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Werewolf by Night was pretty good and makes me feel a little more confident about Blade
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Oct 8, 2022 16:26
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I think some of these analysis of this last episode over look the experience of women being told to not be emotional. “She should really know better” Good lord. I think it’s useful to contrast it with male rage and that might be where they’re going. Especially with all the Emil/abomination scenes. It’s like parents watching love and thunder. One finds a Yep Gorr was right response usually appended with (I might not have kidnapped children though). Gorr’s anger is understand immediately by most parents to be a rational anger. I think looking at Jen / She Hulk this is similar this is rational anger and the rational anger of women is often revolutionary (and I mean this in a literal historical sense). The audience is terrified by it. But the audience also tolerated the societal forces that created the situation. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 17:08
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Bar Ran Dun posted:It’s like parents watching love and thunder. One finds a Yep Gorr was right response usually appended with (I might not have kidnapped children though). Gorr’s anger is understand immediately by most parents to be a rational anger. Wait...was there someone who didn't think his anger was justifiable/rational as a response to what happened to him and his kid, even with the proviso? 'Cause I don't think you need to be a parent to understand that. I'm pretty sure most people can understand anger at losing a child even if they don't have children, and I've never come across anyone who argued that his anger was unreasonable. His plan perhaps, but his actual emotional response? No, not anyone.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:21
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i dunno, i think it's ok to be angry but not ok to smash things
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Oct 8, 2022 17:32
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Bar Ran Dun posted:I think some of these analysis of this last episode over look the experience of women being told to not be emotional. She should know better IF she was fully calm and level headed, but she can't be, no one could be in the situations she's being placed in. That context is important. These expectations we put on women are impossibly unreasonable, and we have to call that out. When Jen tells Bruce in ep 1 that it's fine and she'll just never get mad again for the rest of her life and never be the Hulk, she's showing her internalized misogyny. I'm hoping this show is gonna be her journey towards understanding how expressing anger, perhaps by smashing chuds, can actually be quite healthy. I would say they've been moving her that direction so far. You're definitely right that the issue is complicated by the whole "hysterical woman" trope, that Jen surely has to struggle against every day to get any respect. XboxPants fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 17:53
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kazil posted:i dunno, i think it's ok to be angry but not ok to smash things In the New Testament in Mark the cursing of the fig tree and the clearing of the temple are back to back because they’re about the same thing. 12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs.(D) 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it. 15 On reaching Jerusalem, Jesus entered the temple courts and began driving out those who were buying and selling there. He overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves, 16 and would not allow anyone to carry merchandise through the temple courts. 17 And as he taught them, he said, “Is it not written: ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations’[a]?(E) But you have made it ‘a den of robbers.’”(F) 18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him,(G) because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.(H) 19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples[c] went out of the city.(I) 20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi,(J) look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!” This to say nah it’s okay if Jen smashes things, overs turns the tables in the temple, curses the fig tree to wither and die. What was done to her is a thing that now is regularly done to normal people, like you could go look at 4chan right now and see [b]actually occurring in this moment examples of it on /hc/. God forbid she do some property damages though.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:54
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lol seriously? we're quoting scripture now for our bad mcu takes?
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Oct 8, 2022 17:55
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XboxPants posted:She should know better IF she was fully calm and level headed, but she can't be, no one could be in the situations she's being placed in. That context is important. Anger that arises from a very large gap between what actually is and what ought to be is rational. It’s not a human response to be calm and level headed about it.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:59
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Maybe I’m dense, but why was Jesus being a dick to a fig tree?
