able to respond and oh look 7-10 deck slots, eaten up just by "The Maxx "C" package. Of course the bigger issue is that there are MORE outs to Maxx "C than there are to Mine. "Just Draw The Out Bro." Okay so they have 3 Mystic Mine at most you can have 3 Cosmic Cyclone, ignoring how you can't guarantee having it in hand, if a SINGLE CC gets negated you lose, on the spot, you have no ability to remove future Mine's without more investment, creating the Beat Cop Loop. You need two removal spells to remove a Mystic Mine that's been Beat Copped, then you need to get through the Fogs the opponent has set, provided they aren't Bribe's or other negates for your removal spells (they are. That's all they're playing.) They have 3 mines, You need 2 non-removal negation for a Mine, so each copy of Mine requires 6 'MST' cards. To get through Beat Cops, then you need 3 Cosmic Cyclone as the Most Effective Tactic Available to remove Mines permanently. Then you have to content with Extra removal, and hoping they don't have a Metaverse, Demises of the Land or anything else that puts a field spell into the Field zone. So right now we're looking at 8 minimum for a shot, just a SHOT to beat Mine, and you don't want to be running these main deck, because they're flat loving dead against any other deck in contention. Which, there are two top decks, one that barely got hit, with two very different things to contend with. So your side deck has 7 slots left, at maximum, for anti-The rest of the meta. Mystic Mine is a problem, it warps the game around it, because it fundamentally goes against card design in a way that leads to unfun experiences. If you disagree, you are wrong.
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Oct 1, 2022 08:37
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Just play master duel instead of making a really long post about it imo
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Oct 1, 2022 08:39
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mandatory lesbian posted:Just play master duel instead of making a really long post about it imo I do. It has the same problem with Maxx "C" which I just covered in the above post. In fact it has worse problems because it's a client designed around Bo1 with a banlist refusing to hit many cards that specifically make Bo1 a terrible format.
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Oct 1, 2022 08:56
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well then i guess everybody has no choice but to play rush duels on their nintendo switch video game console
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Oct 1, 2022 08:57
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Everyone has no choice but to play Duelist of the Roses
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Oct 1, 2022 09:11
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Maxx C is also fine, you just have to react to it by cutting your combo as short as possible without loving yourself. Which, I will grant, is a difficult thing to learn and not exactly something you can just pick up from a deck guide or something. But it's definitely not a card that's as unfair as some of the louder complainers act like it is, you just have to exercise restraint. ...which those loud complainers are usually fairly bad at. Seriously, I was outright baffled when I actually started playing against the notorious, infamous Maxx C, and just... did fine, mostly. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Oct 1, 2022 |
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Oct 1, 2022 09:19
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Cleretic: This is fine.jpeg
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Oct 1, 2022 09:34
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Cleretic posted:Maxx C is also fine, you just have to react to it by cutting your combo as short as possible without loving yourself. Which, I will grant, is a difficult thing to learn and not exactly something you can just pick up from a deck guide or something. But it's definitely not a card that's as unfair as some of the louder complainers act like it is, you just have to exercise restraint. ...which those loud complainers are usually fairly bad at. The issue with Maxx C is if one person has it and the other does not the game is dead, because the person with it gets to stop the combo, the person without does not. Personally, I don't really mind Maxx C much myself. It's been at 3 in the OCG forever, but in a Bo1 format specifically. It is a bad card.
