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galagazombie posted:Once again the problem with Snoke is that he’s way too important to the story to just get rid of despite being a lame Sheev ripoff who deserves to be ignored. Somehow this loser completely undid the entire OT and defeated all the original characters. Palpatine never had to justify undoing every previous movie or changing the status quo since he was the status quo. Snoke on the other hand is explicitly stated in the story as the cause behind everything being the opposite from the last movie. They did a ton of that themselves though, Snoke’s big triumph is taking advantage of Kylo Ren’s disillusionment with the Jedi. And this is all but already spelled out in TFA, the three main heroes are so rocked by their collective failure to raise a son correctly they all regress and split up to opposite ends of the galaxy, letting Snoke run rampant. TLJ as pointed out just follows directly from that really straightforward logic rather than make up some super secret magic reason they all suck. Ren becoming the singular villain and everyone having to deal with that is better than chickening out and going “actually and even more magical space wizard caused it all!”
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Oct 8, 2022 03:49
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TLJ would have been interesting if Rey actually accepted Kylo's offer to co-run the Empire. It seemed really dumb not to. Even if you're a totally perfect good guy, at least you can tell them to stop loving shooting at your friends for a few hours for them to get away or something, or remake the Empire into something better if you're willing to stick it out long-term. Like they have to believe at some point that you can make peace with these guys, or otherwise you have an endless war that doesn't stop until every single one of them is a corpse? What is the loving plan to defeat the Empire? Is getting handed the entire thing not good enough - we need to wait for them build yet another Death Star ripoff and blow it up? I always read how subversive and surprising TLJ is but I just never could see it? Snoke getting killed early was a surprise, I guess, but it doesn't really matter because nothing actually changes - Kylo doesn't do anything differently with the Empire under his control. Luke giving up on being a Jedi doesn't lead to anything interesting, he still comes back to help the Rebels but he does it as a lame ghost which just felt dumber than having him ride into the rescue on his X-wing. He sacrifices his life using his Super Ghost Power so everyone had an extra minute to go hide in a loving bunker that they leave anyway? Anyway, I'm glad Andor is capable of actually surprising me. I still deep down believe it will ultimately poo poo the bed like all the other TV series but here's hoping it doesn't. Mr. Grapes! fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Oct 8, 2022 |
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Oct 8, 2022 06:02
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Mr. Grapes! posted:TLJ would have been interesting if Rey actually accepted Kylo's offer to co-run the Empire. It seemed really dumb not to. Even if you're a totally perfect good guy, at least you can tell them to stop loving shooting at your friends for a few hours for them to get away or something, or remake the Empire into something better if you're willing to stick it out long-term. They even had the moment in the elevator where they had mutual "I foresaw you would join me" prophecies, so it would make story sense for Rey to accept his offer even if it's only temporary or a ruse for something else.
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Oct 8, 2022 07:02
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Snoke should have turned out to be Luke’s ex-lover.
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Oct 8, 2022 07:53
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And 18 feet tall.
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Oct 8, 2022 07:53
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Robot Style posted:They even had the moment in the elevator where they had mutual "I foresaw you would join me" prophecies, so it would make story sense for Rey to accept his offer even if it's only temporary or a ruse for something else. I mean hell, make that the finale of the movie- it sure as hell feels like it should be- and have that be your ESB downer ending where an unstable power couple of Force prodigies are ready to rule the galaxy as husband and wife, and then you can have some real crazy drama in the finale. Mind you, that might require some actual follow-through on moral ambiguity and also giving characters other than Finn and Rey actual things to do.
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Oct 8, 2022 08:34
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Sure, JJ handed Rian a carbon copy of Palpatine, but I'm sure there were things you could do with the most influential person and Sith lord in the galaxy other than 'nothing at all'. We don't even get a good explanation of how he seduced Kylo to his side.
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Oct 8, 2022 08:37
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Did people in 1980 think Palpatine was an 18 foot tall giant because of his hologram? Or did social media theory videos really make everyone that much dumber?
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Oct 8, 2022 11:08
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Spermando posted:Sure, JJ handed Rian a carbon copy of Palpatine, but I'm sure there were things you could do with the most influential person and Sith lord in the galaxy other than 'nothing at all'. We don't even get a good explanation of how he seduced Kylo to his side. I honestly can't think of anything that wouldn't be dumb as hell. Being too much Palpatine is the issue. Make him Plaguis or someine from the past is dumb. Some new random dude that pops up is dumb too. It was a bad idea, and one of many TFA had. New trilogy should mean a new kind of threat. galagazombie posted:Did people in 1980 think Palpatine was an 18 foot tall giant because of his hologram? Or did social media theory videos really make everyone that much dumber? I think the idea of him being a new, huge alien species was the only interesting thing about him, so people ran with it in hope of it.
