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Arist posted:Those songs (plus Brand New Days) are the only good things about it though Does The Answer get credit for the dope intro cinematic to FES? That's definitely up there in SMT intros. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGjPut-k-7U
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Oct 9, 2022 22:49
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NikkolasKing posted:What's #1? Battle for Everyone's Souls? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o01IIevhAm4 Edit: I know it only counts as a final boss theme if you gently caress up, but The Almighty deserves an honorable mention. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4DKTAKE03g girl dick energy fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Oct 9, 2022 |
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Oct 9, 2022 22:52
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ImpAtom posted:The major thing there is P3/4 were PS2 games. PS2 is basically the last gasp before things really started to balloon. The thing is I don't see why the Persona times have started to balloon. The writing is semi-formulaic in the best way; the arcana structure means you know how many characters you need and have a good way to write their character arcs. It's not the art; the character 3d art work is relatively simplistic with there not even being enough of an animation budget to go through doors. And the facial animations are 2d with excellent (but again) simple cutaway. The Personas have already been updated and are mostly shared between both Persona and SMT games - and the attack animations aren't really that much. Persona feels like one of those games that looks great on a low budget - but if it's not the writing, not the art, and probably not the mechanics either then what does take so long?
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Oct 9, 2022 23:09
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I think the key with each Persona game is that Personas always exist but there needs to be some significant supernatural catalyst to bring them out while usually involves a significant supernatural presence intruding on the real world. In Persona 1 it's the DEVA System and Nyarlathotep effective turning the 'real' world into a supernatural world, in Persona 2 it was Nyarlathotep turning the city into a place where Rumors come true. P3 and 4 basically lock things off into their own separate worlds while Persona 5 has effectively a world atop a world that you can only enter in certain circumstances. Each one is effectively a 'game board' for the forces playing their current game. In each case the characters get the ability to summon Persona by being dragged into that game in some fashion, usually coinciding with some sort of totem that allows them to draw forth their power, but they still need to be in a position where that supernatural magic exists to do so remotely easily. It was just in P1/P2 the 'supernatural worlds' had more overlap with the normal world from the start because the characters involved had good reason to have a 'normal' world. (And even then it's worth noting that only the TV world is largely different from the real world, both the Metaverse and Midnight Hour are 90% similar except for some missing things, sort of like what happened with Mikage-cho.) As far as we're shown though Persona always exist within a person in some form or another but you're not accessing them without very specific situations. This is either getting involved with a god-game in some form or through the power of Science!!! In the latter case though it rarely seems to end well. Persona 1, 3 and 5 all basically have things go to poo poo because scientists had figured out this stuff existed but their actual attempts to use it were either horrific atrocities or utter failures and Persona 2 still carries on some of P1's stuff. That Science!!! also allows some 'bridging' of the gap between the supernatural and real worlds but every single time it ends up being fuckin' horrific because it either invites some malicious entity to play a game, does unbelievable damage to the subjects involved, breaks reality, or all of the above. As near as we're shown the reason for the Evokers is less that they are strictly necessary to summon Persona but that they are necessary to summon Persona within the specific confines of Persona 3's Midnight Hour because it is a world of Death, so Evokers make it easier.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:18
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Don't forget that Persona 3 makes the ability to use a Persona into UR a wizzurd Harry, which is one of the reasons I dislike its conception of it.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:19
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The twist is that the P3 crew didn't need the Evokers to summon their Personas, Ikutski just told them they did, as a joke.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:22
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Neeksy posted:Don't forget that Persona 3 makes the ability to use a Persona into UR a wizzurd Harry, which is one of the reasons I dislike its conception of it. It's much, much more interesting if anyone can have the potential, yeah. Akihiko just showing up and throwing Junpei onto your team because he's one of the only people nearby who can use a Persona is a neat dynamic for that game, but I prefer the game giving it a sense of circumstance. P4 and P5 maybe overly belabor the process of joining the team, but I like that, honestly. It makes it feel more earned and special. P3's way ends up feeling pretty weak in that regard.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:25
