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K8.0 posted:I mean maybe. What people? Who the gently caress can afford to jump from one expensive platform to another but can't justify a new cooler? the people who aren't buying now but will eventually when the cheaper models come out? there were absolutely people who complained that AM3 coolers didn't work on AM4, and hardly anyone had AM3 to begin with. (though some of that might have been the completely dire state of AM4 coolers during the original ryzen launch. manufacturers were not exactly fast to jump on this new AMD platform. but with global supply chains still being pretty weird, AMD may also have worried about how fast new stuff could be made if they broke compatibility.) I think people are kinda excessively freaked out over a CPU running at 95C. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:And then they could have made something forward compatible with AM6 without sacrificing thermals, assuming z-heights would be the same. They can make it forward compatible with something that doesn't exist yet? 
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Oct 4, 2022 02:12
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Klyith posted:They can make it forward compatible with something that doesn't exist yet? Yes? I assume they already have some idea of what their future socket plans are and can design things to not get in the way of those. edit: The point i was trying to make but didn't very clearly is that if z-height is the major thing making or breaking compatibility here, then they could've just peeled the band-aid now, and I assume future LGA sockets would have similar enough z-heights for that to not be a major issue anymore. Dr. Video Games 0031 fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 02:17
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Yes? I assume they already have some idea of what their future socket plans are and can design things to not get in the way of those. If they were Intel and cycling sockets on every other cpu release but AM6 should be very, very far out, no?
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Oct 4, 2022 02:20
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:edit: The point i was trying to make but didn't very clearly is that if z-height is the major thing making or breaking compatibility here, then they could've just peeled the band-aid now, and I assume future LGA sockets would have similar enough z-heights for that to not be a major issue anymore. Maybe they are planning that sometime soon all their future CPUs will have X3D-style stacked chiplets, and they'll use that z-height to avoid needing to thin down the bottom wafer. Right now the X3D manufacturing is complicated by needing to fit under the same IHS that the normal CPUs use and it adds an extra manufacturing step. The point is that neither of us know poo poo.
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Oct 4, 2022 02:27
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Klyith posted:but with global supply chains still being pretty weird, AMD may also have worried about how fast new stuff could be made if they broke compatibility. Good point and probably the most reasonable explanation for the decision.
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Oct 4, 2022 02:55
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hobbesmaster posted:If they were Intel and cycling sockets on every other cpu release but AM6 should be very, very far out, no? Probably considering we just had the first major motherboard platform shift in a decade with DDR5 and PCIe 5, but nothing is guaranteed.
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Oct 4, 2022 03:09
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ASRock AMD B650 motherboard specs leaked, B650E Taichi is E-ATX with 27 phase VRM Mooooooooooooooooooom! The ASRock engineers are making snow angels in the cocaine agaaaaaaaaaaaain!
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Oct 4, 2022 05:26
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Impressive, so where do the second and third CPUs socket in?
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Oct 4, 2022 05:34
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the latest speculation i've had on the ihs thing is they may want to build the expectation (within internal and third party design teams as much as for any sort of end user) of keeping the cpu at tjmax and just regulating voltages and clocks based on that because while this generation is fine, as density keeps going up they're just going to reach a point where the transfer of heat from the silicon to the ihs becomes a tighter bottleneck than getting it out of the ihs and into the air through whatever system of pipes and tubes and heatsinks and radiators, no matter how good their solder job is. they may do some weird engineering around die thickness to try to improve that, but before the end of the decade i think their compute cores are just going to be too dense for the old paradigm and their focus will be on getting their boosting algorithms to handle the situation really well, the way laptop has already gone. like cooling will still matter but the hot spots within the chip will just be so much hotter than the near side of the ihs that marginally reducing the temperature on the far side will have just terrible diminishing returns
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Oct 4, 2022 05:49
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Klyith posted:I think people are kinda excessively freaked out over a CPU running at 95C. less with 95C and more with Zen 4 being not all that good in value proposition at this point in time, imo
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Oct 4, 2022 11:21
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The board prices are atrocious and AMD really needs to be having a word with the board vendors imo. With 5800X3D existing, I don't feel that any of the new Zens are good value for money, at all.
