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Now that they're making a serious run at Werewolf, I'm even more curious to hear reports from people who've played: is V5's roll-vs-roll at-most-three-rounds combat... good? I actually like it a lot on paper, but in the first place I'd be a little worried that it can be extremely swingy, and there are also not-that-crazy edge cases that as far as I can tell the rules don't give you clear instructions for resolving. Like, if A and B attack C, and C attacks A, how many rolls get made and who's in danger of taking damage? If X uses Celerity 5 to attack Y, and Y attacks X normally, who's actually responsible for rolling what?
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Oct 3, 2022 17:52
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TheCenturion posted:We're not saying your character concept is based on a First Nations myth about a cannibal spirit, but man, I hope your character is never stuck somewhere with nothing to eat but people. Yeah, that's not super great. It still flies a bit to close to the cannibal spirit sun and also it would just be super irritating from a mechanical perspective. As a friend pointed out you either handwave or it or it becomes obnoxious maintenance.
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Oct 3, 2022 19:16
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I am a weirdo who thinks that 2e Lost pledges are not so much bad, but more poorly explained as well as drastically under-explained. Even taking it as given that they're sorely lacking, though, I would contend that 2e is still an upgrade in general just because it's better made, even despite it's particular new problems and the general unwieldiness of CoD that drags on all the games.Ferrinus posted:Now that they're making a serious run at Werewolf, I'm even more curious to hear reports from people who've played: is V5's roll-vs-roll at-most-three-rounds combat... good? When Hunter came out I gave it and Vampire a skim because I also think it's an intriguing idea, but couldn't remember anything about it since I'd read my friend's copy of V5 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something, but it seems…really lackluster. They didn't change the underlying White Wolf-y system, they just tell you to play out three traditional rounds of combat and then stop, because you probably know where it's going at that point. So why keep rolling? I would've liked something a little more thoughtful than just "like the old game, but just stop."
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Oct 3, 2022 19:32
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That Old Tree posted:When Hunter came out I gave it and Vampire a skim because I also think it's an intriguing idea, but couldn't remember anything about it since I'd read my friend's copy of V5 years ago. I wouldn't be surprised if I'm missing something, but it seems…really lackluster. They didn't change the underlying White Wolf-y system, they just tell you to play out three traditional rounds of combat and then stop, because you probably know where it's going at that point. So why keep rolling? Well, the big change that intrigues me is that there's no default "defense" value on your sheet as such because you and your enemy just roll to attack each other and either one gets hit or both gets hit depending on how the dice come up (I guess outside the rare case of both people scoring no successes). I like that a lot because it eliminates usually-annoying subsystems or chargen optimization problems (i.e. you probably don't want a Dex too much higher or lower than Wits in the nWoD) and makes it much more likely that the state of play following a round of combat is different from the state of play before rather than making it quite likely that both attackers whiffed or got parried or whatever and you're right back where you started. ...except that it seems like there are a lot of cases in which the defender in a V5 combat ends up having to generate a totally reactive Dex+Ath defense pool anyway so it's all a wash?
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Oct 3, 2022 19:37
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Ferrinus posted:Now that they're making a serious run at Werewolf, I'm even more curious to hear reports from people who've played: is V5's roll-vs-roll at-most-three-rounds combat... good? There's a fan-written combat primer that I use as reference in my games, though I don't know if it's a commonly accepted one in the greater playerbase: https://www.v5homebrew.com/wiki/Combat_Primer In my experience, the system is fine enough, but indeed pretty swingy, especially when Hunger comes into play. It feels like a weird mix of WoD games past but also the OSR? Not really sure how to clarify that but it is my gut feel. Also, W5 saying its a reworking from the ground up and not a continuation of previous editions, but also needing to explain in tie-in fiction why the Get aren't around anymore even though H5 proved that you can just say, "I don't know and I don't really care, that's not what this game is about" and be done with it once again makes me wish that this whole edition was just a hard oWoD setting reboot. It probably doesn’t matter either way since I assume this edition's bringing in tons of new people where it is very much not an issue, but it's funny that every line's had a clean break in some way except for Vampire.
