Strategy & Wargames - middlebrow autodidact "history buffs" who yearn to pull levers

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Strategy & Wargames - middlebrow autodidact "history buffs" who yearn to pull levers

«‹›162 »

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

alarumklok posted:

super ambitious tirefires are the best

everyone should play amazing cultivation simulator

It's on gamepass too.

# ? Sep 30, 2022 16:51

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# ? May 23, 2024 10:23

MLKQUOTEMACHINE: Oct 22, 2012; Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

Takanago posted:

Terra Invicta is stupidly ambitious and tries to do too way too many things and half of it barely works and I love it.

# ? Sep 30, 2022 17:09

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Terra Invicta with a minimum amount of modding would be the ideal QAnon game. Just rename some factions and occasionally refer to the aliens as demons and you're good to go.

# ? Sep 30, 2022 17:11

MLKQUOTEMACHINE: Oct 22, 2012; Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice-skate uphill

I hope they make the game wide open to modders because there's no way in hell they're gonna finish this poo poo on their own, let alone leave it in a state that's fun.

# ? Sep 30, 2022 17:13

the bitcoin of weed: Nov 1, 2014

amazing cultivation simulator is the best of the dwarf fortress-likes

# ? Sep 30, 2022 17:23

skooma512: Feb 8, 2012; You couldn't grok my race car, but you dug the roadside blur.

Takanago posted:

Terra Invicta is stupidly ambitious and tries to do too way too many things and half of it barely works and I love it.

We will watch its career... with interest.

# ? Sep 30, 2022 18:26

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Martha Stewart Undying posted:

I hope they make the game wide open to modders because there's no way in hell they're gonna finish this poo poo on their own, let alone leave it in a state that's fun.

I think it already has Workshop?

# ? Oct 1, 2022 17:44

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Did someone mention the politics of Terra Invicta?

That resume, jfc.

# ? Oct 1, 2022 18:24

Cuttlefush: Jan 15, 2014; gotta have my purp

a friend had me watch them play Terra Invicta and they had me convinced it was a game based on Left Behind and trying to make a second coming happen or something. didn't see a single fuckin alien and it looked like you just sorta play spoils-guzzling coup master as normal so I totally bought it. it really would be a good q-anon or whatever game

# ? Oct 2, 2022 17:56

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

Frosted Flake posted:

Did someone mention the politics of Terra Invicta?

That resume, jfc.

Waypoint Radio was talking about the game o. Friday and said Humanity First was "a little fashy"

# ? Oct 2, 2022 18:04

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Frosted Flake posted:

Did someone mention the politics of Terra Invicta?

That resume, jfc.

he's a white hate fighting the traitors in the Deep State

it's a Q game

# ? Oct 3, 2022 17:39

Pryor on Fire: May 14, 2013; they don't know all alien abduction experiences can be explained by people thinking saving private ryan was a documentary

That character is obviously a parody, if anything it makes me thing the writers are lefties. I have not played the game and know nothing about it besides what has been posted here.

# ? Oct 3, 2022 18:08

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/open_sketchbook/status/1576909326358151168?t=03kU6-G8BKWBv-H1jF7VBQ&s=19

# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:36

BadOptics: Sep 11, 2012

Frosted Flake posted:

Did someone mention the politics of Terra Invicta?

That resume, jfc.

The position of "The Aliens" on that chart is just :discourse:

# ? Oct 3, 2022 19:48

KirbyKhan: Mar 20, 2009; Soiled Meat

The politics of Terra Invictus is bananas but in a great way. Just a lil bit of shotposting in your flavor text, as a treat.

# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:01

Archduke Frantz Fanon: Sep 7, 2004

BadOptics posted:

The position of "The Aliens" on that chart is just

of course they are pro alien! they are supposed to be!

# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:02

BadOptics: Sep 11, 2012

Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:

of course they are pro alien! they are supposed to be!

Strangely enough they are kind of "meh" on how cynical/idealistic their invasion plan is supposed to be.