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Oct 8, 2022 18:00
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Smashing the TVs to stop revenge porn from being streamed to her parents and professional peers is entire reasonable.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:00
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kazil posted:lol seriously? we're quoting scripture now for our bad mcu takes? Good fiction is about what is happening in the world. And comparing the structure of the stories (MCU) we tell to the stories we tell (Bible) is a normal way to think about them and analyze them.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:03
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Parkingtigers posted:Maybe I’m dense, but why was Jesus being a dick to a fig tree? He was hungry and it wasn’t bearing fruit.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:04
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Jen's a hulk though, and in the course of smashing the TVs she was bringing down the entire room, threatening the people inside of it.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:04
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Anger that arises from a very large gap between what actually is and what ought to be is rational. Right. And so, demanding that she be calm and level headed would be unreasonable. Allowing her to be angry sometimes would be reasonable.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:08
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LongDarkNight posted:Smashing the TVs to stop revenge porn from being streamed to her parents and professional peers is entire reasonable. So is being scared and running for your life when someone starts justifiably destroying TVs in such a way that the entire building starts to crumble. And so is the cops at least detaining that person given the danger that it put other people in. The cops should also be arresting the people who put up the revenge porn in the first place, but the cops we see (or Damage Control in this case) probably don't even know about the revenge porn, and instead more than likely just saw a poo poo load of people come running screaming out of a crumbling building before She-Hulk smashes through a wall and grabs a, to them, random person up in a threatening manner after getting a tip that She-Hulk was doing something bad. All of which is probably the intention of the people orchestrating this entire thing; that She-Hulk looks like the villain to the world in this instance despite doing something understandable given the circumstances they pushed her into. tsob fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 18:08
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Bar Ran Dun posted:He was hungry and it wasn’t bearing fruit. I repeat the question.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:11
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kazil posted:Jen's a hulk though, and in the course of smashing the TVs she was bringing down the entire room, threatening the people inside of it. Yes. Women in St. Petersburg dragged their Union husbands out into the street. Women in France marched to the palace. Seized the king and took his (and his families) rear end to Paris. Yes this is threatening and dangerous.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:25
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Yes. The people in the room who were directly endangered by Jen's anger included her friends and family. Who she probably wouldn't want to have hurt. In fact, she probably didn't want to hurt anyone there except the guy in the black outfit and facemask who setup the stream in the first place, if she was asked about it. So comparing her anger to those examples is a bit hollow, since those are examples of women specifically hurting people they intended to hurt and not causing incidental damage or pain by striking out in a justifiable manner.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:32
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Parkingtigers posted:I repeat the question. hahahahah oh man, young jesus is loving wild. I 100% recommend https://apocrypals.libsyn.com/website for cool weird bible poo poo that also isn't edgelord teen atheist hot takes. /derail
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Oct 8, 2022 18:56
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tsob posted:The people in the room who were directly endangered by Jen's anger included her friends and family. Who she probably wouldn't want to have hurt. In fact, she probably didn't want to hurt anyone there except the guy in the black outfit and facemask who setup the stream in the first place, if she was asked about it. So comparing her anger to those examples is a bit hollow, since those are examples of women specifically hurting people they intended to hurt and not causing incidental damage or pain by striking out in a justifiable manner. So the thing is, if Jen isn't the one in the wrong, but bad things are still happening, then that must mean that there is something systemically wrong. I mean, in this case there are specifically evil chuds that we can blame but what is enabling them to function in the first place? Why is a woman hurting people, even when we know this woman is good? It's not just the chuds. It's all the people that are tolerating the societal forces that created the situation. That's why I brought up the car thing. It shows a contradiction between what we know about Jen, that she is a caring considerate person who wouldn't want to wreck someone's car, and reality, where she is doing that very thing. Either our premise is wrong and she's actually mean, or we have to re-examine our expectations of her (that it's reasonable that she expects to maintain emotional control at all times).
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Oct 8, 2022 19:08
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Parkingtigers posted:I repeat the question. Jesus is a cool guy. He'll heal your sickness and maybe even bring you back to life. But he likes his figs. And if he's hungry you better have some if you're a plant. Basically in the MCU Groot needs to lay in a supply of figs in case of the Second Coming.
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Oct 8, 2022 19:12
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according to the book of John, when Jesus chased dudes out of the temple with a whip Jesus made the whip himself first so like, it wasn't an impulsive anger; he stewed on whether or not running in there flipping tables and whipping asses was really the right call, and after taking the time to calm down and do something productive, he finally concluded yes eat whip dirt bags
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Oct 8, 2022 19:26
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Parkingtigers posted:I repeat the question. Mark 11:12-14 - The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.