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Oct 4, 2022 11:29
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:The board prices are atrocious and AMD really needs to be having a word with the board vendors imo. With 5800X3D existing, I don't feel that any of the new Zens are good value for money, at all. the absolute cheapest mobo + 7600X here right now is THREE times of what i paid for my 5600 + B550 SIX times with the X670 ROG ExTrEmE  if the mobo vendors aren't gouging outright the only other explanation is they don't expect Zen 4 to move much product Palladium fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 11:40
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I love how all the B650 boards now have lovely fans everywhere on their ITX boards, for the "baseline" chipset. Just so someone can win a "Longest Bar" competition with PCIe 5.0 NVMe drives
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Oct 4, 2022 12:11
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orcane posted:I love how all the B650 boards now have lovely fans everywhere on their ITX boards, for the "baseline" chipset. Just so someone can win a "Longest Bar" competition with PCIe 5.0 NVMe drives longest as in the Z-axis?
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Oct 4, 2022 12:51
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https://twitter.com/VideoCardz/status/1577269869665550338 I bought a B350 in Aug 2019 for *checks notes* 70 bucks
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Oct 4, 2022 13:17
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gradenko_2000 posted:I bought a B350 in Aug 2019 for *checks notes* 70 bucks look at this dirt peasant who is missing very important features like pointless overclocking
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Oct 4, 2022 13:20
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Palladium posted:look at this dirt peasant who is missing very important features like pointless overclocking A B350 supports overclocking, friend! I dipped my toes into that very thing using this in conjunction with an Athlon 200GE
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Oct 4, 2022 13:32
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gradenko_2000 posted:
Those were pre pandemic dollars, $70 then is about $150 now (in a specific subset of hobbies).
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Oct 4, 2022 13:39
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Palladium posted:less with 95C and more with Zen 4 being not all that good in value proposition at this point in time, imo Oh, yeah, that. AMD has over 50% desktop DIY/enthusiast market share (and laptop is steadily growing), and are trading punches for "fastest CPU" title with the X3D variant loaded in the chamber. They aren't competing on price anymore. They (and the mobo makers) are now putting out the high end models as first wave to get the most money from early adopters. There will definitely be a cheaper 7600 non-X, and mobos that don't cost $200. Eventually. But welcome to a world where AMD is feeling good about their market position. Now we need Intel to compete harder to save us.
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Oct 4, 2022 13:40
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gradenko_2000 posted:A B350 supports overclocking, friend! I dipped my toes into that very thing using this in conjunction with an Athlon 200GE  E: I'm feeling even better about buying this 5800X3D and an okay but not overly expensive B550 ITX board. I expected to feel the itch to get a REALLY new platform and CPU this fall, but the pricing alone killed that idea. orcane fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 14:20
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Zedsdeadbaby posted:The board prices are atrocious and AMD really needs to be having a word with the board vendors imo. With 5800X3D existing, I don't feel that any of the new Zens are good value for money, at all. The era of cheap mobos died when derbauer and friends discovered that Skylake-X boards will power throttle when you push 500 watts through them running unrealistic workloads. Iirc this happened later on with ryzen boards as well, and now everything has oodles of heatsinks and active fans and whatnot. Techtubers reported all over this, the community ate it up, manufacturers picked up on it. Between that and everything needing to look sleek (ie not a commodity), we did this to ourselves. Meanwhile you can run a 5950x on a cheap rear end ugly b350 itx board and get 95% of the performance of the most expensive 87 phase board monstrosity.
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Oct 4, 2022 17:20
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Eyes Only posted:The era of cheap mobos died when derbauer and friends discovered that Skylake-X boards will power throttle when you push 500 watts through them running unrealistic workloads. Iirc this happened later on with ryzen boards as well, and now everything has oodles of heatsinks and active fans and whatnot. Techtubers reported all over this, the community ate it up, manufacturers picked up on it. Between that and everything needing to look sleek (ie not a commodity), we did this to ourselves. This seems like it's going to fix itself when the non-X and non-K processors come out. The non-K 13900 is looking in particular like an insanely good value, the 12900 non-K was $100 less than the -K. AMD did OEM-only non-X 5900s that were certainly a lot cheaper. Maybe this time around there will be enough supply that they'll do consumer releases of them too.
