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Oasx posted:[RoP] is working on a basic enough story that they can do what they want. strongly disagree here
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Oct 8, 2022 06:59
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Viewers are used to TV shows not coming out on a yearly schedule any more, it happens all the time. Settle down, people New Mat doesn't look too different from Old Mat, that's good
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Oct 8, 2022 07:16
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Rarity posted:Viewers are used to TV shows not coming out on a yearly schedule any more, it happens all the time. Settle down, people i understand that the viewers are treated like cattle, and that it happens all the time now. i'm asking if perhaps the previous standard of 24 episdoes every 12 months was better than 8 episodes every 24 months. no trend analysis here worth exploring? none?
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Oct 8, 2022 07:24
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I think something was definitely lost by going to shorter seasons, especially since the main reason for doing so was to have less filler, and for a lot of big prestige shows it has instead meant that filler just takes up a proportionally larger part of the season. But TV has also changed a lot in the last decade, there are plenty of shows that still do a yearly schedule, but I am not sure if it's actually possible to do it with these expensive shows.
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Oct 8, 2022 08:14
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I don't get why people are so down on the Wheel of Time showrunners. In my opinion, everything I've heard from interviews points that they had a strong vision for the season, but were really hampered by the runtime, studio interference, COVID, and the Mat actor leaving. For example, the worst part of the season to me was the cold open in the pilot, and that was something Amazon forced since they wanted an action scene as the open. If I'm not mistaken, the original pilot script was very different (and like 2 hours long). I think the only thing in their vision that I'm not a huge fan of is the whole Dragon mystery, but eh, it's fine. It might have worked a lot better if episode 7 was in it's original form, before Mat left. Edit: I do agree that S2 is where they need to show that without COVID and actors leaving they can nail it.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:04
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I figured that dragon stuff was amazon interference as well
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Oct 8, 2022 17:07
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I think overall, despite my problems with season 1 (and I have a lot of them), Im willing to give season 2 a shot. Given all the poo poo that hosed them in season 1 thats all you can really ask for.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:09
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I think season 2 has a lot of potential but like I'm a biased source so we'll see.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:12
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i say swears online posted:I figured that dragon stuff was amazon interference as well
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Oct 8, 2022 17:13
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It wasn't important in the book!
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Oct 8, 2022 17:21
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I liked S1. It's a low-impact high fantasy adventure, not something I'm going to get in knots about analysing. Although I know that will be very different for people who read the books decades ago and have a lot of prebuilt investment. It was sometimes corny, is really the only criticism I can remember having. Some of the magic power scenes, mainly. The story seems to be a pretty straightforward heroes vs the dark lord kind of thing but I think criticising it on that level is pointless because it's what the show is aiming for, so you are either up for that or you're not and if you're not there are so many other things to watch instead. I liked the original Matt so it is a shame he won't be returning but I'm looking forward to S2.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:27
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JOHN SKELETON posted:I don't get why people are so down on the Wheel of Time showrunners. In my opinion, everything I've heard from interviews points that they had a strong vision for the season, but were really hampered by the runtime, studio interference, COVID, and the Mat actor leaving. For example, the worst part of the season to me was the cold open in the pilot, and that was something Amazon forced since they wanted an action scene as the open. If I'm not mistaken, the original pilot script was very different (and like 2 hours long). The silly thing there is the book's original prologue (i.e. not the Two Rivers one added later) has at least as much action as the scene they used, and could easily be modified very slightly to include more in a number of ways without compromising the spirit of the scene in the slightest. While also being just much more intriguing as a starting point, and setting up the horror of what the Dragon is to people in the contemporary world of the story. i say swears online posted:I figured that dragon stuff was amazon interference as well I hope it is, because it seems like some producer chasing the Game of Thrones bandwagon i.e. "Who'll win the Iron Throne" and/or "Who will win the Game of Thrones"? The Wheel of Time doesn't really trade on that kind of intrigue though, or the twists that made Game of Thrones such compelling watching for a lot of people. There are some shocking scenes during the story, but they have build up and momentum behind them that the audience can see coming and it's just their casual brutality or action that is what's shocking rather than the events themselves coming out of nowhere. If that whole thing was the idea of Rafe Judkins or some of the core creators then it shows a rather cynical streak, or possibly a misunderstanding of the appeal of the story to a lot of people.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:31