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Oct 3, 2022 19:47
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Ferrinus posted:Now that they're making a serious run at Werewolf, I'm even more curious to hear reports from people who've played: is V5's roll-vs-roll at-most-three-rounds combat... good? It's pretty good. Way better than the utter dogshit that was oWoD combat with 3+ rolls per attack, smoother than CoD because there aren't 10+ combat styles involved that you might need to take into account and go look at the rules for. In practice it's very much an alpha strike sort of combat dynamic where you will often go hard at a single target because splitting your pool to fight multiple opponents is sorta not a great option as a PC unless you're fighting mortal mooks with flat Difficulty values vs them actually rolling. Powers shine a lot more in terms of fortitude often feeling beefy as you just take a pounding or Prowess just melting someone, but generally speaking it's pretty solid assuming you have a table that can visualize and handle abstraction and get into it with the narrative and isn't sitting there being pedantic about move distances or lamenting the lack of a strategic map. It does a good job of driving home that combat is a narrative tool that punctuates the story and not that this is a DBZ super fight where you're going to spend the entire session in this epic slugfest with some big bad after spending the last session telling each other how badly you'd kick each others' asses. Ferrinus posted:I actually like it a lot on paper, but in the first place I'd be a little worried that it can be extremely swingy, and there are also not-that-crazy edge cases that as far as I can tell the rules don't give you clear instructions for resolving. Like, if A and B attack C, and C attacks A, how many rolls get made and who's in danger of taking damage? If X uses Celerity 5 to attack Y, and Y attacks X normally, who's actually responsible for rolling what? https://www.v5homebrew.com/wiki/Combat_Primer This gives a great rundown. Despite it being on the homebrew wiki, none of it is homebrew and it's just a breakdown of combat for ease of use.
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Oct 3, 2022 20:00
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Well, that primer is as complicated as I feared it would be. My biggest disappointment is that the system can't seem to be as economical with actions/rolls as it promises, such that one character might end up making two or three different rolls (possibly with different constituent traits and stacking dicepool penalties, with the actual stakes for those rolls just being "nothing changes" (and who chooses the order? I might want to save my Athletics-1 to use against a strong attack and my Athletics-2 to use against a weak attack, but surely my enemies want the opposite) in the space of a given turn. Frankly, this seems worse than just letting each combatant make one roll against one other's static defense and then switching to the next round. Does anyone know how Celerity 5 works yet? The power that lets you make an attack so fast it can't be defended against? If you're using that power and I don't, and we both try to stab each other, and we both roll 3 successes, does that mean you hit me with 3 and I hit you with 1? Do you make a separate roll to defend against me?
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Oct 3, 2022 20:07
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joylessdivision posted:I believe the word on the Get is that they've fallen to the Wyrm like the Black Spiral Dancers did. Also I somehow totally missed that the Stargazers aren't on that list, huh. AH man that's harsh I always liked the Viking werewolves. I am guessing the whole tribe became Proud Boys, which yeah that is plausible. PantsOptional posted:I am absolutely all about untethering Tribes and ethnicities, hallelujah. This hands down a good thing. I know I am not making an original point but the racial politics of 90's WoD games is at best cringe and was often much much worse than cringe. side_burned fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Oct 3, 2022 |
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Oct 3, 2022 20:11
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Ferrinus posted:Does anyone know how Celerity 5 works yet? The power that lets you make an attack so fast it can't be defended against? If you're using that power and I don't, and we both try to stab each other, and we both roll 3 successes, does that mean you hit me with 3 and I hit you with 1? Do you make a separate roll to defend against me? It means they attack you at a flat Difficulty of one, you don't get a defensive roll. You attack them and they still get their defensive roll, which if they have Fleetness up and choose to use the once/turn bonus to a dodge, they would roll their Dex + Athletics + 5 from Celerity against your attack. If they already used that once/turn bonus, didn't have Fleetness up, or are using it for someone else's attack or whatever, they'd just roll Dex + Athletics to Dodge. Basically it parses the the contest out from being a contest, because the Celerity 5 no longer makes it a contest.
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Oct 3, 2022 22:32
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According to something I read the Get are not Wyrm-tainted but instead in the throws of some new vocabulary term and are a group of violent Gaian zealots. Yeah, I know. I guess 'more so.' Like Harano but angry, maybe?
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Oct 3, 2022 23:12
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Thinking about it I'm kind of surprised the Red Talons weren't the ones to go off but that's mainly due to Revised rehabbing the Get pretty well. All the tribes kind of had a way they could go off the deep end but the Red Talons seemed the most likely to do so and were the most fanatical and inflexible, to a point they were moving their tribe towards extinction. I wonder if the Get going off is left over from Swedracula because W5 seems like it's been in development, possible hell, forever. Paradox has definitely mismanaged things. Beyond the PR and management nightmare that was Swedracula, because it's been almost 4 years, about a third of the lifetime of the original World of Darkness, and there's just not much. You can't put that on Swedrac too because he was out within the year V5 was released. Yeah, he poisoned the well and they had to rewrite some of the books, but in that time they should have definitely recovered and be supporting all the original main splats. Original White Wolf had all the main splat lines out within that time and was on second editions for some. I know the industry works differently now but I'm just left wondering how this could happen.