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Oct 4, 2022 17:28
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I think the active fans on these are for the not-yet-existent PCIe gen 5 SSDs that will presumably melt with a 500W video card blowing hot air on them
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Oct 4, 2022 17:58
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Would any of the cheaper chipset motherboards be at all suitable for gaming? Like the A620 (if I got my numbering right).
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Oct 4, 2022 18:08
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Rinkles posted:Would any of the cheaper chipset motherboards be at all suitable for gaming? Like the A620 (if I got my numbering right). All of the announced chipsets will have essentially identical performance in all scenarios today. The only difference between the four (terribly named) options is the amount of USB ports and PCIe 5.0 for the future (which likely won't matter for years). Frankly no one should buy X670 in my opinion unless you are truly Hot and Heavy with your USB/IO needs, but remember that the chipsets are daisy chained on one interface back to the CPU so you won't be pulling full bandwidth on all of em. Getting a hub probably makes more sense. There isn't an A series chipset yet, although a value engineered version of the same Asmedia die used in X670/B650 was rumored at one point. I imagine we will see it when the cheaper APUs launch, which isn't expected until late next year. Cygni fucked around with this message at 18:27 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 18:21
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Cygni posted:All of the announced chipsets will have essentially identical performance in all scenarios today. The only difference between the four (terribly named) options is the amount of USB ports and PCIe 5.0 for the future (which likely won't matter for years). Frankly no one should buy X670 in my opinion unless you are truly Hot and Heavy with your USB/IO needs, but remember that the chipsets are daisy chained on one interface back to the CPU so you won't be pulling full bandwidth on all of em. Getting a hub probably makes more sense.
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Oct 4, 2022 18:31
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Rinkles posted:Would any of the cheaper chipset motherboards be at all suitable for gaming? Like the A620 (if I got my numbering right). We’ll have to see what they do. It might be ok; if you look at the block diagrams for am5 motherboards it’s actually not very clear why you need a chipset at all if you are fine with a lower peripheral count.
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Oct 4, 2022 18:54
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Josh Lyman posted:Do you mean a USB3 hub or…? Yeah, part of what a modern chipset does is function as a PCIe switch chip in part, exposing more PCIe lanes that share a thinner trunk back to the CPU. The difference between X670 and B650 is that you've got a second chipset/switch daisy chained, making more exposed lanes further down the daisy chain. The board makers choose how to break those extra lanes up into some combination of additional PCIe slots, M.2 slots, and USB. With the B650(E) boards announced, we can see that most have 3 M.2s and a 2nd PCIe slot already. In reality, most people don't use the 2nd PCIe slot (and likely shouldnt with modern chonker GPUs). So what X670 is what adds is generally an extra M.2, maybe 1 more likely useless PCIe slot squeezed in, and a lot more fast USB. But it is sharing bandwidth back to the CPU, so it is unlikely you are gonna get max speed on all those fast USBs simultaneously. Hence a USB hub is likely a cheaper option for most people. The blockchart I think shows the mobo maker decisions pretty well: https://twitter.com/momomo_us/status/1566994904978698240
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Oct 4, 2022 20:10
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Rinkles posted:Would any of the cheaper chipset motherboards be at all suitable for gaming? Like the A620 (if I got my numbering right). typically the lowest end chipset is where you run into actual serious performance limitations but we don't have any idea what it'll look like for Zen 4 yet i'd imagine there's still going to be cheaper B650 motherboards on the way since the OEMs haven't announced equivalents to a lot of their cheaper B550/B660 boards yet but even those probably aren't going to be priced well or anything
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Oct 4, 2022 22:31
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My 3700X is doing basically everything I ask it to do, though with the amount of video encoding on inefficient cutting-edge encoders I do I could see huge improvements on newer gen chips, even ones with fewer cores. I could buy a 5700X3D on Black Friday or something, but I'm really hoping this chip keeps me happy until Meteor Lake. We'll just have to see.
