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Mistborn spoilers: I don't have anything to really base this on, but I wonder if Trell is part of Harmony's power breaking off or acting without Sazed's conscious control. There was the whole moment where Harmony told Wax the ruin part of him forces him to allow bad things to happen, but Harmony still feels more Preservationy than Ruiny. Probably not since this book is going to be more cosmere related and a wholly local problem wouldn't really necessitate that.
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Oct 7, 2022 20:34
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Stormlight spoilers and general Cosmere chat: Do we have any good speculation on where the humans on Roshar came from? I vaguely recall the realization from the humans that they were basically an invasive species not native to Roshar because investiture/some other magic catastrophe made their planet unlivable. I'm going through stuff I haven't listened to from Arcanum Unbounded, and in the intro to Sixth of the Dusk mentions that their perpendicularity on First of the Sun is unusual because there is no shard there, and that there are other inhabited and one uninhabited planets in the system. That makes me wonder if there are other specific hints about planets/systems that we know so far that humans may have fled from, maybe in the falling out from the death/splintering of a shard? Could a shard itself have been weakened by people using it's investiture or become to powerful from it, to the point where the shard or planet is destroyed? Kind of an echo of the people destroying Adonalsium, but just becoming strong enough from one shard to destroy that shard.
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Oct 8, 2022 01:04
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They are from a couple places, but mainly Ashyn, the planet they ruined
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Oct 8, 2022 01:38
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Tunicate posted:They are from a couple places, but mainly Ashyn, the planet they ruined Ah, thank you! I had forgotten whether or not that was clearly stated or what the audience knows about Ashyn. It's been several years since I read whatever Stormlight book that comes from, so off to Coppermind I go to refresh!
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Oct 8, 2022 01:47
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road potato posted:Stormlight spoilers and general Cosmere chat: As Tunicate wrote, most of them are from Ashyn/The Tranquiline Halls. Dalinar & co. know about Ashyn now, because Shalash and the Stormfather told them about the planet. But it should be noted that the Iraili/Rirans don't share this common origin, they came to Roshar from a different planet. We don't know enough non-shardworlds to really answer your second question. There's the world from Sixth of the Dusk that you described, which is unusual for it's perpendicularity. And then there Threnody, which is in the system in which Ambition was killed and splintered. Whether humans were present on that world before Ambition was killed or not is unknown for now. Some of the kickstarter secret project novels might be set on non-shardworlds, but we can't be sure of that now. But the biggest example of humans fleeing from a world is surely Yolen, where Adonalsium was splintered. And where humanity originated. So far as I know, every human population in the Cosmere is descended from the Yolish diaspora, with the exception of the Scadrians, which were created by Preservation and Ruin, but are patterned after the Yolish humans.
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Oct 8, 2022 07:11
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Threnody hmm, coppermind info from arcanum unbounded Coppermind posted:The origin of the human population is unknown, but it predates Ambition's arrival. Also the shard fight messed with the people there, but it wasn't until after the shards all left that something made the larger continent uninhabitable. I'd bet on a human doing it, but maybe it was a type one invested entity, which would make sense if it was investiture from ambition.
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Oct 8, 2022 16:37
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:Threnody hmm, coppermind info from arcanum unbounded might be that when Ambition got murked lots of beings that previously contained its power changed. or when they died their residual investment started turning them into the ghosts there, and it didn't happen until Ambition was gone not really arguing just think there's plenty of possibilities for it to just be ripples of that planet's patron getting killed, since there have been pretty massive unanticipated effects from other Shards that died
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Oct 8, 2022 17:04
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General cosmere stuff: One thing that I think is important, is that the cosmere is not a universe. It is a subset of a larger universe. it may be possible to leave the physical boundaries of the cosmere. Perhaps Trell is an entity from outside the bounds of it. An extracosmeric entity. That would be fun, but might raise the stakes a little higher. what if Adonalsium was not a singular entity, but part of a pantheon, each responsible for a section of their universe. The God Beyond has to come from somewhere. Now that's mostly speculation and I'd welcome sources where Brandon says that's not what's happening.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:54
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The Sanderson panel at NYCC was pretty baller. Just 60 minutes of Q&A and a 30 minute reading of an excerpt from Stormlight 5. I've never really sat down and watched him interact with a crowd, and I have to say. I was pretty impressed. They taped it and it will be going up on his Youtube soon. For those who want the taste, the excerpt was the first part of the flashback story for Stormlight 5 and this time we're following *space*space*space*Szeth*space*space*space* during his childhood. It was a pretty good look into their character. If anyone cares, I've only read Stormlight 1 + 2 and am in the middle of Warbreaker and nothing in the excerpt was really a spoiler for anything.