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Oct 8, 2022 19:36
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XboxPants posted:Either our premise is wrong and she's actually mean, or we have to re-examine our expectations of her (that it's reasonable that she expects to maintain emotional control at all times). I don't know that she should be expected to maintain perfect control of all her emotions at all times, but she definitely does need to be more aware of her anger specifically and the sheer damage she is capable of causing with even a casual gesture just in general because she's almost certainly didn't want to destroy the room and endanger a load of bystanders when she smashed the TVs. It does also seem like maybe she lost control of herself in a He-Hulk way for a few seconds afterwards too, to say that her immediate concern was "find the shitheel who did this" and not "get my family out of a new destabilized building" and that she only realized how far she had gone when she saw Damage Control pointing guns at her. I basically agree with you though, and was more speaking to Bar Ran Dun's arguments because I don't think the context supports the idea that this is supposed to be about society dismissing women's emotions or telling them not to let them show or just to not have them. It kind of runs counter to the idea of a Hulk to try and include that message, because controlling emotions and being aware of the sheer damage that lashing out can cause is an essential part of being a Hulk, no matter if it's a He-Hulk or a She-Hulk. Which is a thing Bruce was trying to teach Jen in the first episode, badly or otherwise, and which yeah, she basically dismissed as not important because she didn't want to be a Hulk, didn't want to have to spend a long time learning something she thought she was already sufficient in control of anyway (and, to be fair, had decent evidence suggesting that and Bruce didn't provide any good counter evidence) and she just didn't want to change her life in any way to accommodate being a Hulk because it was not a thing she wanted. She's actually come to like being She-Hulk since then, but never actually spent time learning what it means as Bruce wanted to teach her so her causing unintentional harm even in the best of cases (which the carpark basically was, since there was no-one but Daredevil around); and the end of the episode gala is definitely not the best of cases any more. Everyone posted:Jesus is a cool guy. He'll heal your sickness and maybe even bring you back to life. But he likes his figs. And if he's hungry you better have some if you're a plant. Basically in the MCU Groot needs to lay in a supply of figs in case of the Second Coming. So what you're saying is "Don't let Jesus go hungry, you wouldn't like him when he's hungry"?
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Oct 8, 2022 19:49
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Just need to keep a supply of Snickers around
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Oct 8, 2022 19:50
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Parkingtigers posted:I repeat the question. What happens when society fails fulfill the needs of the marginal or oppressed?
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Oct 8, 2022 19:53
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tsob posted:. So comparing her anger to those examples is a bit hollow, since those are examples of women specifically hurting people they intended to hurt and not causing incidental damage or pain by striking out in a justifiable manner. Oh man you should check how those revolutions eventually turned out. Everybody got hurt.
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Oct 8, 2022 19:56
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This is a weird derail but the Fig tree illustrated the nation of Israel. Outwardly it looked good, like there should be (spiritual) fruitage there. But the tree and the nation were barren and so cursed. The show has been good but I wonder how much random damage Jen is doing and is she paying for any of it. Even on a lawyer's salary it's got to build up. Last week she ripped up the tile where the wedding reception was and this week severe damage to a parking lot.
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Oct 8, 2022 19:59
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Oh man you should check how those revolutions eventually turned out. Everybody got hurt. And in most cases, someone involved wanted to hurt everybody who got hurt. I'm sure there was some unintentional harm, but it wasn't the norm. Which it is in the end of the latest episode of She-Hulk.
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Oct 8, 2022 20:23
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Bar Ran Dun posted:In the New Testament in Mark the cursing of the fig tree and the clearing of the temple are back to back because they’re about the same thing. As a heathen Jew, thank you for this fun interlude. I had no idea Jesus was such a petty bitch sometimes hahaha. Goes over to a random fig tree in the wrong season, sees no figs, curses the plant with the full power of the Lord because he's hungry and mad. Bar Ran Dun posted:God forbid she do some property damages though. Well yeah, this is America after all.