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Oct 1, 2022 09:44
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Cleretic posted:Maxx C is also fine, you just have to react to it by cutting your combo as short as possible without loving yourself. Which, I will grant, is a difficult thing to learn and not exactly something you can just pick up from a deck guide or something. But it's definitely not a card that's as unfair as some of the louder complainers act like it is, you just have to exercise restraint. ...which those loud complainers are usually fairly bad at. What you just said, and let's be clear is "Giving your opponent a minimum of Upstart Goblin which also ends your opponent's turn, is perfectly fine." And a single Special Summon past that is Pot of Greed, and that Pot of Greed is perfectly good and reasonable to be legal at 3. Onmi fucked around with this message at 09:54 on Oct 1, 2022 |
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Oct 1, 2022 09:49
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Just play synchro combo and deck them out
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Oct 1, 2022 09:50
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they really ought to just errata maxx c to say "you can't activate other cards or effects during the turn you activate this effect". that way when playing against it you won't have to worry about playing through every hand trap in your opponent's deck, and it dissuades players from activating it while they already have an established board. actual counterplay becomes possible as for mystic mine, I'd just put a time limit on it. have it sent to the gy during your second standby phase after it's activated. if mine players want to keep mine up, they should simply draw more mines
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Oct 1, 2022 10:02
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Lord_Magmar posted:The issue with Maxx C is if one person has it and the other does not the game is dead, because the person with it gets to stop the combo, the person without does not. See, I feel like this is a good point, but also, whenever I have complaints about a combo deck like Swordsoul I'm told that I should just stop their combo by drawing an out, most likely Ash Blossom. And I literally don't see the difference between a match decided by who drew Ash Blossom and a match decided by who drew Maxx C. (Save for the part where Ash Blossom also stops Maxx C, so one of those cards is clearly a bigger decider.) A lot of these issues are exacerbated in a best of one format, though, I can agree, because there the luck of the draw changes so much; if only one person draws the interaction staples in a Bo1, that's kind of it, but even a Bo3 format without side-decking would give both players a higher chance to not break bad. That said, I do think that both these cards could do with some erratas to shave off the extreme unfairs and that'd be decent, mostly because I don't think the core of either card is actually the problem part: Skeleton Mom posted:they really ought to just errata maxx c to say "you can't activate other cards or effects during the turn you activate this effect". that way when playing against it you won't have to worry about playing through every hand trap in your opponent's deck, and it dissuades players from activating it while they already have an established board. actual counterplay becomes possible This Maxx C change seems extreme, but it would also be quite okay to me. I would say that you could still curb it almost as well by just saying that you can't activate any other hand traps the turn they Maxx C, since I've always found the big prickle about the card is that you've got a high chance of drawing even more immediately available gas, but I wouldn't say no to 'if you use Maxx C you don't get your negates', which is what that means to most players anyway. That Mystic Mine errata could work. My angle has always been to give it Kaiser Coliseum rules where it just doesn't do anything or gets destroyed if you don't have a monster on the board; it not only stops the Mystic Mine decks where they just don't keep any monsters on the field in the first place, it also provides another angle to snuff it out, since apparently the one it has isn't enough. EDIT: Alternative, joke answer to Maxx C erratas: you can play any amount of them you want in your deck, but if you draw another Maxx C with the effect of your Maxx C, you discard your hand. Cleretic fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Oct 1, 2022 |
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Oct 1, 2022 10:31
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Cleretic posted:See, I feel like this is a good point, but also, whenever I have complaints about a combo deck like Swordsoul I'm told that I should just stop their combo by drawing an out, most likely Ash Blossom. And I literally don't see the difference between a match decided by who drew Ash Blossom and a match decided by who drew Maxx C. (Save for the part where Ash Blossom also stops Maxx C, so one of those cards is clearly a bigger decider.) Counterpoint. Swordsoul actually has very few chokepoints you can stop with Ash, and if they Maxx "C" you... well, do you find Swordsoul easier to beat when they have more cards and every play you make gives them more answers? Because typically I always found that Swordsoul's strength was in its ability to generate value with many starters. As for if Ash is the more impactful card? No. We can tell this because in past formats in the TCG Ash has fluctuated in use in dependence to the Meta, if the current Meta had no Maxx "C" you'd see Ash with variance because it's a bigger hit to Branded Despia (Hit the Fusion) than it is to Swordsoul (Which has ways to play through interruption) In fact, the fact that Ash Blossom is Interruption, not ending a turn, and doesn't even negate on-field monsters or destroy cards on activation, leaving you plenty of room for follow up plays, is pretty telling to the difference in power-levels here. I don't know what Deck you play, I don't exactly play the Meta myself, but I'm good enough at card evaluation and deck building to recognize that Maxx "C" demands 8 deck slots. 3 for Maxx "C" 3 for Ash Blossom 2 for Called by the Grave (Which trumps both.) Not only are these cards forced into the main deck (due to Bo1) and heavily hamper deckbuilding, but it's the true minimum required to remain competitive. 8 cards of your deck should not be required to match up to a single hand trap, which at minimum is "Upstart and end your opponents turn" and at worse is "You win the game because turns out drawing even 3 extra cards gives you enough starters and resources to just crush your opponent."
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Oct 1, 2022 10:47
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Regarding Ash, it's actually basically useless in the current format.
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Oct 1, 2022 10:54
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Syenite posted:Regarding Ash, it's actually basically useless in the current format. Yup, it sees 3-of in OCG Spright because, guess what, both decks have 3-of Maxx "C", but Tear doesn't bother running it because... lmao Tear.
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Oct 1, 2022 10:57
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I love drawing cards ,maxx c is good
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Oct 1, 2022 11:09
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