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kliras posted:the 40-series is obviously getting av1 support, but obs just shipped a beta that also comes with more granular nvenc settings for h264 to improve quality My experiments with CPU AV1 encoding earlier this month on an admittedly old rear end system was that it can very easily kill older hardware so I believe this tweet. This is one of the reasons hardware based encoding solutions have the potential to make AV1 so much more viable.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:07
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Almost Smart posted:So my idiot FOMO garbage brain prompted me to get whatever 4090 I could find available and I ended up with a card that’s 356 mm long. Unfortunately, my current PC case, a Corsair 680x, can only accommodate a GPU with a maximum length of 330 mm. you can buy an extra 25mm of clearance by removing the front fans, but 330+25 is still 1mm short of fitting that card and you might need to remove -two- of the front fans even it you can squeeze it in somehow 
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Oct 12, 2022 19:10
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:When did high end PC hardware cater to anyone else? I think some general unease over the progression of late stage capitalism is creeping into the GPU discussion, honestly, yeah there's a lot of poo poo that is wildly unsustainable and it's just a matter of time until poo poo hits the fan, but in particular high end PC hardware at the time of its launch has never been value-oriented. Look at the launch price for a Pentium II, if all my examples of high end video card setups of yesteryear don't move you. Buying power takes a hit when inflation outpaces wages, for sure, and in an environment where the cost of living has gone up in various ways without commensurate increases in earnings for a lot of folks I can understand feeling like there's an impossible barrier to getting the newest high end stuff. But the newest high end stuff has always been really expensive in the era it was in, this is not new. Don't get a 4090, wait until we see what a 4060 looks like for a deal more in line with past expectations. Maxing settings at the highest common resolutions of the day using the highest end parts available has been an expensive endeavor the whole time.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:12
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repiv posted:you can buy an extra 25mm of clearance by removing the front fans, but 330+25 is still 1mm short of fitting that card Goddammit. Thanks for the response (and helpful image) though.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:18
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:When did high end PC hardware cater to anyone else? A chicken in every pot, a water cooled waifu-printed RTX in every PCI 16x slot.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:19
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Agreed posted:Maxing settings at the highest common resolutions of the day using the highest end parts available has been an expensive endeavor the whole time. Also worth pointing out to the majority of people it's also a loving *useless* endeavor which is one thing driving price for these things up into the rich people's toys dimension. Devs cannot afford to make games that really cater to this hardware, you'd rather have a game that is playable and responsive than a game that is pretty but laggy af. Any time you spend watching 1080p youtubes or playing vampire survivors or reading this gray forum will be a waste of your tremendous hidden dark power. If you aren't planning to die tomorrow there's no reason to spend your money like you are, when this technology is actually useful and in demand it'll be available for less.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:22
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In 4 years there will be sub-$400 cards that have the performance of today’s 4090s, same as it ever was. The high end cards are for buyers interested in the high end, and there are plenty of options for everyone in every price range. How much is a 1080 today? Like 200?You can probably max out a lot of games with one unless you’re doing 4K, in which case congrats, you’re a high end buyer.
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Oct 12, 2022 19:24
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I think my main issue is if this is the ceiling for the best of the best - for now - what will be the 4070? 4060? I can't quite articulate it but telling people to just buy used/old things is the exact problem. The only ones who can afford the new thing(s) are those who are very well off. E: https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/q551sr/opinion_gpu_prices_will_never_get_back_to_normal/ Another post discussing this back from 2021 and they were right. Vintersorg fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 19:28
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No they weren't, the prices already went way down from that point. Listen, my man, I am not trying to be a dick but can you point to the time you think it was affordable to buy the newest, highest end hardware for a PC and there was no cost barrier to lower income earners?