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Oct 8, 2022 23:59
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Oathbringer and beyond spoilers: I'm rereading Oathbringer, and something jumped out at me this time that I'd never really noticed before. When Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher and meets Cultivation instead, she says he's the first human she's interacted with in centuries. But we know she's also touched at least Taravangian and Lift, so this time I went and checked the timing on that -- and it all happens in a span of less than two years. Taravangian creates the Diagram two months later, so he must've shown up, like, the day after Dalinar left or something. Both of those things happen in 1168, and since Lift is fixated on the idea of being ten years old and was born in 1160, it's likely she visited in 1170, since that's when she'd think she got her age frozen. That's a hell of a tight window. Coincidence? Did Cultivation pull in the other two based on whatever she saw in Dalinar? Or it's possible she was lying/Brandon hosed up, because seriously, that timeframe between Dalinar and Taravangian is technically possible, but absurdly tight. Taravangian must have had his one good day on, like, literally the day he got home.
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Oct 10, 2022 06:00
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Maybe Cultivation used Nightwatcher as a proxy for Taravangian and Lift? Or has it been explicitly stated that cultivation met with them?
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Oct 10, 2022 06:29
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:Maybe Cultivation used Nightwatcher as a proxy for Taravangian and Lift? Or has it been explicitly stated that cultivation met with them? been stated WoB that it was her, yeah
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Oct 10, 2022 06:36
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It's pretty obvious in the text, too. The Stormfather rages that Lift has been created specifically to gently caress with him, and Lift can identiy the scent of Cultivation on Dalinar. And when Taravangium meets with Cultivation, she takes explicit credit for setting him up to ascend -- and the whole thing is pretty clearly premeditated in retrospect what with Taravangian's stupidest days also being his most emotional. That's a level of both forethought and future sight that the Nightwatcher isn't capable of.
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Oct 10, 2022 08:26
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CapnAndy posted:It's pretty obvious in the text, too. The Stormfather rages that Lift has been created specifically to gently caress with him, and Lift can identiy the scent of Cultivation on Dalinar. And when Taravangium meets with Cultivation, she takes explicit credit for setting him up to ascend -- and the whole thing is pretty clearly premeditated in retrospect what with Taravangian's stupidest days also being his most emotional. That's a level of both forethought and future sight that the Nightwatcher isn't capable of. The only people you "need" an explanation for are Dalinar and Taravangian. Lift is just a random girl who happened to come to the Valley at the right time. Everything that makes her special, even her Radiant bond, comes as a result of Cultivation meddling with her. Dalinar and Taravangian are different. Taravangian's visit makes sense, he's from a less devoutly Vorin kingdom, and so he had no high cultural barriers to visit the Nightwatcher in reaction to Gavilar's revelations to him. Dalina visiting shortly before Big T is more of a coincidence, although she knew already that Odium was grooming Dalinar to become an important part of his plans. Perhaps there was some nudging on her part to remember Evi's advice in regards to the Nightwatcher? Personally, I'm also quite interested to learn how Nightblood left the Nightwatcher's possession and ended up with Nale.
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Oct 10, 2022 10:56
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Torrannor posted:The only people you "need" an explanation for are Dalinar and Taravangian. Lift is just a random girl who happened to come to the Valley at the right time. Everything that makes her special, even her Radiant bond, comes as a result of Cultivation meddling with her. But in this case, my concern isn't the who, it's the when. It's such a surprisingly short timeframe.
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Oct 10, 2022 16:49
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Timeline link, absolutely full of spoilers if you scroll around at all https://roshar.17thshard.com/#/en-US Stormlight spoilers: Taravangian pens the diagram weeks after returning, so yeah, pretty much right after Dalinar and as soon as Taravangian got home. Gavilar did manage to make antivoidlight, among other things, so Cultivation getting more involved makes sense, the only weird part would be that she seemingly waited a few years to react. She has good future sight, so she could have gotten involved earlier, so maybe whatever Gavilar did serves her purposes.
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Oct 10, 2022 19:38
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CapnAndy posted:I mean... that's a dangerous assumption. Gods play the long game by their very nature. She's clearly been playing a long game though, especially with regard to Nightblood.