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Oct 8, 2022 12:26
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galagazombie posted:Did people in 1980 think Palpatine was an 18 foot tall giant because of his hologram? Or did social media theory videos really make everyone that much dumber? He had the weird-rear end baboon eyes in 1980 so they might have thought that. I like TLJ but they really should've gone with a version of Lucas's original treatment for the sequels, where the struggle was putting together a New Republic while dealing with guerilla criminal strikes run by underworld boss Maul. There's no real connective tissue between 6 and 7 like there was between 3 and 4, it just rushes into trying to replicate the most "marketable" elements of Star Wars regardless of costs to storytelling. Needs an evil empire fighting heroic rebels, needs Sith, needs a tragic villain with a chance of redemption, needs Imperial wunderwaffels. It's trying to tell the same kind of story as 4-6 but by committee on rushed time frames
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Oct 8, 2022 12:47
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A viewpoint that I never considered regarding Snoke/Palpatine but became aware of thanks to my son. It’s impossible to do an Emperor introduction like in the OT. For the simple reason that the PT exists. My son views the first 6 movies as the story of Anakin but also the story of Palpatine. To him Palpatine didn’t pop into existence in ESB, he saw Palpatine introduce himself, rise to power, make references to his teacher and ultimately his own downfall. As such, he expects there to be more. Snoke always needed more than to just exist, even throwaway lines like a confrontation between him and Luke or Ben or even a possible disdain for Palpatine. Anything that anchors him to the universe. Unless they greatly expanded the time frame that is.
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Oct 8, 2022 12:55
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snoke being plagueis could've been interesting but they'd probably have messed it up too
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Oct 8, 2022 12:58
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Darth TNT posted:A viewpoint that I never considered regarding Snoke/Palpatine but became aware of thanks to my son. It’s impossible to do an Emperor introduction like in the OT. For the simple reason that the PT exists. This was the reason Kennedy wanted Palpatine back in Episode 9, specifically to give the idea that they were still telling one story. Beyond just being an unsatisfying film, I think it was far too late to try and tie those things together.
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Oct 8, 2022 13:01
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Darth TNT posted:A viewpoint that I never considered regarding Snoke/Palpatine but became aware of thanks to my son. It’s impossible to do an Emperor introduction like in the OT. For the simple reason that the PT exists. This is exactly why I was hoping he'd really be 20 feet tall at first and was let down when it soon becomes more obvious it's a hologram. Like it'd be SOMETHING.
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Oct 8, 2022 16:28
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And he is blaming Luke Skywalker for the Force experiment that made him freakishly tall. Original name for the First Order was supposed to be Tall Order.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:22
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TLJ had a lot of 'subverting expectations' that was really just complete cop-outs, though that's been extensively discussed already to say the least. And just the usual modern Hollywood problem that they refuse to commit to having anything remotely fantastic that isn't immediately and thoroughly undermined to try to stop it from having any pathos.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:04
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Robot Style posted:They even had the moment in the elevator where they had mutual "I foresaw you would join me" prophecies, so it would make story sense for Rey to accept his offer even if it's only temporary or a ruse for something else. I had absolutely loved the movie up until this point, but everything after completely reversed my feelings about it until I left the theater in disgust, and sold all of my Star Wars books and merchandise shortly thereafter. The end of that movie is where Star Wars stopped being an awesome fictional universe full of potential untold stories and just became "some brand" to me.
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Oct 8, 2022 18:35
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It's a testament to Adam Driver's acting prowess that Kylo tries to convince Rey to become his trophy wife using negging tactics straight out of a PUA youtube video, and years later people are still angry at her for turning him down
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Oct 8, 2022 18:42
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Darko posted:I honestly can't think of anything that wouldn't be dumb as hell. Being too much Palpatine is the issue. Make him Plaguis or someine from the past is dumb. Some new random dude that pops up is dumb too. It was a bad idea, and one of many TFA had. New trilogy should mean a new kind of threat. one thing I enjoyed about Trevorrow's Ep IX script is that his solution for Snoke being dead is to just have Kylo Ren meet another completely random super powerful dark side lord on a random planet, learn some new dark side thing from him and then kill him in the same scene, like he was doing a Snoke speedrun or something
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Oct 8, 2022 19:13
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Wolfsheim posted:one thing I enjoyed about Trevorrow's Ep IX script is that his solution for Snoke being dead is to just have Kylo Ren meet another completely random super powerful dark side lord on a random planet, learn some new dark side thing from him and then kill him in the same scene, like he was doing a Snoke speedrun or something Second half of Ep IX: Kylo kills Snokes quicker and quicker until he hacks his way through a sea of Snokes like Jet Li at the end of The One.