Alien Commander - "I guess it's because we're either xenophobes or we want their water. Maybe it's just for the love of the game."

# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:07

The Chad Jihad: Feb 24, 2007

Yeah the aliens have other stuff going on, humanity is kind of a means to an end

# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:20

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Nerf Wars: On downgrading Russian systems & units in Command

lol forums are unreadable on this one.

The request can be summed up as:
�So, when are you guys going to nerf Russian equipment in Command�s database, to match what we are seeing in Ukraine? It seems it is performing well below official specs.�

(Oxford Dictionary: �to nerf�: (of a video game developer) reduce the power of (a character, weapon, etc.) in a new instalment or update of a video game.)

A naval-oriented variant of this comment is: �I tried simulating the attack on the cruiser Moskva, and I just couldn�t sink it as happened it real life. So CMO is probably talking up Russian hardware.�

Now, there is a short and direct answer to both these claims, but we have been advised not to print it here. So let�s go into the more elaborate and slightly more polite version instead.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 20:55 on Oct 3, 2022

# ? Oct 3, 2022 20:52

Mirthless: Mar 27, 2011; by the sex ghost

Frosted Flake posted:

Nerf Wars: On downgrading Russian systems & units in Command

lol forums are unreadable on this one.

The request can be summed up as:
�So, when are you guys going to nerf Russian equipment in Command�s database, to match what we are seeing in Ukraine? It seems it is performing well below official specs.�

(Oxford Dictionary: �to nerf�: (of a video game developer) reduce the power of (a character, weapon, etc.) in a new instalment or update of a video game.)

A naval-oriented variant of this comment is: �I tried simulating the attack on the cruiser Moskva, and I just couldn�t sink it as happened it real life. So CMO is probably talking up Russian hardware.�

Now, there is a short and direct answer to both these claims, but we have been advised not to print it here. So let�s go into the more elaborate and slightly more polite version instead.

lmao, wow

# ? Oct 3, 2022 21:15

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

Frosted Flake posted:

Nerf Wars: On downgrading Russian systems & units in Command

lol forums are unreadable on this one.

The request can be summed up as:
�So, when are you guys going to nerf Russian equipment in Command�s database, to match what we are seeing in Ukraine? It seems it is performing well below official specs.�

(Oxford Dictionary: �to nerf�: (of a video game developer) reduce the power of (a character, weapon, etc.) in a new instalment or update of a video game.)

A naval-oriented variant of this comment is: �I tried simulating the attack on the cruiser Moskva, and I just couldn�t sink it as happened it real life. So CMO is probably talking up Russian hardware.�

Now, there is a short and direct answer to both these claims, but we have been advised not to print it here. So let�s go into the more elaborate and slightly more polite version instead.

what the commenters want is to reenact war porn on their favorite videogame and not assess or accurately recreate the conditions for failure and/or success :v:

# ? Oct 3, 2022 21:45

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Danann posted:

what the commenters want is to reenact war porn on their favorite videogame and not assess or accurately recreate the conditions for failure and/or success

# ? Oct 3, 2022 21:56

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Frosted Flake posted:

Nerf Wars: On downgrading Russian systems & units in Command

lol forums are unreadable on this one.

The request can be summed up as:
�So, when are you guys going to nerf Russian equipment in Command�s database, to match what we are seeing in Ukraine? It seems it is performing well below official specs.�

(Oxford Dictionary: �to nerf�: (of a video game developer) reduce the power of (a character, weapon, etc.) in a new instalment or update of a video game.)

A naval-oriented variant of this comment is: �I tried simulating the attack on the cruiser Moskva, and I just couldn�t sink it as happened it real life. So CMO is probably talking up Russian hardware.�

Now, there is a short and direct answer to both these claims, but we have been advised not to print it here. So let�s go into the more elaborate and slightly more polite version instead.

it actually already IS possible to simulate the attack on the Moskva

https://weaponsrelease.com/2022/04/18/simulating-the-sinking-of-the-moska/

quote:

First off some basics, the Moskva is old. 40 years old. In ship terms this is a life time. Most of her sensors are 70�s and 80�s era. The VLS system, visible between the super structure billowing smoke above, and the secondary structure with the radar, contains the potent S-300 SAM system. We�ve seen Ukraine use this to good effect as well as the Russians on land.