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tsob posted:The silly thing there is the book's original prologue (i.e. not the Two Rivers one added later) has at least as much action as the scene they used, and could easily be modified very slightly to include more in a number of ways without compromising the spirit of the scene in the slightest. While also being just much more intriguing as a starting point, and setting up the horror of what the Dragon is to people in the contemporary world of the story. I think they're expanding the Lews Therin characters background to build up to the prologue. See him more as a person than just a legend from the past. You could expand on his family, the politics building up to what happens, there are places it can go before the prologue. Not that I wouldn't be thrilled to see a direct book to screen adaption but they're not doing that so if they're gonna make changes I would like ones that build on what is hinted at from the books instead of stuff like making Nynaeve come from outside of the Two Rivers, for some reason.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:49
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ONE YEAR LATER posted:I think they're expanding the Lews Therin characters background to build up to the prologue. See him more as a person than just a legend from the past. You could expand on his family, the politics building up to what happens, there are places it can go before the prologue. Sure, but you don't need to cut the prologue to do that. They're not mutually exclusive. Showing the end of his life doesn't mean you can't occasionally show glimpses of other parts of it. It even serves to give those scenes showing his earlier life some more weight if you know how it ends. Which they showed anyway, if not directly, because it was the story of the first of the Origins shorts they put up as an extra on the Amazon Prime page.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:53
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JOHN SKELETON posted:I don't get why people are so down on the Wheel of Time showrunners. In my opinion, everything I've heard from interviews points that they had a strong vision for the season, but were really hampered by the runtime, studio interference, COVID, and the Mat actor leaving. For example, the worst part of the season to me was the cold open in the pilot, and that was something Amazon forced since they wanted an action scene as the open. If I'm not mistaken, the original pilot script was very different (and like 2 hours long). I look forward to season 2, i'm just worried about how they are going to do subsequent books when everything is going to get a lot more expensive and complicated from each season on. Hopefully, Amazon is less strict from now on so that the showrunners can do their best.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:55
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TTR isn't backwater in the show and AS are better known, but this is all flirting with spoilers.
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Oct 8, 2022 17:55
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i don't think they've learned their lesson considering the S2 teaser talks abut "breaking the Wheel" which is, at the very least, extremely misleading
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Oct 11, 2022 15:09
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JOHN SKELETON posted:I don't get why people are so down on the Wheel of Time showrunners. In my opinion, everything I've heard from interviews points that they had a strong vision for the season, but were really hampered by the runtime, studio interference, COVID, and the Mat actor leaving. For example, the worst part of the season to me was the cold open in the pilot, and that was something Amazon forced since they wanted an action scene as the open. If I'm not mistaken, the original pilot script was very different (and like 2 hours long). Specifically in relation to studio pressure, I understand that studios can be arseholes but at the same time, if you're making something and your publishers are trying to force you to do it differently and badly, it's a key part of your job to push back against that. The fact the showrunners failed to do that for season 1 isn't somehow a reason why I should like the show despite it being flawed. Nor is it a great sign for the future of the show. Then again, it's also no more than I expected when the guy who's running the show has a pretty meh background/CV. Perhaps if there had been more pushback from the showrunners, they would've been fired and the end product under someone else's direction would've been 10x worse. Or perhaps the studio would've made concessions. We'll never know. It's by no means the end of the world that season 1 wasn't very good, it's a little disappointing but it is kind of what I expected prior to it coming out, when I went and looked at what Rafe had done previously. Wheel of Time is an insane thing to try to adapt, it's got to be one of the most vast and complex single story arc narratives ever I should think. It would have taken some really special and super talented folks to make it a 'great' show; the reason the first few seasons of GoT were awesome is they had some serious writing, directing and acting chops making them, they had a great story which they adapted relatively closely (making changes for the different medium but not thinking they could just outright rip apart the narrative in a bunch of ways and it would be as good as or better than the source material), and because they were relatively uncompromising about quality (e.g. the infamous issue with the pilot having to be completely re-done at huge cost). The chances of us getting something