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Oct 11, 2022 20:25
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NikkolasKing posted:And can I jusr say, on the topic of Wit, I'd like to pick some peoples' brains on this. Stormlight spoilers. This is from a week ago but I want to chime in, regarding Wit in the stormlight books: I think Sanderson tips his hand that Hoid/Wit is Good when he casts withering insults at everyone but Renarin. Sanderson is never tremendously subtle about who is a hero and who is a villain in his works, maybe the closest example is Taravangian? Even when he does stuff like 'actually Kelsier is a villain if you think about it', it rings hollow.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:02
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mewse posted:This is from a week ago but I want to chime in, regarding Wit in the stormlight books: Do we have anybody reading Mistborn? I guess I'll spoiler it just in case. That word of Brandon about Kelsier still bugs me. I had read The Final Empire two or so times before I heard of his claim that Kelsier is supposedly some kind of psychopath. That's such a dumb claim. He might have taken on his noble task due to selfish vengeance but that wasn't the end of his arc in the novel. He clearly loved Vin, loved her enough to change and see that Elend wasn't "just some Noble" but was in fact a good man. “Kelsier,” Vin said quietly. “He’s a good man, isn’t he?” Sazed smiled. “A very good man, Mistress. One of the best I’ve known.” Like you said, how other characters treat them/are treated is a pretty big indicator of their status as hero or villain. It was Kelsier who helped Vin become the greatest hero in the world. His goodness is attested to by no less an authority than Sazed, another very wise, good person. Vin absolutely surpassed Kelsier as a good person, basically becoming a saint, but it was still his example and actions which started her on the path.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:49
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NikkolasKing posted:Do we have anybody reading Mistborn? I guess I'll spoiler it just in case. 
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Oct 11, 2022 22:10
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On the other hand [era 2 spoilers]sazed immediatley whitewashes the lord ruler and seems to view people largely as chess pieces to manipulate* rather than as being worthy of respect, so I wouldn't necessairly trust his opinions. That said I think Klesier is generally a lot more moral in his behavior than Sazed. *the way he treats Wax is a continuation of his era 1 arc where he fully develops his philosophy that people should be given beliefs based on the usefulness of them possessing those beliefs.
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Oct 11, 2022 23:11
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Tunicate posted:sazed immediatley whitewashes the lord ruler Can we really put all the blame on him for that, when Brandon was the one who started it?
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Oct 12, 2022 03:31
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NikkolasKing posted:Do we have anybody reading Mistborn? I guess I'll spoiler it just in case. He's a hero, but you have to be a sociopath to murder your way to the top like he did. Die Hard is also a sociopath. Inglorious Bastards, The Raid, Star Wars... Tons of examples of Heros doing some sociopathic wholesale killing for the greater good and celebrated for it. Its an important distinction.
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Oct 12, 2022 03:53
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Anshu posted:Can we really put all the blame on him for that, when Brandon was the one who started it? Those sections were written in-character.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:12
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Tunicate posted:Those sections were written in-character. I was referring to the whole messages-in-caches thing.
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Oct 12, 2022 05:55
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Are we sure Brandon didn’t say/mean Kelsier is sociopath? A common mix up and much more understandable, because he does manipulate people to do things with more focus on the outcome than their well-being. And it would explain his obsession for sticking around rather than going to the Beyond. Also, I just learned tonight if you go here to the Words of Brandon section of coppermind you can read transcripts of a Szeth chapter and a Kaladin chapter from Stormlight Book 5 (NY comic-con link and FanC link, respectively) https://wob.coppermind.net/
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Oct 12, 2022 07:16
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:Are we sure Brandon didn’t say/mean Kelsier is sociopath? A common mix up and much more understandable, because he does manipulate people to do things with more focus on the outcome than their well-being. And it would explain his obsession for sticking around rather than going to the Beyond. That would make much more sense given Kelsier's actions in Mistborn era 2 and the fact that he's, y'know, leader of the Ghostbloods and all. I'm reading book 1 of Mistborn to my youngest daughter right now and it's super interesting how my views on what he says has changed since my first reading and knowing what I know now.
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Oct 12, 2022 15:07
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Louisgod posted:That would make much more sense given Kelsier's actions in Mistborn era 2 and the fact that he's, y'know, leader of the Ghostbloods and all. I'm reading book 1 of Mistborn to my youngest daughter right now and it's super interesting how my views on what he says has changed since my first reading and knowing what I know now. Later Mistborn/Stromlight spoilers: Of course, several lifetimes have passed since TFE. He's explored other dimensions of reality, had contact with gods, probably many other things we don't even know about yet. Kelsier radically changed as a person in a few years, let alone a few centuries. Whatever he is now, I don't think it's fair to say that's who he always was. If we were to categorize Kelsier as something, it would probably be Narcissistic, not sociopathic. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 17:02 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 16:55
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On Kelsier I don't know about a psychopath (maybe?) but Kelsier is definitely a sociopath. A lot of people use those words interchangeably so Brandon could have meant the latter. He murders indescriminately, manipulates the poo poo out of everyone around him for his own goals, and has a huge God complex. Yeah, he cares about and even loves some people, but his empathy is in the background if it exists at all, and his plan to save the world is more about his own glorification and martyrdom than actually improving the lives of the people. I would say there are moments when he veers into psychopathic behavior but it's not that common. But he is definitely a sociopath lol
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Oct 12, 2022 17:05
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Synesthesian Fetish posted:Are we sure Brandon didn’t say/mean Kelsier is sociopath? To get us all on the same page this is what I was referencing when I mentioned Sanderson saying something like 'Kelsier was actually a villain' (from July 2013): AUSTIN TEEN BOOK FESTIVAL What character of yours would be a great addition to Game of Thrones? BRANDON SANDERSON Ha! I don't know if I hate any of my characters enough to do that to them! What interesting questions you have! I think Kelsier from Mistborn would probably fit in the best. Not a lot of people pick up on this, but Kelsier is actually a psychopath. He likes to kill people. He takes pleasure and joy in it. He only lets this side of himself out once in a while, but there are points in the book where he takes down a nobleman, and he's just gleeful about the ability and the chance to do it. In the Mistborn world, he's a hero because the people Kelsier is killing are oppressors. Part of the fun of writing him was the idea that in another story, if things had gone differently, he'd be the villain. But in this story, Kelsier is the hero, and it's because he's able to channel his being a psychopath into a noble cause, but still, there's a danger behind Kelsier's eyes that might let him survive in Westeros better than a lot of my other characters.