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Oct 8, 2022 19:29
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Prophet of Nixon posted:I had absolutely loved the movie up until this point, but everything after completely reversed my feelings about it until I left the theater in disgust, and sold all of my Star Wars books and merchandise shortly thereafter. The end of that movie is where Star Wars stopped being an awesome fictional universe full of potential untold stories and just became "some brand" to me. Would you say Star Wars was ruined forever?
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Oct 8, 2022 19:45
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Neo Rasa posted:This is exactly why I was hoping he'd really be 20 feet tall at first and was let down when it soon becomes more obvious it's a hologram. Like it'd be SOMETHING. The odd thing is that Snoke actually IS a giant, just more in the 9-10 feet tall range rather than 20. And like other people I would have liked TLJ more if it actually did set up new stories to tell like some people think it did, rather than ending with a dark force user from the skywalker family leading an imperial army against a plucky group of rebels on the millennium falcon, who have a neophyte force user with a personal connection to the evil skywalker. Heard that one before.
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Oct 8, 2022 20:52
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garycoleisgod posted:The odd thing is that Snoke actually IS a giant, just more in the 9-10 feet tall range rather than 20. He also spends the vast majority of his scenes sitting down and far away from other characters, it's as if they wanted him to be giant but also for people to not notice
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Oct 8, 2022 22:11
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I wonder if JJ wanted the option for him to be giant. I don't know much of the EU but I do know there was a prominent extragalactic alien force who were immune to the force. Having somebody force immun as the big bad of the ST might have been a good idea. Or at least the big boss.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:35
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Smoke being a giant should have led to the one callback everyone was really waiting for: defeating him by tying his legs together with a cable attached to a speeder.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:58
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Robot Style posted:They even had the moment in the elevator where they had mutual "I foresaw you would join me" prophecies, so it would make story sense for Rey to accept his offer even if it's only temporary or a ruse for something else. am i the only one who thought that was obviously that they'd both seen them fighting the red guards and assumed the other had joined them for their own reasons? kylo sees rey fighting snoke's guards and goes, ah, she's joined me in taking over. rey sees kylo fighting snoke's guards and goes, ah, he's turned good.
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Oct 9, 2022 02:03
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General Battuta posted:Would you say Star Wars was ruined forever? I dunno about forever, I've softened on it a bit since then. I still like seeing toys of original movie and especially prequel spaceships, and I've been meaning to replay Dark Forces now that there's a source port for it. Haven't watched any of the movies or anything since though. Edit: I feel like the sequel trilogy is ruined forever and can't really be rehabilitated in any way though. There's just nothing really there to like. Each movie just sabotages itself and squanders any of its own potential, and there's nothing coherent between them either.
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Oct 9, 2022 02:14
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Horizon Burning posted:am i the only one who thought that was obviously that they'd both seen them fighting the red guards and assumed the other had joined them for their own reasons? kylo sees rey fighting snoke's guards and goes, ah, she's joined me in taking over. rey sees kylo fighting snoke's guards and goes, ah, he's turned good. Rey saw that, Kylo didn't see the future. quote:Because of what I saw, I know that when the moment comes you'll be the one to turn. You'll stand with me. Rey, I saw who your parents are.
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Oct 9, 2022 02:34
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Well rip me i guess
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Oct 9, 2022 04:43
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Snoke should have been either really big or really small.
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Oct 9, 2022 06:13
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Angry Salami posted:Snoke should have been either really big or really small. The Lego Skywalker Saga did that routine, chipmunk voice and all (also probably the best way to experience the Sequel Trilogy)
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Oct 9, 2022 06:15
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I’ve always wondered if Max Von Sydow was or originally hired to play the role that eventually became Snoke before either a script change or concerns about his health relegated him to a cameo and gave us the big dumb monster man we ended up with. Making Snoke a Palpatine knock-off was a big mistake out of the gate, the subversive move is to make Reb’s mentor someone with the appearance and demeanor of a kindly old man. You know, someone who could plausibly convince anyone else that he has good intentions.
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Oct 9, 2022 06:21
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General Dog posted:Making Snoke a Palpatine knock-off was a big mistake out of the gate, the subversive move is to make Reb’s mentor someone with the appearance and demeanor of a kindly old man. You know, someone who could plausibly convince anyone else that he has good intentions. Maybe instead of doing space satanists yet again, They should have done space nihilists like Kreia in KotOR II?Not exactly like her obviously, since that game used the incorrect EU definition of balance and such. And not actually “nihilist” since the force is scientific fact and their whole thing would be wanting to destroy it. But something like some anti-force cult that doesn’t like that the force keeps sending chosen ones to stop evil empires. Like they’re hardcore social darwinists who believe the only reason they’re not in charge is the force giving undeserved super powers to the “inferior”.