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Oct 3, 2022 23:40
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Fuzz posted:It means they attack you at a flat Difficulty of one, you don't get a defensive roll. Okay but what if they have low Athletics but high Brawl or Melee? What if they were using a Blood Surge or other mechanic to make their attack pool even higher than usual? By default, being good at offense also entails being good at defense, at least in a direct confrontation... unless you're able to enter bullet time, at which point you either lose the ability to parry or have to separate your parry attempt from your attack attempt such that you can no longer apply certain bonuses to both simultaneously?
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Oct 3, 2022 23:41
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:Thinking about it I'm kind of surprised the Red Talons weren't the ones to go off but that's mainly due to Revised rehabbing the Get pretty well. All the tribes kind of had a way they could go off the deep end but the Red Talons seemed the most likely to do so and were the most fanatical and inflexible, to a point they were moving their tribe towards extinction. I wonder if the Get going off is left over from Swedracula because W5 seems like it's been in development, possible hell, forever. A big part of it is likely that the industry has changed and it's not the 90's anymore and you can't just crank poo poo out that fast. Look at the CoD books even prior to 5e coming along those were infrequent at best. Another part of it is that White Wolf as it exists now (a part of Paradox) was upfront they weren't doing the books in house which is why Modipheus was the original publisher of V5 with some OP supplement books and now Renegade is the main partner. W5 to the best of my knowledge was being handled by Hunter games or something like that but at this point who the hell knows whose actually writing it. I agree it would have been nice to have the 5 core games all out by now, but they're doing a decent job fixing the mess caused by Swededracula in the first place and with Achille at the helm things feel like they're going in the right direction and all we can do now is be patient and wait for the books to release.
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Oct 4, 2022 00:02
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TheCenturion posted:We're not saying your character concept is based on a First Nations myth about a cannibal spirit, but man, I hope your character is never stuck somewhere with nothing to eat but people. Gonna make a Galestalker that carts a fanny pack of crickets around with them.
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Oct 4, 2022 00:48
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joylessdivision posted:W5 to the best of my knowledge was being handled by Hunter games or something like that but at this point who the hell knows whose actually writing it. Yeah, Hunter Entertainment. Then Paradox decided to pull it in-house for reasons unknown.
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Oct 4, 2022 00:52
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citybeatnik posted:Gonna make a Galestalker that carts a fanny pack of crickets around with them. How many times could a Garou rage been stopped if they'd only had a snickers?
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Oct 4, 2022 00:59
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Dawgstar posted:According to something I read the Get are not Wyrm-tainted but instead in the throws of some new vocabulary term and are a group of violent Gaian zealots. Yeah, I know. I guess 'more so.' Like Harano but angry, maybe? Early promotional materials called it "Haglust" if I recall correctly. However, a Facebook comment from one of the board game tie-in developers more or less stated that the Get have indeed fallen to the Wyrm. Both of these things could be true; perhaps the Get got so pissed off that they ended up pulling off a White Howler-tier kind of a Really Bad Move. Come to think of it, has any current W5 material made any mention of the Black Spiral Dancers at all? Or any of the usual faces of the Wyrm, Formori, Pentex subsidiaries, all that stuff? I suppose it's just Earthblood, right? Who knows if that's even still "canon," so to speak. I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to chuck out the Dancers and have the Get serve as the Garou face of the Wyrm, if the antagonist of this edition is even the Wyrm and its forces at all. An emphasis on "surviving the Apocalypse" implies that this might be more of a game about looking out for you and yours as the end of the world comes to bear with the occasional factory raid as a treat.
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Oct 4, 2022 01:11
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joylessdivision posted:How many times could a Garou rage been stopped if they'd only had a snickers?
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Oct 4, 2022 01:11
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citybeatnik posted:Gonna make a Galestalker that carts a fanny pack of crickets around with them. I doubt the tribal totem would find this an acceptable practice.