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PS1 Pandora's Theme is highly underrated https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUjcsNDVCLc
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Oct 9, 2022 23:28
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neonchameleon posted:The thing is I don't see why the Persona times have started to balloon. The writing is semi-formulaic in the best way; the arcana structure means you know how many characters you need and have a good way to write their character arcs. It's not the art; the character 3d art work is relatively simplistic with there not even being enough of an animation budget to go through doors. And the facial animations are 2d with excellent (but again) simple cutaway. The Personas have already been updated and are mostly shared between both Persona and SMT games - and the attack animations aren't really that much. Persona feels like one of those games that looks great on a low budget - but if it's not the writing, not the art, and probably not the mechanics either then what does take so long? You're kind of devaluing the evolution of everything there I think. Persona 5 is carried by a strong art style but it still is a tremendous step up from Persona 3 and 4's largely static cutscenes. They're able to do more complex character expression and animations even discounting the strong art design and with that includes lengthier more directed cutscenes of which P5 has quite a number. Even the basic standing around stuff tends to involve more character motion and choreography than P4 or 3. And the strong art design does require a lot of effort to make work coherently over the course of a game. Likewise dungeon design changes. Persona 3 was almost exclusively randomized basic floors and Persona 4 was just slightly different from that. Persona 5 has Mementos which fills the same role but then a series of custom-build dungeons using a large number of unique assets which actually have to be designed, put together, and tested. That requires a lot more time, especially working with assets you expect to be used in HD. Similarly even if you know where a character's arc is going to go, there's a difference between writing the outline and writing the arc. For all its flaws writing a game like Persona is a monumental undertaking and only becomes moreso the more things you add to it. Keep in mind writing isn't just the main arcs. Every NPC and every side thing needs to be written as well. There is an obscene amount of dialogue in any given JRPG and Persona usually requires 2-3 different responses every time the protagonist can speak. Like you can shittalk Persona's writing pretty easily but it isn't easy to do, and the fact that for all its flaws people largely come away from the game loving the characters shows that they're doing at least something right. Likewise, yes, mechanics are another thing that requires an absurd amount of development time. Even if you're just doing a bare-rear end SMT combat system you still need to do a ton of basic planning to make the flow of combat something that people continue to find fun. P5 gets more complex and adds like a dozen different bonus mechanics which the player may or may not have at any given time, all of which need to be implemented and then tested. Persona trends to the side of too easy but even 'too easy' still demands at least some attention to keep the flow of too easy in a fun place.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:38
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I think the issue might be that the latter Personas have a far more modular storytelling concept, which means that while the player guides the advancement of all the subplots via strategizing time or just their own interests in a character, it can also mean having less control as a writer over the pacing and development of the overall themes and story, sacrificing that for more player 'freedom'.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:43
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Neeksy posted:I think the issue might be that the latter Personas have a far more modular storytelling concept, which means that while the player guides the advancement of all the subplots via strategizing time or just their own interests in a character, it can also mean having less control as a writer over the pacing and development of the overall themes and story, sacrificing that for more player 'freedom'. This is absolutely true and a tough thing to write around. P3 was written pretty bluntly around the idea of your party members being their own people. They were AI controlled, you couldn't even hang out with half of them, and their arcs largely developed over the course of the game. However Persona 4 made it clear that people much preferred being able to interact with characters on their own clock and wanted all of the party members to be social links, enough they backported that to P3P. The end result however is that they really can't tie a character's emotional growth into the main story. They can at best time lock certain events until past certain plot beats but they can't assume that any given character is at a certain emotional climax by the time a certain plot beat happens. They could probably do more dialogue that reflects the social link progress someone has but even that adds a huge amount of extra writing. But as it stands "I get to have adventures and hang out with my friends" is one of the big draws of Persona now and you can't really get around it.