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Oct 9, 2022 07:04
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Angry Salami posted:Snoke should have been either really big or really small. They were definitely going for a 'Dark Side Yoda' thing, but, well.
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Oct 9, 2022 07:49
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Given the focus in the sequels on the love of star wars there was clearly a missed opportunity to make the villains not love star wars so that mindset could be triumphed over by the heroes. But I suppose the sequels can’t even fathom that something other than love of star wars is possible, so the villains adore it too
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Oct 9, 2022 08:24
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General Dog posted:I’ve always wondered if Max Von Sydow was or originally hired to play the role that eventually became Snoke before either a script change or concerns about his health relegated him to a cameo and gave us the big dumb monster man we ended up with. Andy Serkis and Max von Sydow were both announced as being in the cast at the same time (and rumors about the casting of both surfaced shortly before) but all the way back in June 2013, there were some casting breakdowns released for the Michael Arndt version of the script, including one that was for a "70-something male, with strong opinions and tough demeanor". At the time a lot of people assumed this was for the villain, and that Max von Sydow would be playing the role when he was announced as part of the cast. Looking at the production timeline of the movie presented in the concept art book for the movie, it looks like the tough 70-something male character was actually someone who eventually evolved into Unkar Plutt. In the April 2013 draft of the script, Rey worked for "an elderly father figure, a former Republic pilot". Whenever rumors about von Sydow's character surfaced that weren't about him playing the villain, they were based on this version of his character, which some sources said was an old cyborg named Montross (a character who originally featured as the third member of the Falcon's crew in the second draft of A New Hope). There were also rumors that he was playing an elderly Boba Fett, but I have no idea how people arrived there. So it seems that von Sydow originally had a larger role in the movie, and it's possible that the Lor San Tekka role was created for him when his original role as Rey's guardian was written out, but they still wanted to keep him in the movie. As for Snoke, there's not much information out there about his design process or place in the story (the making-of books for the movies were very spoiler conscious), but we know that the role of "evil mentor" was originally going to be Darth Maul in Lucas' version of the story, and only became Palpatine 2.0 when Abrams came on board. Initially Abrams wanted him to feel like a Hammer horror movie, and there's some concept art that depicts him as literally just Boris Karloff . Abrams didn't want him to look "old and decrepit, like the Emperor" though, so they eventually moved away from that and instead had the idea that he might look almost like a marble statue - someone that had been very beautiful once, but had been twisted and corrupted by the Dark Side (which also might be why they made him so huge and, well, statuesque). The maquette they made definitely has some of that look, but once they actually got to the stage of building and rendering the character, I think they may have run into the "this looks too CG" problem, and in the course of adding more and more detail to him to make him feel more realistic, they just made him look old and decrepit, like the Emperor. Since the book is so sparse on details about the character though, it doesn't mention whether the character was ever intended to be portrayed by an actor in a costume, or if it was always intended to be a CG character. I think once they decided to make him feel like a giant marble statue (and have the hologram reveal gag at the end of his first scene), he had to be CG. Primarily because if you look at the scenes Snoke's in (even after he's revealed to be a hologram), he's animated like he's a giant. In order to sell that he's actually in the room with them prior to the reveal, his movements are slow and weighty, and so are his cloth simulations. If they'd just filmed an actor, even if they matched the perspective to make him appear bigger, he'd still move incorrectly for something that large. If you look at Snoke in The Last Jedi, his movements are quicker, and more appropriate for someone who's only 7 feet tall. Using the Rancor as an example, they filmed the puppet at 72 fps to make its movements slow enough to register to an audience as "huge creature", and would have to do something similar for a live-action Snoke - with the big hurdle being, how do you get a good performance out of an actor when they have to do all their lines at 3x speed? The only realistic way around it is to make him CG.
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Oct 9, 2022 08:39
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A marble statue, eh? Snoke should’ve been a Prometheus engineer, no explanation. Did anyone here ever watch the Italian Star Wars fan film where a bunch of Jedi go to an HR Giger spaceship and fight a bunch of Voldos from soul caliber? poo poo was pretty wild man
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Oct 9, 2022 19:46
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https://twitter.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1579159993164525569 https://twitter.com/pabl0hidalgo/status/1579167089759113216
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Oct 9, 2022 19:50
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Vinylshadow posted:
That's what I'm sayin. Oh what a dream it would be to have a Katarn movie with Bale taking on the role 
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Oct 9, 2022 19:54
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Christian Bale in a mockumentary of the making of a Kyle katarn movie, just chain-smoking and making GBS threads on Star Wars nonstop.
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Oct 9, 2022 21:18
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