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WSJ posted:The report says that while Carlsen’s actions at the Sinquefield Cup prompted them to reassess Niemann’s behavior, Carlsen “didn’t talk with, ask for, or directly influence Chess.com’s decisions at all.” This just does not help my view of chess.com being a scummy and bad web site. Why would Carlsen leaving cause them to "reassess"? Is the answer in the 70 page report that I'm not going to read?
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Oct 5, 2022 03:54
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qsvui posted:This just does not help my view of chess.com being a scummy and bad web site. Why would Carlsen leaving cause them to "reassess"? Is the answer in the 70 page report that I'm not going to read? Because it turned chess cheating into national news?
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Oct 5, 2022 04:08
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i read something saying that in nearly every game otb, hans has played moves that have never been played before. could this be true?
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Oct 5, 2022 04:11
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qsvui posted:This just does not help my view of chess.com being a scummy and bad web site. Why would Carlsen leaving cause them to "reassess"? Is the answer in the 70 page report that I'm not going to read? The reigning (or is it considered vacated already?) World Champion just withdrew from a tournament (which is a very strong statement in and of itself) after playing a game against someone we know to have cheated on our website before, citing suspicion of cheating. Gee, I guess we'll just let a known cheater keep playing in our big tournament! If any of the other players withdrew and basically said "Yeah, I'm not playing against that cheater," it would be pretty unfathomable for chess.com to go "meh, it's fine." Also, did you SEE his post-game 2 interview? It was terrible. His analysis of the game HE JUST PLAYED where he just beat the world champion (who does stuff like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmXwdoRG43U) with the black pieces was terrible. The interviewer knew the game better than he did. Chess.com went out of their way to repeatedly say that they are not casting any accusations of Hans cheating OTB in any game. jfc totalnewbie fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 04:24
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Honestly I'm pretty underwhelmed by the report. It does directly contradict Hans in terms of if Hans had cheated in money events, and to a small extent also in terms of frequency. But Hans won two Titled Tuesdays this year! Even with extra attention and scrutiny, they aren't asserting he cheated online post his last ban? I expected more. I can't see from the numbers what stands out about the six OTB tournaments they flagged as deserving another look. It's really strange that they include this entire email exchange that has nothing to do with Hans just because it was apparently the highest rated guy they ever caught and they caught him with five games cheated out ten games played. I mean I guess still an admitted cheater lied when coming clean when he said he never cheated in money events, so he has no credibility when he claims he never cheated OTB. But I have to admit I expected more than a list of the cheating he did 2020 and earlier with an admission that part of how they caught it was changing windows before high accuracy moves. If anything I think this means that if Hans is cheating he became sophisticated enough after 2020 that he is evading detection even online.
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Oct 5, 2022 05:06
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Because it turned chess cheating into national news? I would have had him permanently banned the first time he was caught but I guess that's why I'm not the CEO of an online chess company. totalnewbie posted:The reigning (or is it considered vacated already?) World Champion just withdrew from a tournament (which is a very strong statement in and of itself) after playing a game against someone we know to have cheated on our website before, citing suspicion of cheating. You're getting your timelines mixed up. Hans was banned before Magnus made any statement or public comment about Hans' cheating, besides his "tee hee" tweet which was so vague that he could deny having made any accusation. The first time we learned of Hans' ban was in his interview after playing Dominguez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZuT-_kij0 totalnewbie posted:Gee, I guess we'll just let a known cheater keep playing in our big tournament! Why has this well known cheater been allowed to play in our site for years until now???
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Oct 5, 2022 06:21
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Sub Rosa posted:Honestly I'm pretty underwhelmed by the report. It does directly contradict Hans in terms of if Hans had cheated in money events, and to a small extent also in terms of frequency. But Hans won two Titled Tuesdays this year! Even with extra attention and scrutiny, they aren't asserting he cheated online post his last ban? I expected more.