The specific details of this engagement are fuzzy. Was there only 2 Neptune�s? Or did only 2 strike? Was there a drone providing target information? Did the Russians even use the fire control radar or did these missiles strike without warning? Was there Grisha escorts that also fired on the incoming Neptune�s?

The Neptune is a Ukrainian upgrade/clone of the SSC-6 Bal, or KH-35. A max range of about 80 nautical miles delivers 145 kg of explosive and incendiary package just 30 ft above the sea.

First off, this is all in Command Modern Operations, check it out at Matrix Games or on Steam. I�ve placed the Moskva barely within range of the Neptune as well as a Bayraktar TB2 drone nearby. Sea state is a 3, close to what the weather is supposed to have been. It�s night, and for our first run we�ll assume max technical competence.

So lets get the elephant in the room up front. Russia has been like an 800 lb Offensive Lineman who tied his shoelaces together and poo poo his pants. In the war game community we�ve assumed a certain threshold of competence. You have to assume your opponent is a threat, and a deadly one at that. Not until an event like this comes along would you think otherwise.

Really, go back a year ago, and if someone told you that the Russian Black Sea Flagship would get sunk by two untested ASM�s you�d call me nuts. But here we are.

For the first run I�m turning on all the radars, assuming base competence, and we�ll work backwards from there. The yellow ring is the surface sensor range, and the light blue circle is our detection range for a target coming in at 30 ft ASL.

Right as predicted we detect the incoming vampire. In this case the Top Dome (Fire Control Radar), Top Pair (Search Radar), and Top Steer (Search Radar) sensors.

At about 14nm the S-300 fires.

One Neptune is intercepted at 12nm out, the second at 5nm out. Even if a giant fireball erupted from the interception I�d say there�s almost no chance that any debris could strike the outboard missile tubes on the Moskva. I�ll call that one survival.

Now let�s simulate some incompetence!

The OODA loop is Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. First we need to see the threat. Then we orient to it. Then we decide how to respond. Lastly we respond.
pre:
local a = ScenEdit_SelectedUnits()
print(a)
for k, v in pairs(a) do
    unitMoskva = (v[1].guid)
end
local unit = ScenEdit_GetUnit({guid=unitMoskva})
print(unit.OODA)
There�s a bit going on here, first I select the Moskva and run this. That�s the first line, it gets me the info on the selected unit. Then I pull out the ID from a table and get all the info. It spits out the OODA values, which gives us :
pre:
{ detection = 15, targeting = 8, evasion = 2 }
Targeting has the biggest impact in this test, as that�s the delay in how long it takes for our system to actually engage. Detection makes less difference as the radars or sensors do the work. Lastly evasion is not much of an issue as this is a boat. It�s slow.

So lets bump this up a bit. How about we double everything? All other variables remain the same. Radar is on. The radars detect the Neptune at about the same point, 18nm. This time the Neptune�s make it to within 4 nautical miles before being splashed.

Now we double it again, detection = 60, targeting = 32, and evasion = 8. Detection is at the same distance, 18 nm. But this time the SAM�s don�t respond until the Neptune�s are 6nm out. Both incoming missiles are splashed within 3 nm. Things are getting closer�

And now we double again.

At this point both Neptune�s hit without even a response from the Moskva. Based on our OODA values it took more than 64 seconds for the Moskva to orient, decide, and act. Interestingly at a 45 second targeting time the SA-N-4B Gecko was able to engage and destroy both missiles at roughly 1 mile out.

Unfortunately I can�t cripple the damage control response time like I can with the OODA loop, though you can spawn fires in specific systems should you so desire.

It�s worth mentioning that the Moskva could not detect the TB2 drone operating 20 nm away from the ship.