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Oct 4, 2022 01:44
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Ferrinus posted:Okay but what if they have low Athletics but high Brawl or Melee? What if they were using a Blood Surge or other mechanic to make their attack pool even higher than usual? By default, being good at offense also entails being good at defense, at least in a direct confrontation... unless you're able to enter bullet time, at which point you either lose the ability to parry or have to separate your parry attempt from your attack attempt such that you can no longer apply certain bonuses to both simultaneously? Then you could still hit them because they could roll shittily on Athletics, and the narrative would be "they try to parry and fail" or "they struck you before you realized it, but you got a good shot in of your own before they could twist out of the way" Whether the pool was necessarily Melee for the parry is moot, they still wouldn't roll a second melee attack because the action economy means you get 1 attack pool (which you can split to attack multiple people) and then successively shrinking dodge pools (-1 for ever successive attack until you're out of dice) for defense. Normally when two people are both attacking each other, they'd just roll attack and get no dodges against each other, and if they tied they both landed a single success on each other like Goku and Vegeta punching each other in the face at the same time, though maybe it's more they got you in the shoulder while you stabbed them through the thigh. The Celerity 5 melee skill obviates the contest and says that one side basically gets to hit a stationary target like they're playing teeball, the other person instead probably gets hit but then gets to attack the speedy mcspeedsalot person with an attack, maybe they can connect if the person has a lovely dodge pool. You can argue that logically this makes no sense in the real world, and you'd be right since if you can move so fast the other person is stationary, why wouldn't you be able to just hack at them repeatedly until they look like ground chuck? It's a conceit made for gameplay balance because ultimately it's a game. Requiem did the same thing, and we're all better off for it, because oWoD Celerity was stupid and broken as gently caress and terrible, like 90% of the combat system in oWoD.
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Oct 4, 2022 01:49
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Nessus posted:Packed with peanuts, Waaksha's really satisfies. (Gnosis 4, Talen 2: throw it into a Garou's mouth to drain 3 Rage points)  blessed post.Free Cog posted:Early promotional materials called it "Haglust" if I recall correctly. However, a Facebook comment from one of the board game tie-in developers more or less stated that the Get have indeed fallen to the Wyrm. Both of these things could be true; perhaps the Get got so pissed off that they ended up pulling off a White Howler-tier kind of a Really Bad Move. I don't how canon Earthblood is, but I believe "Heart of the Forest" the visual novel is truer to the W5 canon. Like that was a thing they were pushing when it came out
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Oct 4, 2022 02:07
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Fuzz posted:Then you could still hit them because they could roll shittily on Athletics, and the narrative would be "they try to parry and fail" or "they struck you before you realized it, but you got a good shot in of your own before they could twist out of the way" No, what I'm saying is that as you describe it the "attack with hyperspeed" power could literally worsen the attacker's defense because it demands they assemble and roll a separate pool based on different traits rather than just use the one they attack with. Like if I willpower and blood surge my Strength + Melee to deliver a huge pile of successes against my victim, that roll protects me at the same time as it hurts my enemy. But if I'm moving fast enough, I now have to separately use Athletics to dodge at the same time as I attack, possibly requiring me to blood surge or burn willpower twice if I want to be safe?
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Oct 4, 2022 02:09
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Ferrinus posted:No, what I'm saying is that as you describe it the "attack with hyperspeed" power could literally worsen the attacker's defense because it demands they assemble and roll a separate pool based on different traits rather than just use the one they attack with. Like if I willpower and blood surge my Strength + Melee to deliver a huge pile of successes against my victim, that roll protects me at the same time as it hurts my enemy. But if I'm moving fast enough, I now have to separately use Athletics to dodge at the same time as I attack, possibly requiring me to blood surge or burn willpower twice if I want to be safe? No? Maybe go back and read the rules on combat again?
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Oct 4, 2022 02:23
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joylessdivision posted:No? Maybe go back and read the rules on combat again? So am I supposed to I believe you or Fuzz?
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Oct 4, 2022 03:01
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joylessdivision posted:I don't how canon Earthblood is, but I believe "Heart of the Forest" the visual novel is truer to the W5 canon. Like that was a thing they were pushing when it came out I haven't played it since it came out but I think Heart talked about the Get having fallen, or something similar, even there.
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Oct 4, 2022 03:05
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TheCenturion posted:I doubt the tribal totem would find this an acceptable practice.
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Oct 4, 2022 03:45
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Dawgstar posted:I haven't played it since it came out but I think Heart talked about the Get having fallen, or something similar, even there. I've been meaning to actually play it because I've got it on two different consoles but  Also I'm still mad as hell that Earthblood is such a janky piece of poo poo. How the hell do you screw up the combat in a game where going Crinos is the point?!