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Oct 12, 2022 19:38
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It's been stated many times already, but best of the best ceiling is still cheaper now than it was a decade ago. 780ti was $699 at launch in 2013, and the high end buyers were getting two (or even three) for SLI. $700 in 2013 is almost $900 today, so you're talking $1800-2700 there. There are a TON of reasonably priced GPUs you can buy right now, today, that will crush anything you throw at them in 1080p. I'm not out there arguing about the death of console gaming because I can't buy a ps5 for the same $90 I paid for my NES. Enos Cabell fucked around with this message at 19:43 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 19:40
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Agreed posted:No they weren't, the prices already went way down from that point. Agreed, Agreed. I was making a lot less in 2020 than I am now, and the only reason I was able to build a reasonable PC was because of the first stimulus payment. Otherwise I would have had to resort to buying things piecemeal and saving for the higher-end components, and making a lot more compromises on what level of part I was getting. I'm doing better now, and dropped another $1000 or so into this machine over the last few months, and could swing a 4090 if I really wanted to, but it would strain my budget and I see no reason for one at this point (gaming at 1440p).
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Oct 12, 2022 19:43
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Subjunctive posted:Couldn't get an FE and Canada Computers opened up early so I couldn't get an AIO one, but I got a Gigabyte Windforce into my cart. Have to decide ASAP between that and the 4090 FE backordered to Oct 24th, ugh! why asap
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Oct 12, 2022 19:53
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Alan Smithee posted:why asap 3dmark just released their new benchmark and number MUST go up
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Oct 12, 2022 19:55
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:When did high end PC hardware cater to anyone else? I would argue that the definition of high end has changed substantially in terms of the percentage of consumers by demographic who can afford it.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:06
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I think the bigger issue is that the consumers that are used to being able to afford high end computer products are no longer well off enough to do so because of the pandemic, inflation, and other economic factors. It's less that the cards are being priced out of people's reach, and more that people's income is falling relative to the cost of goods going up.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:12
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kliras posted:the 40-series is obviously getting av1 support, but obs just shipped a beta that also comes with more granular nvenc settings for h264 to improve quality https://twitter.com/LtRoyalShrimp/status/1580248174005870592
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Oct 12, 2022 20:17
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Sq1Nr58hM
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Oct 12, 2022 20:17
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Quite possibly the best cutscene of all time.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:18
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Taima posted:I would argue that the definition of high end has changed substantially in terms of the percentage of consumers by demographic who can afford it. This is probably true but probably more to do with more gamers today than 10 years ago, so thus more stratification (at the top and elsewhere). Similarly, it seems like the used market has a LOT longer tail than it used to. 10 years ago a 5 year old GPU was landfill.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:27
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So who make a good PSU with the PCIE-5 power cable? I have a 750 watt Corsair unit I have been very happy with but its going on 10 years old at this point and is probably a bit undersized for a 4090. As far as I can tell Corsair doesn't have an option and I don't think EVGA does either, which would have been my first two choices.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:34
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GPU Megat[H]read - Not the bankruptcy thread
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Oct 12, 2022 20:46
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I had one of the Asus ones in my cart for a bit, but I really thought the FE would be available. Oh well, another day.funkymonks posted:So who make a good PSU with the PCIE-5 power cable? There aren't many out yet. Looks like Seasonic's will be here in December, I imagine other brands will be similar.