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Oct 9, 2022 23:58
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Seems to me that putting more date-based locks before you can progress a teammate's social link would be the least worst solution.
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Oct 10, 2022 00:28
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Tired Moritz posted:I will gladly accept the answer for giving us heartful cry and the 2nd best final boss theme of persona history Heartful Cry was the best battle music out of the P3 generation, but the best song in the OST is still Memories of the City. That poo poo playing during the last month while the whole city is starting to lose it/shut down almost singlehandedly makes P3's end game my favorite out of 3/4/5. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aJ6v40BZCQ I will also say that despite Marie being kind of a dump of an addition to P4G, her version of I'll Face Myself is loving awesome. Love those violins! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq2iJuenPg0
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Oct 10, 2022 00:28
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Blue Labrador posted:Does The Answer get credit for the dope intro cinematic to FES? That's definitely up there in SMT intros. this was so dope and is probably the best intro ever imo. Got me into the series.
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Oct 10, 2022 02:50
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I want there to be a party member in Persona 6 who goes into Persona Land and instantly awakens because they are just a chill and well-adjusted person.
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Oct 10, 2022 12:49
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A couple easy thoughts I have on this hypothetical P3 remake: !. 2020s Liam O'Brien is SOOOOO much better than he was in 2005 or whatever. I'd love to see him redub lines for Akihiko. 2. Obviously someone else would voice Junpei. Not sure who.
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Oct 10, 2022 12:57
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Get JYB to do it, so it’s even funnier that they swap in 4.
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Oct 10, 2022 17:00
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YaketySass posted:Seems to me that putting more date-based locks before you can progress a teammate's social link would be the least worst solution. The best solution would be to record a number of lines twice and choose which to play based on whether the social link has passed a given threshold.
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Oct 10, 2022 17:33
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neonchameleon posted:The best solution would be to record a number of lines twice and choose which to play based on whether the social link has passed a given threshold. That would be ideal but also incredibly loving expensive
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Oct 10, 2022 17:40
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Replaying persona 4 golden ahead of royal being released on the PC and the writing has definitely slipped a gear for me since the last time i played. The family stuff is well done and holds up, but like the majority of the group stuff ends up just being long setups to Yosuke and teddie perv out "comedy relief". If it was just teddy and they had to put up with it begrudgingly (and base the jokes in a "gently caress you teddie" kind of way) to enter and exit tv world I'd understand, but having the women of the group just shrug off sexual harassment from 2 other members constantly really just seems lazy and gross. Do they carry that kind of stuff over to 5 with the writing?
Jimlit fucked around with this message at 17:44 on Oct 10, 2022 |
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Oct 10, 2022 17:41
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Jimlit posted:Replaying persona 4 golden ahead of royal being released on the PC and the writing has definitely slipped a gear for me since the last time i played. The family stuff is well done and holds up, but like the majority of the group stuff ends up just being long setups to Yosuke and teddie perv out "comedy relief". If it was just teddy and they had to put up with it begrudgingly (and base the jokes in a "gently caress you teddie" kind of way) to enter and exit tv world I'd understand, but having the women of the group just shrug off sexual harassment from 2 other members constantly really just seems lazy and gross. Do they carry that kind of stuff over to 5 with the writing? There's less harassment directly from the party members (mostly the Teddy equivalent being in love with Ann but not really perving on her) but sadly the attitude still exists. The most infamous example is Ann being at the centre of a plot about sexual harassment and the trauma it causes, and next arc she's pressured into posing naked for plot reasons.