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Oct 8, 2022 20:26
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Phenotype posted:As a heathen Jew, thank you for this fun interlude. I had no idea Jesus was such a petty bitch sometimes hahaha. Goes over to a random fig tree in the wrong season, sees no figs, curses the plant with the full power of the Lord because he's hungry and mad. fuckin fig tree ate my dollar :kicks:
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Oct 8, 2022 20:48
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What the gently caress is this thread? The fact the cop don't care about the actual perpetrators and only the victim was pretty telling.
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Oct 8, 2022 21:01
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tsob posted:I saw someone refer to it not as a walk of shame, since there's nothing in what happened to be shamed about, but as the "stride of pride" i.e. a hookup where both parties enjoyed themselves and were satisfied the morning after with whatever comes next. But yeah, pretty fun moment. I think maybe Nikki's comment to Jen when she walks in about it or the credits picture of Nikki snapping a photo are pretty up there too, though. That's a joke from 30 Rock in 2007.
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Oct 8, 2022 21:10
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tsob posted:And in most cases, someone involved wanted to hurt everybody who got hurt. I'm sure there was some unintentional harm, but it wasn't the norm. Which it is in the end of the latest episode of She-Hulk. Somebody involved in the She Hulk story wants people to get hurt to. Look at the whole thing not just the protagonist in isolation.
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Oct 8, 2022 21:11
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twistedmentat posted:What the gently caress is this thread? How are people who just arrived and thus weren't in the room and don't know what happened supposed to know She-Hulk is the victim, out of curiosity? They may be working with HulkKing and actually aware of his plan, and if so we'll find out next week, but chances are HulkKing (or one of his goons) just tipped them off to arrive and not let them know why She-Hulk would be angry. Additionally, should Damage Control just ignore that she's structurally compromised the building and endangered everyone in it or near it just because she is a victim of a crime too, for that matter? Does being a victim of one crime give you carte blanche to commit any crime you want? Bar Ran Dun posted:Somebody involved in the She Hulk story wants people to get hurt to. Look at the whole thing not just the protagonist in isolation. Which doesn't absolve her of endangering and/or hurting people. At which point I'd ask you to take your own advise, because from my perspective you are the one looking at the protagonist in isolation rather than the bigger picture. Or at the very least looking at the events through one very narrow lens, and not seeing or caring about anything outside that lens i.e. Jen's anger is justified, therefor gently caress anyone or anything that gets hurt until she's dealt with the people who hurt her in whatever way she specifically chooses; and no law can or should inhibit how she wants to deal with them. tsob fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 21:15
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The episode was definitely showing that Jen was being irresponsible and not in control due to destroying the entire car park to stop Daredevil, and it foreshadowed what the villains could "get her on," her Hulk lack of control and holding back getting her in actual trouble. You as a regular person cant start throwing stuff around in your office wildly because someone screwed you over, and thats why kids are taught that tantrums aren't proper ways to express your anger, and you *learn* to control yourself before you get to that spot. Bruce tried to teach her at the beginning to control it, but she thought she had it under control kind of cockily, until someone properly triggered her. Darko fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 22:11
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Darko posted:Bruce tried to teach her at the beginning to control it, but she thought she had it under comtrol kind of cockily, until someone properly triggered her.
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Oct 8, 2022 22:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:I mean I'm glad that they went back to that, but it doesn't come up again until right before the finale which is a bit annoying Originally the first episode was meant to be one of the last three
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Oct 8, 2022 22:37
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It's also only something that can be an issue if and when she is a Hulk, which requires that she start liking to be a Hulk really. Which she wasn't for several episodes, so it wasn't really an issue for her because she only became the She-Hulk as and when absolutely necessary.
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Oct 8, 2022 22:57
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I would love to see a scene with a court battle with She Hulk representing herself (or with Murdock) against all the people she's inadvertedly affected, like the people who own the parking lot, the owners of the car, the awards and wedding venue, etc. You could have a couple of comedy options like Leapfrog and goons suing them for unprovoked injuries and vigilantism. I'm sure the show would rather just wash over that, but it would be fun and in the spirit of the show.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:28
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