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Oct 12, 2022 20:50
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Had a nice long GPU reset (I think—no error pop up, but it looked like it) with the latest production drivers and a 4090 Windforce. Good times, good times. E: Linux doesn’t even boot with the 515 proprietary drivers, which will also be fun to remedy Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:02
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CaptainSarcastic posted:Agreed, Agreed.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:05
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kliras posted:the 40-series is obviously getting av1 support, but obs just shipped a beta that also comes with more granular nvenc settings for h264 to improve quality epos vox suddenly wakes in a cold sweat and doesn’t know why to be a little bit of a wet blanket, some of this may be settings that existed and were exposed in a tool like handbrake (which supports NVENC) or through ffmpeg’s nvenc_h264 codec with some flag. Most people don’t go poking deeply into the settings, actually even I haven’t because it works differently from x264/x265 (there are now three settings for CRF?) but there’s already an “quality vs performance vs latency” setting mode in there for NVENC iirc. And since these comparisons are usually using a source clip encoded with handbrake or ffmpeg… it may already be represented in some reviewers’ data, not an additional boost. Like, that may have just been a trick OBS missed. I don’t remember this multipass mode, so that sounds new, but apparently it has “quarter res” and “full res” modes, so they must be doing some kind of first pass on a low-res proxy and then they do further optimization from there? You could probably still benefit in some ways from having a “consensus view” on what roughly-correct motion search and keyframe/b-frames should look like for a given sequence, that would significantly reduce the amount of state that each “thread” has to track. Maybe once you can do that, brute-forcing a tighter encoding is doable. Especially if you can leverage texture memory and delta encoding… potentially that could yield a ton of bandwidth, if NVIDIA has found a clever way to handle some of the divergence problems of gpgpu software encoding. Honestly that problem might also be better with the A100 and per-thread scheduling too, especially if they can re-align memory access now. the optical flow engine has been a named feature since Turing, they supposedly revamped it significantly and I guess maybe that was one of the underlying reasons Turing was so much better at H264? I actually would love to see what that output looks like, there’s an sdk for the optical flow stuff. The other thing is maybe you could use that optical flow data for the motion estimation in software x264/x265 encoding… CatelynIsAZombie posted:My experiments with CPU AV1 encoding earlier this month on an admittedly old rear end system was that it can very easily kill older hardware so I believe this tweet. This is one of the reasons hardware based encoding solutions have the potential to make AV1 so much more viable. yeah av1 is designed around supporting Netflix and YouTube where they want 1 encode for each movie in each quality and they’re going to send it to 2 billion people and save 10 mb each time. The original cpu encoder is single threaded because google doesn’t care how long it takes to encode your poo poo (and they can serve lower quality in the meantime), but they run 32 encodes in parallel at 1 thread each and get the best quality and best cpu utilization (no sync/locking overhead) and it runs at like… seconds per frame. I heard it’s a little better now but cpu av1 encoding is still very very slow - and significantly better per bit than the av1 hardware encoders. But a hardware encoder being able to beat heavily squished software encoded x264/x265 would be useful. It ties you into AV1 capable hardware on the decode side too, older phones/laptops/etc won’t be able to play it, but it’s potentially a nice codec for an initial capture. Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:06
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There aren't many ATX 3.0 power supplies out yet, and they're quite expensive. I don't think it's a major issue using the supplied adapters for now. https://smile.amazon.com/SilverSton...d0-5ec63b24bcb5
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Oct 12, 2022 21:08
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Paul MaudDib posted:I don’t remember this multipass mode, so that sounds new, but apparently it has “quarter res” and “full res” modes, so they must be doing some kind of first pass on a low-res proxy and then they do further optimization from there? You could probably still benefit in some ways from having a “consensus view” on what roughly-correct motion search and keyframe/b-frames should look like for a given sequence, that would significantly reduce the amount of state that each “thread” has to track. Maybe once you can do that, brute-forcing a tighter encoding is doable. Especially if you can leverage texture memory and delta encoding… potentially that could yield a ton of bandwidth, if NVIDIA has found a clever way to handle some of the divergence problems of gpgpu software encoding. Honestly that problem might also be better with the A100 and per-thread scheduling too, especially if they can re-align memory access now. here's an old official tweet for reference https://twitter.com/nvidiastreaming/status/1083826211296468992?lang=en looks like two-pass might be a subgroup of multipass encoding and the concept's not new per se but just horribly documented - or they expect people to know all the ffmpeg lingo: https://github.com/rigaya/NVEnc/issues/249 i guess at the end of the day, everything is just a glorified ffmpeg interface, and we'll all eventually be writing out the full commands eventually to do it properly whether we like it or not. maybe we'll even be using the correct color profile on youtube one day but let's not get too excited
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Oct 12, 2022 21:28