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Oct 5, 2022 06:29
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Sub Rosa posted:I mean I guess still an admitted cheater lied when coming clean when he said he never cheated in money events, so he has no credibility when he claims he never cheated OTB. I rewatched the interview and technically he said he never cheated in money tournaments outside of the one time when he was 12. I'm still having trouble imagining this goony dude being able to cheat OTB for years undetected or that he could even be disciplined enough to cheat only sparingly. But maybe he found a way or maybe security at these tournaments is really lax 
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Oct 5, 2022 06:37
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Sub Rosa posted:Honestly I'm pretty underwhelmed by the report. It does directly contradict Hans in terms of if Hans had cheated in money events, and to a small extent also in terms of frequency. But Hans won two Titled Tuesdays this year! Even with extra attention and scrutiny, they aren't asserting he cheated online post his last ban? I expected more. well yeah, because if their cheating detection is so good and he cheated after those bans, why didn't they catch him again prior to the current drama? if anything it's the expected result I still think lying about the extent of cheating you already confessed to is enough to warrant a ban OTB. chess.com is also not a great actor and I don't trust them very much either
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Oct 5, 2022 06:38
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most of the time playing against actual people makes me feel like the stupidest person on the planet Then I go from “oh gently caress oh gently caress” to “MATE IN 2 BITCH” because he panicked and moved his queen to precisely the wrong safe square and I feel like a genius. I am still the stupidest person on the planet
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Oct 5, 2022 06:38
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I feel pretty good after playing what I think is a clean game. But Stockfish says I made like 6 blunders and then I feel bad.
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Oct 5, 2022 06:49
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qsvui posted:I rewatched the interview and technically he said he never cheated in money tournaments outside of the one time when he was 12. The buttplug theory wasn't a joke. At least not completely. All a GM would need to gain an advantage cheating is a device that can receive a single bit of information -- a buzz at the right moment. One could hide such a device anywhere.
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Oct 5, 2022 07:02
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qsvui posted:I feel pretty good after playing what I think is a clean game. But Stockfish says I made like 6 blunders and then I feel bad. as a general rule, if stockfish says something is a blunder, and then you look at the board for a bit and can't figure out why, then it's not a blunder at your level--your opponent won't see jow to capitalize on the supposed mistake either (probably)
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Oct 5, 2022 07:02
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Honestly, the main reason I’m skeptical of Niemann cheating in OTB games is that this would require he have a friend to help him out
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Oct 5, 2022 07:14
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why is chess.com so invested in this? why spend so much time and effort to analyze Hans' games and publish a 72 page report because of some shenanigans in a tournanent they had nothing to do with? Publicity. Follow the money, question the motives. They specifically set out to find evidence of something they had already decided was true, what were we expecting this report to say? What they found kind of actually supports what the dude already admitted to anyway.
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Oct 5, 2022 07:36
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because the question of whether Hans cheated was of public interest and they had relevant evidence of far more cheating than Hans admitted to, op
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Oct 5, 2022 07:37
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It's about a GM and the reigning world champion, there'd hardly be a more important scenario in Chess outside like Candidates/the WC itself being involved. also even cynically it's good marketing for the chess dot com business to position themselves as an authority on the big issue that's crept into the regular news
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Oct 5, 2022 07:42
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like, the people who handle cheating at chess.com are the most informed people in the world on the extent of Niemann's cheating, with the possible exception of the FIDE people working on their own report on the topic. It'd be far weirder if they didn't weigh in, and anything less than all the evidence they have would just be irresponsible, so it's 72 pages long
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Oct 5, 2022 07:44
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fisting by many posted:also even cynically it's good marketing for the chess dot com business to position themselves as an authority on the big issue that's crept into the regular news Bingo.
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Oct 5, 2022 07:53
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qsvui posted:You're getting your timelines mixed up. Hans was banned before Magnus made any statement or public comment about Hans' cheating, besides his "tee hee" tweet which was so vague that he could deny having made any accusation. The first time we learned of Hans' ban was in his interview after playing Dominguez: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJZuT-_kij0 I have not gotten any of my timelines mixed up. cheetah7071 posted:like, the people who handle cheating at chess.com are the most informed people in the world on the extent of Niemann's cheating, with the possible exception of the FIDE people working on their own report on the topic. It'd be far weirder if they didn't weigh in, and anything less than all the evidence they have would just be irresponsible, so it's 72 pages long It's more like a couple pages introduction and another page or two rehashing the current situation before getting into any actual reporting, then it's 50 pages of charts and graphs. Which is pretty normal.