that good for the WoT adaptation were incredibly slim. The historic ratio of terrible fantasy adaptations vs. good ones is... not good. So, it is what it is. Some folks find it entertaining and it seems to have encouraged a huge surge of new book readers so overall it's a good thing IMO. Who knows what could happen in the future, it's not exactly like we live in an era where remakes or re-adaptations are unprecedented. on the same theme, re: the dragon mystery from s1: tsob posted:I hope it is, because it seems like some producer chasing the Game of Thrones bandwagon i.e. "Who'll win the Iron Throne" and/or "Who will win the Game of Thrones"? The Wheel of Time doesn't really trade on that kind of intrigue though, or the twists that made Game of Thrones such compelling watching for a lot of people. There are some shocking scenes during the story, but they have build up and momentum behind them that the audience can see coming and it's just their casual brutality or action that is what's shocking rather than the events themselves coming out of nowhere. If that whole thing was the idea of Rafe Judkins or some of the core creators then it shows a rather cynical streak, or possibly a misunderstanding of the appeal of the story to a lot of people. Radio Times posted:Talking about how adding more people to the list of Chosen One suspects gives the story more mystery than the books, showrunner Rafe Judkins told RadioTimes.com in an exclusive interview: “I think for us, one thing that was really important for us is that, in the books, you know who the Dragon Reborn is, really, the whole way through the first book. It gives us a great mystery for the first season of 'who is the Dragon Reborn?' – it’s really an ensemble show, and you want to meet these different people, and be able to invest in them, like: 'Oh, could it be them? Could it be them?'. IMO most of Judkins's statements on the show indicate a rather superficial understanding of what made the books such great stories (and such a huge success). But then again as is probably apparent from the above, I'm not that positive on his abilities as a showrunner overall.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:38
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It honestly seems to me like they got scared by the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus aspect of the setting and made a bunch of poorly conceived changes to try to mitigate that. Which isn't to say it isn't a fair concern to have, but making big changes to an existing storyline is fraught with peril in general regardless of what your intentions are.
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Oct 11, 2022 15:53
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Colonel Cool posted:It honestly seems to me like they got scared by the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus aspect of the setting and made a bunch of poorly conceived changes to try to mitigate that. Which isn't to say it isn't a fair concern to have, but making big changes to an existing storyline is fraught with peril in general regardless of what your intentions are. Yeah this is what I was gearing up to say. Tone-deaf in 2021 or not, the gender magic system is what makes the story what it is, and is at the heart of all the character arcs and universe-building, and to downplay it is to make the whole thing more generic. So you have to add something as a new hook. Which, to the above point, isn't to say the end result gets a pass if it's bad. It's just bad
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Oct 11, 2022 16:00
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If your enjoyment of the story requires  then I don't think you actually like the story because it's not really that critical.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:16
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I read the first three books and thought that aspect was bad and poorly dated - it reeks of gender essentialism. The show was clumsy in its changes, I won't argue that, but I'm glad they made an attempt. I liked the first book well enough but after the third I was done with it all and I wouldn't have made it through that third book if one character didn't do a 180 and became amazing.
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Oct 11, 2022 16:19
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Jimbot posted:I read the first three books and thought that aspect was bad and poorly dated - it reeks of gender essentialism. The show was clumsy in its changes, I won't argue that, but I'm glad they made an attempt. I liked the first book well enough but after the third I was done with it all and I wouldn't have made it through that third book if one character didn't do a 180 and became amazing. Things really start getting good in the fourth book
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Oct 11, 2022 20:53
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Things really start getting good in the fourth book I sure hope we don't have to wait till the fourth season for the show to get good. If I were a betting man, this show won't see four seasons unless things drastically change.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:11
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Second season is books 2 and 3, and we're already renewed for a Season 3, which is book four. But yeah the joke is that "it gets good about 3000 pages in" is not praise It really does tho
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Oct 11, 2022 21:15
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I do not think they'll suddenly stop diverging from the books so hugely so maybe 3 seasons will get us through 14
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Oct 11, 2022 21:16
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They didn't really diverge from the book much in season 1 though
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Oct 11, 2022 21:19
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The prologue/pre credits and the middle of the season were made up?