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Oct 10, 2022 17:50
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Jimlit posted:Replaying persona 4 golden ahead of royal being released on the PC and the writing has definitely slipped a gear for me since the last time i played. The family stuff is well done and holds up, but like the majority of the group stuff ends up just being long setups to Yosuke and teddie perv out "comedy relief". If it was just teddy and they had to put up with it begrudgingly to enter and exit tv world I'd understand, but having the women of the group just shrug off sexual harassment from 2 other members constantly really just seems lazy and gross. Do they carry that kind of stuff over to 5 with the writing? Yes and no. They genuinely do get better about it but Ryuji is still a creep sometime and there are a ton of lovely comments directed at the female cast from the villains. It is treated super lovely but still very present. Yusuke also has a real crappy thing in his introduction that is treated as a joke but is still poo poo. Unfortunately a big step backwards is that almost every adult woman in the game is willing to sleep with a teenage boy which is very ew. Edit: like 90% of the worst stuff is centered around Ann which really sucks because her plot was based around how she was sexually harassed. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Oct 10, 2022 |
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Oct 10, 2022 17:54
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ImpAtom posted:Unfortunately a big step backwards is that almost every adult woman in the game is willing to sleep with a teenage boy which is very ew. It's really weird how 5 went so hard on that when as I recall in 4 what looked like was going to happen was just a fake out with the Devil contact and in 3 when the teacher found out that it was the MC she nearly collapsed in on herself like a dying star in embarrassment.
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Oct 10, 2022 18:11
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Dawgstar posted:It's really weird how 5 went so hard on that when as I recall in 4 what looked like was going to happen was just a fake out with the Devil contact and in 3 when the teacher found out that it was the MC she nearly collapsed in on herself like a dying star in embarrassment. The kindest interpretation is 'we know adults play this game and may view the protagonist as their avatar despite their stated age so these are options for the (heterosexual male) older players " The more likely is 'we wanted to make every lady dateable and didnt give it a ton of thought' The almost as likely is that one South Park gif of the guy saying Nice because some people view sleeping with children as okay as long as it is a hot older lady
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Oct 10, 2022 18:39
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ImpAtom posted:The almost as likely is that one South Park gif of the guy saying Nice because some people view sleeping with children as okay as long as it is a hot older lady It's this. Also...that was the whole episode, not just a one shot gif-able line.
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Oct 10, 2022 18:55
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Dawgstar posted:It's really weird how 5 went so hard on that when as I recall in 4 what looked like was going to happen was just a fake out with the Devil contact and in 3 when the teacher found out that it was the MC she nearly collapsed in on herself like a dying star in embarrassment. If you pick the wrong options when the Nurse hits on you, it's pretty strongly implied she and Yu do have sex. Somebody once tried to tell me no it wasn't so when I replayed Golden last year or so I took screenshots and it seems pretty blatant and undeniable     You're supposed to turn her down to get the most S Link points but it's still in the route.
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Oct 10, 2022 18:56
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Something that really doesn't help is that Morgana's very badly translated. Apparently in the Japanese he's positively archaic; in the English he should be using thee and thou and other such speech patterns and generally behaving like someone who's read too many stories about knights. What actually happens is that he refers to Ann (and only Ann) as "Lady Ann" which comes off as a little creepy. But the absolute low point is the opening of the second arc when a sexual harassment victim is peer pressured by her friends into nude modelling.
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Oct 10, 2022 18:59
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AlternateNu posted:It's this. Also...that was the whole episode, not just a one shot gif-able line. I have not seen SP in almost 20 years so all I really know is the context of the gif, sorry
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Oct 10, 2022 19:04
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It's been a hot 13 years since i last played P4. But nooooooo, they didnt put this line in there, did they?
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Oct 10, 2022 19:25
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Morgana's archaic way of speaking is supposed to be a reference to the novel I Am A Cat (I think this gets referenced in one of the classroom cutscenes? I don't remember), but even leaving that aside he's an annoying and completely unlikable ball of raging insecurity, which is particularly laughable given the big twist about what his true identity is supposed to be. I don't think it can just be chalked up to nuances getting lost in translation. The character writing in P5 has issues. Where was bro Ryuji who sacrificed himself to save your character who he'd only met five minutes ago, instead of the insecure glory-hound loudmouth Ryuji who we have to deal with for the entire rest of the game? Yes it's realistic teenager behavior but he never really grows out of it, you just get some background in his S-Link about his history. Flawed characters are good but only if those flaws are engaged with in an interesting way. Kamoshida is an absolutely loathsome human being but is an excellent character, whereas Shido also has zero redeeming features but he's a boring Saturday morning cartoon villain. In a lot of ways the game blows its load in the first chapter and then teases you into thinking that it's going to hit those same highs again but ultimately never manages it.