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Oct 5, 2022 07:58
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Engines play top chess, undisputedly. Do you know who else plays top chess? Top players. Usually we brag about how perfectly a player played based on how often they chose a top engine move. Somehow we are forgetting this here and drawing different conclusions. The opinions of top players do matter, and would suggest investigation is warranted - but all this nonsense re: statistical analysis and armchair bullshit is just that - nonsense and bullshit.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:05
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statistical analysis is the strongest tool available to detect unusual behavior lol
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Oct 5, 2022 08:07
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Theoretically you could create a program to cheat against humans by having it randomly select one of the top five moves from an engine, making it even harder to detect.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:10
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cheetah7071 posted:statistical analysis is the strongest tool available to detect unusual behavior lol Pretending you are doing actual statistical analysis by doing some mathy looking stuff to prove a conclusion post hoc is the strongest tool available to gain publicity and make money. That's why most companies do it.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:13
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Apsyrtes posted:Pretending you arr doing actual statistical analysis rather than some mathy looking stuff to prove a conclusion post hoc is the strongest tool available to gain publicity and make money. That's why most companies do it. what are your problems with the analysis presented by chess.com? I'm happy to change my opinion if you can point to flaws in its methodology
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Oct 5, 2022 08:14
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Somebody asked Hans if he cheated and he said yes "when I was 16" chess.com just spent weeks to produce a report that says "well ackshually he cheated in Aug and his birthday is in June so technically he really cheated when he was 17 and therefore was lying." In the course of publishing this report they crossed a number of ethical boundaries. Their methodology is definitely flawed but there is enough wrong with this situation I would think to not even have to go into that discussion.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:27
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didn't think so
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Oct 5, 2022 08:28
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and I do not think, when everyone is very interested whether Hans is a cheater, and he at best obscures and at worst outright lies the degree to which he has cheated in the past, it is crossing an ethical line to say "he said he cheated a little but we have strong evidence that he cheated a lot" there remains no proof that he cheated otb and I await the FIDE report on that topic
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Oct 5, 2022 08:30
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The report does point to strangeness on OTB events, but makes sure to mention they don't have metrics such as move times for these games, which are integral in their analysis. Which is very fair. I think it's also reasonable to think that Niemann might have improved his online cheating methods. The only thing that looks unreasonable is believing his cheating wasn't that bad - motherfucker literally pinged the anticheat detection in over a hundred games (so likely cheated in way more), making both his character or the veracity of his words on how he cheated only a few times in random games questionable.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:42
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my mind is still boggling at the idea that it's unethical to publish evidence that an accused cheater cheated in the past
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Oct 5, 2022 08:58
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So there's still no proof he cheated OTB against Carlsen at Sinquefield, great, end of story.
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Oct 5, 2022 08:59
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There'll never be evidence that he cheated at Sinquefield, whether or not he actually did. It's unprovable, and statistical evidence may or may not arise to show whether he has cheated OTB. It'll be a controversy for as long as chess players are alive to remember it, and I think it's more interesting than "Did Deep Blue have human assistance against Kasparov."
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Oct 5, 2022 09:04
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Statistically the couple games at Sinquefield are not enough to draw any definitive conclusion, and he wasn't caught in the act. The whole controversy further ruins statistical analysis. There won't ever likely be evidence about that particular event, even of a statistical nature. However, you're a rube of the Lance Armstrong never failed a drug test kind if you need that exact smoking gun. I wonder what FIDE will dig up for OTB but I dunno how their methods even work lol.
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Oct 5, 2022 09:13
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The most significant thing about the report is the actual list of games they are disclosing, and we'll probably see other pros join Magnus in saying they refuse to play Hans.
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Oct 5, 2022 09:14
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Another thing is the claim he did it only to gain rating to play stronger players - yet he cheated in every single game when he got the chance to play the literal Candidate. Surely if airbagging to Super GM for games was your goal you would turn that poo poo off against Nepo.
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Oct 5, 2022 09:16
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He claimed he never cheated on money tournaments or while streaming either, and the report calls both of those lies His reputation is basically shot at this point because he lied so much about the degree of his past cheating. If he had given the same confession he gave to chess.com (or just stayed silent) while maintaining his innocence in sinquefield, his career would probably be salvageable. I don't really see how he gets to a point where other GMs are willing to play against him from here even if the fide report is inconclusive cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Oct 5, 2022 |
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Oct 5, 2022 09:23
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i agree with cheater7071, hes an expert after all
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Oct 5, 2022 09:25
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Lol
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Oct 5, 2022 09:28
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Apsyrtes posted:If I can be an anecdote: I think you might be a bit burned.
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Oct 5, 2022 12:07
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busalover posted:So there's still no proof he cheated OTB against Carlsen at Sinquefield, great, end of story. Agreed, the lack of evidence proves the opposite and there shan't be any more news
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Oct 5, 2022 12:09
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