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Oct 4, 2022 04:23
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It just annoys me that, as people have said, the Get were very *very* much rehabilitated by Revised. Whereas the Red Talons were depicted as basically one half step away from falling to the Wyrm already, and are functionally impossible to play unless you just wanna be a contrarian who drags the game down, or are playing them way against type.joylessdivision posted:Also I'm still mad as hell that Earthblood is such a janky piece of poo poo. How the hell do you screw up the combat in a game where going Crinos is the point?! I still love that you can get a talent that lets you mark and shoot people in rapid succession... but you're still using a hand crossbow. so in practice you stand up, shoot someone, everyone notices you, you reload, shoot someone else, start being shot at, reload, shoot someone else, finally go crinos.
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Oct 4, 2022 05:18
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Also, I wonder why they didn't rename the Fianna.
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Oct 4, 2022 12:33
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joylessdivision posted:Also I'm still mad as hell that Earthblood is such a janky piece of poo poo. How the hell do you screw up the combat in a game where going Crinos is the point?! Also the protagonist. You choose the most blandy mcblanderson option available? Heck, even the original game that never saw the light of day had you as The Last White Howler which is dumb but it's not a generic Fianna. Thought: Make a five Garou strong pack and you've got to swap to them to their specialty. There are so many examples of this kind of thing, I know, but the only one I can think of this early in the morning is the D&D game Demon Stone.
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Oct 4, 2022 14:19
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Meanwhile Heart of the Forest rules and is totally worth playing.
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Oct 4, 2022 14:40
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Dawgstar posted:Also the protagonist. You choose the most blandy mcblanderson option available? Heck, even the original game that never saw the light of day had you as The Last White Howler which is dumb but it's not a generic Fianna. How else would we get to increase our rage if not by chugging booze though! God drat that game just upsets me the more I think about it. And I got pretty far into it too before the awful combat, jank and straight up crashing finally forced me to admit I was not having a good time at all and the game sucked. There's a skeleton of a decent game there, but it seriously suffers in execution. At least the visual novels have been good and the Choice Of games are good. Now that I've finished reading the Wraith 1e core I want to actually charge my Oculus so I can give Wraith Afterlife a shot.
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Oct 4, 2022 15:04
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joylessdivision posted:At least the visual novels have been good and the Choice Of games are good. Now that I've finished reading the Wraith 1e core I want to actually charge my Oculus so I can give Wraith Afterlife a shot. Now that you mention it a Choice of Games for Woof would be neat.
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Oct 4, 2022 16:14
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Kurieg posted:It just annoys me that, as people have said, the Get were very *very* much rehabilitated by Revised. Whereas the Red Talons were depicted as basically one half step away from falling to the Wyrm already, and are functionally impossible to play unless you just wanna be a contrarian who drags the game down, or are playing them way against type. Also the Shadow Lords, if you needed a group of giant assholes who have had actual Wyrm-taint issues.
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Oct 4, 2022 16:53
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Tsilkani posted:Also the
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Oct 4, 2022 17:10
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At least Silent Striders might be more playable since all the Egypt horseshit will be axed and their verbs basically make them out to be Werewolf Rangers? (Whatever, Bone Gnawers were and probably still will be the only truly cool tribe)
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Oct 4, 2022 18:30
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Glancing at the list I'm surprised to see that "survive" or something similar isn't one of the things listed with the Bone Gnawers, since that's one of the things they do. Coupled with Honor being their reknown i hope they're not going to move them away from stuff like leaving pb&banana sandwiches out for Elvis. But then Honor also tracks since the tribe tended to respect those that kept their word and looked after their own.
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Oct 4, 2022 18:38
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Fuzz posted:At least Silent Striders might be more playable since all the Egypt horseshit will be axed and their verbs basically make them out to be Werewolf Rangers? (Whatever, Bone Gnawers were and probably still will be the only truly cool tribe) I do not appreciate this slander of the Black Furies* *as of 1e core where they weren't an entire tribe of man hating lesbians. Please god don't let them turn into a tribe of man hating lesbians at any point please lord, I ask for so little
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Oct 4, 2022 19:28
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joylessdivision posted:I do not appreciate this slander of the Black Furies* Remember Ericsson wanted them to be all violently pro-life, so things are better already.
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Oct 4, 2022 20:23
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I am told that the Galestrikers and their patron spirit North Wind's ban is okay because partaking in a fresh kill doesn't necessarily mean eating flesh, like spirit hunts exist as well.
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Oct 4, 2022 20:46
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