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Oct 10, 2022 20:29
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lol Is that your MC's name?
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Oct 10, 2022 20:45
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Sapozhnik posted:Where was bro Ryuji who sacrificed himself to save your character who he'd only met five minutes ago, instead of the insecure glory-hound loudmouth Ryuji who we have to deal with for the entire rest of the game?
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Oct 10, 2022 20:50
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wologar posted:lol Honest to god, I didn't even know this was a thing until after I played the game. I always just name MCs after myself because I'm uncreative. DemoneeHo posted:It's been a hot 13 years since i last played P4. But nooooooo, they didnt put this line in there, did they? You're not the first or even second person who insists this wasn't in original P4 but I've only played Golden so I can't say. It's def in the PC version of Golden, though.
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Oct 10, 2022 20:56
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Funky Valentine posted:He nearly dies getting everyone out of Shido's palace and the girls beat the poo poo out of him for it. Just a baffling scene. Maybe because I was watching it as an American, but I expected the scene to end with Ann and everyone else going “you idiot!”, but still happy he was alive. You know, a heartwarming moment between friends. But I guess an awkwardly inserted comedy scene was more important, I guess.
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Oct 10, 2022 21:11
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Funky Valentine posted:He nearly dies getting everyone out of Shido's palace and the girls beat the poo poo out of him for it. I found this almost as hosed up as the nude modeling given Ryuji's history of physical trauma. I think he also had an abusive dad who walked out on him?
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Oct 10, 2022 22:20
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Persona 5 is one of those games where the person writing it has none of the depth required by the themes and ideas it attempts to grasp.
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Oct 10, 2022 22:21
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Persona 3 is the only modern Persona not to fuckup its themes tbh, and that's mostly because the only way to gently caress up "Death is inevitable and it will come to us all so we have to accept it and move on with our lives" is resurrection. And the spin offs kinda tumble that premise.
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Oct 10, 2022 22:26
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I'm just not a fan of how 3-5 doesn't understand that all people have multiple personas, as a psychological concept. It really ends up being "protagonist-sama is the only person in the world who is special" all the way down to if you pass out in battle, nobody else is smart enough to revive you aspects.
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Oct 10, 2022 22:28
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GiantRockFromSpace posted:Persona 3 is the only modern Persona not to fuckup its themes tbh, and that's mostly because the only way to gently caress up "Death is inevitable and it will come to us all so we have to accept it and move on with our lives" is resurrection. And the spin offs kinda tumble that premise. I was watching a streamer play Silent Hill 3 and as an anime watcher and Japanese video game player for 20 years now, I can't help but feel these quotes were pure, raw, distilled examples of what drat near every anime and JRPG says: quote:Claudia: She will usher in the eternal Paradise. "Death, suffering, and pain ae inevitable facts of life, just deal with it" is in so many things.
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Oct 10, 2022 22:37
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Neeksy posted:Persona 5 is one of those games where the person writing it has none of the depth required by the themes and ideas it attempts to grasp. Persona 4 was clearly written by a conservative whose underlying moral of all the character arcs was "stay in your place" with all the character arcs except one being from unhappy in their appointed place to knuckling down and now being happy in their appointed place. (This of course is why Kanji and Naoto are so botched). Persona 5 reads like that same writer was struck by the revelation that the system wasn't the best possible thing and so wanted to write about rebels but didn't have a clue how to rebel and their triumph is restoring the status quo.
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Oct 10, 2022 23:12
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