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Has anyone seen a review for the base MSI Gaming Trio (not the X; the MSRP-priced model from MSI)? There has been a very suspicious lack of reviews for the MSRP model 4090s and while we can't know for sure, it makes me think the more expensive models offer only a marginal benefit at best. This may be like the Ampere launch where graphics card manufacturers were required to produce a relatively small number of MSRP cards. The AIBs stopped making those cards almost immediately as far as I could tell at the time, probably due to smaller margins. In the end it turned out that the beefy coolers weren't that big of a selling point unless you were really into overclocking. Of course by the time that happened people were so happy to snap up ANY card that paying 100-400 $ extra for marginally better materials and cooling was the least of anyone's problems. I guess what I'm saying is that buying an MSRP 4090 could be the move, but we'll see. Taima fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:30
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I think they're all 1-2 fps of each other, a margin of error. Thermals seems similar as well.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:37
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I suppose it's easier to post jokes from the outside world in SA now without being told to go back to eBaumsWorld, so... Agreed posted:I think some general unease over the progression of late stage capitalism is creeping into the GPU discussion, honestly, yeah there's a lot of poo poo that is wildly unsustainable and it's just a matter of time until poo poo hits the fan, but in particular high end PC hardware at the time of its launch has never been value-oriented. People are saying the PS5 is already running out of runway as a 4K console, which makes me feel better that I only still own 1080p televisions (I watch most of my TV and movies on computer screens and tablets) and decided that this console generation would be about seeing 1080p games finally running at 60 FPS than anything else. And yes, at the same time, this forum's demographics is millennials, so we're not old enough to remember the Carter years when this sort of inflation last happened, but at the same time many make more money than the occasional bright eyed, bushy tailed 24 year old registrant who has not gotten a 20% pay increase in the past few years. EDIT: The bigger problem is not that the equivalent of a $900 card is now $1200. It's that the equivalent to a $250 card is now $400. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:44
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Two pass encoding has been around forever, and it's the same thing as multipass although if you were authoring professional content maybe you could benefit from doing more than two. It's a way to use bitrate more efficiently with VBR and a controlled average bitrate. It's just doing a pass to determine how much bitrate you really NEED at a given point, and then another pass to encode greedily where you gain less benefit from using your bits and using them more where you do benefit from it. For a given average bitrate, 2-pass is WAY slower but gives better quality. Don't ask me what the half and quarter poo poo do, though. It's possible it can help improve latency by reducing the time spent on the first pass?
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Oct 12, 2022 21:46
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Vintersorg posted:I think my main issue is if this is the ceiling for the best of the best - for now - what will be the 4070? 4060? I can't quite articulate it but telling people to just buy used/old things is the exact problem. The only ones who can afford the new thing(s) are those who are very well off. You can use a GPU for a decade and still be cool so idk why buying a 3080 for $700 is telling people to buy "old" things when they're still being manufactured and sold and the 4070 doesn't even exist yet. RDNA 3 isn't even released yet. You're trying to compare market conditions that won't exist for 6 months to market conditions now and refusing to acknowledge that "new" things include affordable cards from the last generation still being manufactured and sold that will continue to have meaningful value to performance for generations to come. Taima posted:I would argue that the definition of high end has changed substantially in terms of the percentage of consumers by demographic who can afford it. I agree with this but I think the reason it's changed so much is because people have found actual work to do with GPUS (science poo poo, mining even) that justifies the existence of parts enthusiasts would otherwise never create appropriate demand for. In a world without these demands maybe the top "4080" here would be our 4090, sure. CatelynIsAZombie fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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Oct 12, 2022 21:52
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I'd say that pricey computer parts are probably one of the less conspicuous acts of consumption even relative to other electronics. People buy them on the basis of concrete performance improvements in a way that's not true for audio equipment for example I'm surprised there isn't more of a luxury high end market catering to whales for stuff like PC cases tbh
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Oct 12, 2022 21:54
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Taima posted:I would argue that the definition of high end has changed substantially in terms of the percentage of consumers by demographic who can afford it. A quick look at some data doesn't really bear this out. Median household income, 2013: $52,000 Price of 2 SLI'd 780tis - $1,400 MHI/GPU ratio: 37:1 Median household income, 2022: $70,000 Price of 1 4090 - $1,599 MHI/GPU ratio: 43:1
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Oct 12, 2022 21:55
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Taima posted:
You should absolutely buy an MSRP card, unless you want an AIO or like the aesthetic look of one of the other cards enough to pay for it. Performance will be identical. The MSI Gaming Trio and Gaming X Trio are literally the exact same card and cooler, with a very slightly different bios flashed that doesn't actually do anything beyond the spec sheet.