But what if the radar was off? Or broken? Or maybe someone drank the coolant? Who knows what sort of shenanigans occur. If the radar is off, and the OODA loop is strong, can the Moskva survive?

Oof. Detection isn�t until the SIGINT package receives active radar warnings from the Neptune strike.

At 1800 meters the CIWS opens up.

A single Gecko strikes one of the missiles while the other dodges the antiquated CIWS to strike the Moskva.

Lastly I turn off the radar and increase the reaction time by 10 seconds. The Moskva gets the same active radar alert at 3 nm out.

This time there is no response from the Moskva. 10 seconds was the difference between a Gecko and the CIWS striking the targets. Was the radar operator pre-occupied hunting for a TB2 in the shadows? Did the command team lose focus and divert resources to a minor threat?

If you don�t disable radar sensors at a minimum, or even just change the OODA loop, the Moskva looks much more survivable. This base level of competence is our starting point, being able to granulate the details accordingly makes it interesting.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 13:47

Regarde Aduck: Oct 19, 2012; c l o u d k i t t e n; Grimey Drawer

gradenko_2000 posted:

it actually already IS possible to simulate the attack on the Moskva

https://weaponsrelease.com/2022/04/18/simulating-the-sinking-of-the-moska/

yeah its interesting seeing the usual suspects flip between 'Russians are all incompetent and bad at war' and 'all their stuff is really bad'. Because if they're incompetent how would you even know how good the equipment was? Is the T72B3 a bad tank because a lot of them got blown up, or were they just being used poorly (it's probably the latter due to very little screening infantry). I just wanna ask these dumb fucks what they think would happen if a Javelin slammed into the roof of an Abrams, or Challanger 2 or Leopard 2. The Abrams might come off best with the blow out panels but the crew is probably still swiss cheese. Challanger 2 has 2 part ammo/charges all over the turret and hull and would probably go up like a roman candle. Best protected tank in NATO bla bla.

I don't get grogs that can't do critical thinking. Why even be a grog if you're not overanalysing everything? Just to be a curmudgeon?

# ? Oct 4, 2022 13:56

oscarthewilde: May 16, 2012; I would often go there
To the tiny church there

Regarde Aduck posted:

yeah its interesting seeing the usual suspects flip between 'Russians are all incompetent and bad at war' and 'all their stuff is really bad'. Because if they're incompetent how would you even know how good the equipment was? Is the T72B3 a bad tank because a lot of them got blown up, or were they just being used poorly (it's probably the latter due to very little screening infantry). I just wanna ask these dumb fucks what they think would happen if a Javelin slammed into the roof of an Abrams, or Challanger 2 or Leopard 2. The Abrams might come off best with the blow out panels but the crew is probably still swiss cheese. Challanger 2 has 2 part ammo/charges all over the turret and hull and would probably go up like a roman candle. Best protected tank in NATO bla bla.

I don't get grogs that can't do critical thinking. Why even be a grog if you're not overanalysing everything? Just to be a curmudgeon?

ideology trumps everything (as usual)

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:16

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Regarde Aduck posted:

I don't get grogs that can't do critical thinking. Why even be a grog if you're not overanalysing everything? Just to be a curmudgeon?

imo it literally goes back to how Tiger tanks were modelled in Advanced Squad Leader or whatever.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:18

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

actually, that blog post from the developers is apt and correct: the hardware is the hardware, and what matters are the soft factors

TOAW does this as well, and WITE does this as well, and even the Decisive Campaigns games do this: while there might be SOME subjectivity in assigning numerical stats to the equipment, the idea is that the equipment stats are effectively a constant across scenarios and timelines, and all you adjust up and down are the proficiency levels

so all of these people bitching about how they need to downgrade the Russians should do it themselves. They already have the tools to do so!

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:19

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Anyone who�s been in the military, or people who take military history seriously, knows that but hardware has this indelible mark on both amateur history and wargames.