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Oct 4, 2022 22:42
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What are the chances of a B650 with validated ECC support and a 7700X coming in at anything approaching a reasonable price? I currently have a mixed workload with some decent amount of gaming (Elite Dangerous and X4 have been my most played games recently), but I also need a decent amount of threads for compiling FreeBSD and software from Ports for my laptop. ECC is pretty much a requirement I can't see myself giving up, but I imagine makes the issue more troublesome. EDIT: Hilariously, 5800X3D is exactly the same price as the 7700X. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Oct 4, 2022 |
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Oct 4, 2022 22:55
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Cygni posted:Yeah, part of what a modern chipset does is function as a PCIe switch chip in part, exposing more PCIe lanes that share a thinner trunk back to the CPU. The difference between X670 and B650 is that you've got a second chipset/switch daisy chained, making more exposed lanes further down the daisy chain. The board makers choose how to break those extra lanes up into some combination of additional PCIe slots, M.2 slots, and USB. If there was finer bifurcation on the CPU PCIE bus so you could get 2 pcie3 1x or similar for WiFi and Ethernet I wouldn’t even need a chipset.
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Oct 4, 2022 23:00
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Craptacular! posted:My 3700X is doing basically everything I ask it to do, though with the amount of video encoding on inefficient cutting-edge encoders I do I could see huge improvements on newer gen chips, even ones with fewer cores. the 5800X3D is a terrible value proposition for video encoding, it's significantly better for gaming than the regular 5800X due to the increased cache but worse for production workloads due to the lower clocks.
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Oct 4, 2022 23:19
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Eyes Only posted:The era of cheap mobos died when derbauer and friends discovered that Skylake-X boards will power throttle when you push 500 watts through them running unrealistic workloads. Iirc this happened later on with ryzen boards as well, and now everything has oodles of heatsinks and active fans and whatnot. Techtubers reported all over this, the community ate it up, manufacturers picked up on it. Between that and everything needing to look sleek (ie not a commodity), we did this to ourselves. There are plenty of cheap motherboards still around... in systems from Dell, HP, Lenovo, and the like.
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Oct 5, 2022 00:00
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Klyith posted:the people who aren't buying now but will eventually when the cheaper models come out? there were absolutely people who complained that AM3 coolers didn't work on AM4, and hardly anyone had AM3 to begin with. Did those people instead go to Intel, or do you think they ended up buying AM4?
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Oct 5, 2022 00:20
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lih posted:typically the lowest end chipset is where you run into actual serious performance limitations but we don't have any idea what it'll look like for Zen 4 yet it's only "serious" when one wants to stick to AMD's clinically dumb notion of needlessly official high TDPs, even less so for a gamer who will never comes remotely close at fully loading the CPU. If you just want to the stick to the 65W perf/W sweet spot then even any trash tier mobo is not gonna hold you back one bit. Palladium fucked around with this message at 00:38 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 00:35
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Eyes Only posted:The era of cheap mobos died when derbauer and friends discovered that Skylake-X boards will power throttle when you push 500 watts through them running unrealistic workloads. Iirc this happened later on with ryzen boards as well, and now everything has oodles of heatsinks and active fans and whatnot. Techtubers reported all over this, the community ate it up, manufacturers picked up on it. Between that and everything needing to look sleek (ie not a commodity), we did this to ourselves. I love how everyone is finally dawning to "Hey pushing silicon to fumes at the factory is actually stupid and we shouldn't do it".
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Oct 5, 2022 00:50
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hobbesmaster posted:If they were Intel and cycling sockets on every other cpu release but AM6 should be very, very far out, no? AM6 will likely show up with DDR6, which is still ways off. But it will definitely be LGA, and there is no reason to expect it to have requirements any different from AM5. Combat Pretzel posted:Someone needs to make a detailed feature spreadsheet for all these boards. 
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Oct 5, 2022 01:21
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lih posted:the 5800X3D is a terrible value proposition for video encoding, it's significantly better for gaming than the regular 5800X due to the increased cache but worse for production workloads due to the lower clocks. I do both. I mostly play games but I'm trying to squeeze as much video into an aging NAS system that can't really be upgraded because of ancient proprietary nonsense, budget, and running out of drive bays.
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Oct 5, 2022 01:30
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the option for trying to squeeze the most video encoding performance out of the system is still going to be the 5900X when it's the same price as the 5800X3D (which is the best gaming option)
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Oct 5, 2022 01:41
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