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Oct 12, 2022 17:09
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Taffer posted:On Kelsier I don't know about a psychopath (maybe?) but Kelsier is definitely a sociopath. A lot of people use those words interchangeably so Brandon could have meant the latter. I wouldn't exactly call Kelsier indiscriminate considering how absurdly over the top evil Final Empire nobles are.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:05
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Tunicate posted:I wouldn't exactly call Kelsier indiscriminate considering how absurdly over the top evil Final Empire nobles are. I think Sanderson's dead-on. Kelsier has great goals, but not only does he fundamentally not care how much blood he's got to wade through to get there, he views wading through the blood as a benefit. He gets downright confused when people are like "maybe we only kill the bad nobles?", because why would you kill fewer people than you could get away with?
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Oct 12, 2022 18:17
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About 1 in 3 nobles are publicly known to be rapist murderers, I think it's a very fair default assumption that any given noble is guilty of something heinous. It's certainly a lot better than Elend's "don't punish any of the nobility because of the economy" stance.
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Oct 12, 2022 18:26
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Really, when you think about it, All Nobles Are Bastards
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Oct 12, 2022 18:55
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There is definitely a spectrum between Glorious Revolution and Kill Everyone Wearing Eyeglasses, and Kelsier's on the wrong end of it.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:01
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I mean, big warbreaker spoilers but Vasher is the "hero" who killed his lover because he's bad at communicating. Arsteel gets killed by Vasher because Vasher misinterprets Artseel's motives (wob). Not to mention the poo poo they got up to in the manywar. Kelsier enjoys violence sure but he's not the only very morally grey character.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:53
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Brutor Fartknocker posted:I mean, big warbreaker spoilers but Vasher is the "hero" who killed his lover because he's bad at communicating. Arsteel gets killed by Vasher because Vasher misinterprets Artseel's motives (wob). Not to mention the poo poo they got up to in the manywar. Kelsier enjoys violence sure but he's not the only very morally grey character. That's imho different, (Mistborn, Warbreaker and Stormlight spoilers), Vasher is pretty much somebody who regrets his past actions and is trying to atone. Young Dalinar was a monster, but he's change drastically, and is now very obviously a hero. It's even debatable whether current Dalinar is morally grey at all. Kelsier on the other hand hasn't changed. The circumstances in the Final Empire made him a hero, but his current actions are a lot more questionable.
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Oct 13, 2022 01:37
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I can't really condemn Kelsier for his stance on nobles in the final empire. He's also pretty drat traumatized by his life experiences. Gotta say I never really agreed with Sanderson on this part, everything Kelsier does and thinks in the books seems like something a normal person could do when traumatized and hurt enough and they become hate filled and revenge driven. Don't see a need to bring in sociopathy or psychopathy. Life experiences can shape you just as much and Kelsiers experiences definitely shaped him into the man he was.
His Divine Shadow fucked around with this message at 04:52 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 04:48
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I feel like you can describe a violent revolutionary who has been broken and then turns to violently and finally breaking others without using terms like Sociopath/Psychopath. I think people are capable of just "snapping" without possessing a particular disorder from birth/youth.
TGG fucked around with this message at 05:54 on Oct 13, 2022 |
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Oct 13, 2022 05:49
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Just cause trauma caused you to do bad things (understandable to a point) doesn't mean that the bad things are then okay, just explainable. His hatred is very understandable, but his joy of murdering the noble class isn't really justifiable in most moral frameworks. Like, I'm a total "eat the rich, acab" etc type person but that doesn't mean literally every cop and millionaire deserves murder lol. Just removal from power! Only the really verifiably bad ones driving the bad systems deserve public justice 
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Oct 13, 2022 05:54
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