We�ve talked about this before, maybe in the WW3 thread, but the expert consensus is that the Regia Marina had good ships and submarines, crews and leadership that were variable but generally agreed to be brave, and a catastrophic logistical situation (no fuel, something like 23 types of torpedo in service).

More importantly you have poor political and strategic direction and an overall mission of attacking convoys escorted by the largest navy in the world while also trying to escort their own convoys, all in confined waters within range of aircraft. Beyond that is Italy�s limited industrial base which meant that not only could ships not be replaced, even repairing them was difficult.

What�s the natural result? The Regia Marina fights one of the most intense naval wars in history for 3 years while keenly aware that they cannot afford to lose. Lose ships, lose convoys, lose control of the sea, and then lose the war.

When the official histories were written in the 50�s the British characterized the Italians as either not putting to sea, or breaking off engagements when they appeared to be on the verge of victory. This obviously fit the British narrative of being underdogs - and to be sure the Mediterranean fleet suffered appalling losses and showed great courage of their own - but it explained how the Italian navy fought from the British perspective.

Right, so 20 years after that when naval boardgames are being published, or even today with say War Thunder, what is the wargamer�s takeaway? The reason the Italians avoided this fight or that, or their battleships rarely went to sea, or they didn�t land more hits at Cape Matapan was that Italian ships weren�t very good.

It�s such a central element of their thinking.

e: it�s way more than I can get into here, but when the first Allied official histories of WW2 were written ULTRA was still secret, so many engagements or decisions made possible because of ULTRA intercepts were explained as Allied brilliance, Axis incompetence or luck. That�s also skewed a lot of people�s perceptions of things ranging from El Alamein to Matapan, to Mediterranean convoy battles, Normandy, the U-Boat campaign etc.

The Ukrainian stroke of luck with Moskva was already rumoured to be greatly aided by still-classified American assistance of some kind. I expect something similar happened here where the plucky underdog one-in-a-million shot was facilitated by a satellite noticing a radar was under repair or something.

Frosted Flake has issued a correction as of 14:40 on Oct 4, 2022

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:34

Mans: Sep 14, 2011; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Well to be fair, Italian ships are really strong in world of warships but I assume that's because the game Devs are vultures that make new lines intentionally overpowered.

For a long time the strongest boats in the game were German and soviet paper models that turned Japanese and American designs into cripples.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:43

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Mans posted:

Well to be fair, Italian ships are really strong in world of warships but I assume that's because the game Devs are vultures that make new lines intentionally overpowered.

For a long time the strongest boats in the game were German and soviet paper models that turned Japanese and American designs into cripples.

The sorrow and the pity of War Thunder is that the research and models are being used for that game.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 14:49

BadOptics: Sep 11, 2012

Regarde Aduck posted:

yeah its interesting seeing the usual suspects flip between 'Russians are all incompetent and bad at war' and 'all their stuff is really bad'. Because if they're incompetent how would you even know how good the equipment was? Is the T72B3 a bad tank because a lot of them got blown up, or were they just being used poorly (it's probably the latter due to very little screening infantry). I just wanna ask these dumb fucks what they think would happen if a Javelin slammed into the roof of an Abrams, or Challanger 2 or Leopard 2. The Abrams might come off best with the blow out panels but the crew is probably still swiss cheese. Challanger 2 has 2 part ammo/charges all over the turret and hull and would probably go up like a roman candle. Best protected tank in NATO bla bla.

I don't get grogs that can't do critical thinking. Why even be a grog if you're not overanalysing everything? Just to be a curmudgeon?