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Oct 12, 2022 21:58
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shrike82 posted:I'm surprised there isn't more of a luxury high end market catering to whales for stuff like PC cases tbh That's the custom keyboard dorks. $1600 GPU? try $1600 keyboard
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Oct 12, 2022 22:01
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Paul MaudDib posted:But a hardware encoder being able to beat heavily squished software encoded x264/x265 would be useful. It ties you into AV1 capable hardware on the decode side too, older phones/laptops/etc won’t be able to play it, but it’s potentially a nice codec for an initial capture. Bandwidth/bitrate being roughly equivalent to compute overhead while also relating to the costs of the uploader (as a streamer or whatever) or the distributor (twitch youtube etc) means that any savings in quality is really nice for everyone involved. Less hardware required for similar output, get more from limited bandwidth, storage even gets smaller if that's what you want. This is probably gonna have even more relative impact on non titan overkill level cards since it has the chance to bump down what level of card you need to get for x level of encoding performance. The >12gb vram cards in 40 series do have dual NVENC controllers but idk if that's gonna be nearly as important on the kind of resolutions we're likely to see twitch and youtube actually support like 1080 and 1440.
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Oct 12, 2022 22:06
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Taima posted:Has anyone seen a review for the base MSI Gaming Trio (not the X; the MSRP-priced model from MSI)?
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Oct 12, 2022 22:08
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distortion park posted:740eur for a 6900xt is a very good deal right? There's not some hidden catch here? https://www.caseking.de/asus-radeon-rx-6900-xt-tuf-o16g-16384-mb-gddr6-gcas-420.html the hidden catch is that RDNA3 comes out very soon meaning that even a substantial discount on a 6900XT probably won't be good value (because the 6900XT was never good value to begin with) unless AMD's prices are as stupid as Nvidia's are
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Oct 12, 2022 22:14
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I think what makes it really hard to compare GPU prices is Moore's law. Performance upgrades are, in terms of uplift, much more modest than they were twenty years ago. In addition, subsequent generations of games run on a much wider range of GPUs than they used to. , Finally, raw performance means much less now compared to then when it comes to achieving a beautiful picture. I'm personally miffed that an uplift of 50 or 70 percent is seen as improvement when in my teens that was just the natural result of technological progression - in other words, the bare minimum. On the other hand, you can buy a GPU now and it will be fine for certainly three, probably five, and maybe even more years. I think we have arrived at a point where having the bleeding edge does not in itself provide a tangible advantage anymore. Twenty years ago you could always use more raw performance. These days, there is a certain card you need for 1080p, one for 1440p, and one for 4k/VR. And that's it. The market will respond to that and adapt in a way that is acceptable for gamers. After all, they are paying. If 90 percent of gamers sit on a certain performance level or below, games will adapt to that level. Simply because upgrading is a much bigger deal noe than it was earlier. If that sort of market doesn't provide enough stimulation for PC builders, there is an entire universe of things that modern hardware allows you to build. Like instead of going high end, why not build a really appealing SFF system? That delivers exactly the performance I need, running cool, and sitting on my (small) desk? It's a shame that having top tier hardware has become a luxury that many can't or won't afford anymore (like me). But the computer gaming market is so absurdly massive - companies will figure out nice things they can sell to us. Lord Stimperor fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Oct 12, 2022 |
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