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Oct 11, 2022 21:21
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The prologue is literally one scene and outside of some details the story still follows the general plot of the first book. Yeah they built on some stuff that is only really hinted at or mentioned in the books and brought some characters from the New Spring prequel into it, but they didn't really change a lot of the story of Eye of the World.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:28
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it's also the most straightforward plot in the series. i'd be surprised if there weren't major departures by book 4 when things get nuts
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Oct 11, 2022 21:29
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Book one is just a journey book, it would be impossible to not fit that. They gutted things with no payoff for 10 books too. Maybe those will get reintroduced, but I suspect we'll instead have some madeup stuff to have more super cool battles.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:31
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There's also A LOT of characters over the whole series, I'm sure a ton of them get cut simply because it's far easier to come up with another name for a book than it is to include another actor in a show.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:32
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Hughmoris posted:If I were a betting man, this show won't see four seasons unless things drastically change. It was hugely popular though. Not everyone is a no change grognard who is going to gnash at the teeth if they don't see all the spankings on tv.
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Oct 11, 2022 21:50
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'The books don't get good until book 4' is a thing nerds have made up. The books get good in book 2, they just get awesome in book 4
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Oct 11, 2022 22:41
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CainFortea posted:It was hugely popular though. Not everyone is a no change grognard who is going to gnash at the teeth if they don't see all the spankings on tv. It was popular, but the last couple of episodes were rough. I get that it was COVID stuff and all, and I'm still onboard with the next season, but they need to right the ship and fast or I think the audience is going to go away. The show dropped out of the public consciousness pretty quickly. I honestly think the show was at its best when it was doing its own thing, telling the story the showrunners wanted to tell. I think that's ultimately why I don't Ike the mystery aspect to the dragon reveal, they did that to add spice to a part of the story they thought was boring, but they should have written a better story instead.
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Oct 11, 2022 22:47
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sweet geek swag posted:It was popular, but the last couple of episodes were rough. I get that it was COVID stuff and all, and I'm still onboard with the next season, but they need to right the ship and fast or I think the audience is going to go away. The show dropped out of the public consciousness pretty quickly. I agree with this. The show was ok but man the last few episodes were pretty meh
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Oct 12, 2022 00:28
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I feel like the show wasn't that popular, really. They can put out whatever metrics they want, but it feels like the show was not really talked about on social media at all. Fan engagement always felt like an essential factor to me to measure how much something is actually popular.
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Oct 12, 2022 01:42
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cheesetriangles posted:I feel like the show wasn't that popular, really. They can put out whatever metrics they want, but it feels like the show was not really talked about on social media at all. Fan engagement always felt like an essential factor to me to measure how much something is actually popular. It was really big in social media and those aren't numbers from Amazon. They don't really publish those kinds of numbers, very few streaming services do beyond generalities. https://deadline.com/2021/11/the-wh...-qa-1234879517/ "Additionally, according to third party TV-I, The Wheel of Time was the #1 series on social across all releases last weekend and is the biggest Amazon Original series on social this year."
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Oct 12, 2022 02:43
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cheesetriangles posted:I feel like the show wasn't that popular, really. They can put out whatever metrics they want, but it feels like the show was not really talked about on social media at all. Fan engagement always felt like an essential factor to me to measure how much something is actually popular. The premiere was one of the biggest in Amazon history and according to their own promotion it kept on doing great numbers (though it's probably dwarfed by Rings of Power now)
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Oct 12, 2022 06:01
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Colonel Cool posted:It honestly seems to me like they got scared by the Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus aspect of the setting and made a bunch of poorly conceived changes to try to mitigate that. yeah, this is for sure what has been going on. as if their minds were composed entirely of twitter bots screaming "IS WHEEL OF TIME CANCELLED IN A POST-ME TOO WORLD?!?!?!?!"
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Oct 12, 2022 13:39
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