That's not even getting into the fact the Ukraine has be using the same gear to great effect! Or that it would be stupid to claim that the Abrams is poo poo because of, say, the Saudi's poo poo employment of them in their genocidal war in Yemen. As gradenko mentioned, it's the soft factors that are going to have some of the biggest effects.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 15:17

The Chad Jihad: Feb 24, 2007

Demo fest on steam; you may enjoy Total Conflict: Resistance. Whereas Freeman: Guerrilla Warfare asked "What if mount and blade but guns oh oops this is really popular lets pause things and switch to an engine that actually's actually suited to the task" , Total Conflict says "What if mountain blade but guns, but controlling brigades on the strat map and body-hopping on the battle map". Battles so far seem to be everyone gets pinned and domed from the distance until a bradley rolls up and slaughters whoever doesn't have a bradley

# ? Oct 4, 2022 15:27

Pryor on Fire: May 14, 2013; they don't know all alien abduction experiences can be explained by people thinking saving private ryan was a documentary

Frosted Flake posted:

The Ukrainian stroke of luck with Moskva was already rumoured to be greatly aided by still-classified American assistance of some kind. I expect something similar happened here where the plucky underdog one-in-a-million shot was facilitated by a satellite noticing a radar was under repair or something.

It's pretty safe to assume that the US is feeding real time high res satellite data to Ukraine in some format and they are using that to target vehicles and boats and logistics. Exactly how this works and how good the data is will probably be classified forever.

# ? Oct 4, 2022 16:37

Top Gun Reference: Oct 9, 2012; Pillbug

Terra Invicta is cool because I get to do this:

# ? Oct 4, 2022 23:15

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

the politics of Terra Invicta are very funny taken together. Color revolutions are a game mechanic. The US can be fixed in a few clicks by switching the budget from military to welfare. Israel is a "flawed democracy."

KirbyKhan posted:

It is hard to explain Terra Invicta peicemeal: just seeing on Turn 2 "Russia starts invasion of Ukraine" is like red flag city but then you buy INTERPOL to give your agent +3 Investigation skill, take control of France with 4 lucky dice rolls, and set your celebrity to Improve Public Opinion so you can get the UK back into the European Union by 2023. It is bananas and then the aliens start showing up

The above play was funded entirely by taking control of African nations, increasing the Spoils rating there to extract as much $$ as possible, and funneling it into Benelux investments infrastructure. This is all bad, but like it is so much that it just kinda bounces off my brain pan.

There's a reason why Paradox or anyone hasn't created a modern day grand strategy game yet, too many systems and variables to keep track of and too complex plus constantly having to deal with realism critiques.

Hooded Horse are sci-fi guys whose heart is clearly in the space rocketry stuff so I can't blame them for building a wacky abstract model, the very fact they tried to make a modern geopolitical simulation at all is surprising and impressive.

Takanago posted:

Terra Invicta is stupidly ambitious and tries to do too way too many things and half of it barely works and I love it.

That's what Paradox used to be like. It's a good scrappy attitude to have.

# ? Oct 5, 2022 00:16

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

Terra Invicta with a minimum amount of modding would be the ideal QAnon game. Just rename some factions and occasionally refer to the aliens as demons and you're good to go.

Funnily enough there've been a few attempts at that already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCGFwVjfmf0

It ain't good: https://www.quartertothree.com/fp/2020/08/05/lets-meet-secret-government-member-ramiro-vazquez/

# ? Oct 5, 2022 00:22

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

https://twitter.com/TheKrulakCenter/status/1577381043501514756

# ? Oct 5, 2022 06:16

Danann: Aug 4, 2013

gradenko_2000 posted:

https://twitter.com/TheKrulakCenter/status/1577381043501514756

how many war thunder accounts can federal money buy

# ? Oct 5, 2022 06:23

Maximo Roboto: Feb 4, 2012

Pryor on Fire posted:

The character-driven stuff in CK3 is fun but the actual empire building is awful. Fabricate claim, invade, shuffle titles over and over. One game of that and it's already tedious. I don't really care how awesome my family or council is because everything they do is so boring.

Is that any different from CK 2? I do like how in that one you can get stochastic random building caused by adventurers from your house going and invading random places, if you're say Norse pagan.

# ? Oct 5, 2022 19:20

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# ? May 23, 2024 10:23

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

The PE of CMO is great, the comms jamming in particular is really handy. I�m surprised it�s not included in Commercial.

# ? Oct 5, 2022 19:24

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > Strategy & Wargames - middlebrow autodidact "history buffs" who yearn to pull levers

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